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Help Me To Understand This.....

posted 5/12/2009 11:09:15 AM |
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  ragtopcookie

When i write a blog.....its usually lite and good in nature.......but theres something thats been bothering me for the last few weeks in the news.....first of all....i really dont want to start some kind of debate here.....this will just be my personal feelings about this.....but of course...as with all my blog posts......everybody can comment and i will not judge.....i read this morning that they finally got john demjanjuk to germany for trial.....for those not following this...hes been accused of being a nazi guard in WW 2 and was responsible for 29000 deaths.......from what i understand.....they have tried to get this done before...but somehow it all fell apart in court....but then...i read that somehow they cleared it so they can deport him out of the US.... and now hes in germany about to stand trial....they say they have been looking for him for six decades.....hes been right here in the united states long enough to be retired from some auto plant.....they say hes the last of them that is still alive.....and that putting him on trial is whats best for everybody.....but heres my problem.....just how in the hell did he get over to this country ...and how was he able to be living amoung us without anybody finding him sooner.....and even if he is guilty of what they he is.....after all these years...what purpose will it be to take this old man ...and in poor health i understand,....and pariade him before the entire world for everybody to see that justice prevails......im not saying if he is who they say he is...that he shoulnt be punished....i know that what hes accused of is some of the baddest crimes ever to be apart of our history.....but even so.......it sure seems to me that they are doing their best to get this over with and put a rope around this old mans neck as soon as possible......it seems so railroaded to me somehow........i know when i was younger...my thought would be great......hang him and let the world know that you cant excape justice.....but where is this mans rights to begin with if they are wrong?......please.....help me to understand whats going on here.....cookie

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Comments:
gunn12fan

May 12 @ 11:14AM  
No way to ever really understand it bud I don't agree with what they did to him either i mean the gentalman is just way to old to even think about even wanting to be there and there going to do this to the 90 year old man
debbz32

May 12 @ 11:24AM  
Sorry, I don't understand either...
ANGRY_MUPPET

May 12 @ 11:46AM  
they are doing it for the victims.,their children,brothers,sisters,moms,dads,cousins,aunts,uncles and friends,.if i was killed in the camps.,i would bless them from the afterlife for NOT giving up.,and one more time the naysayers of the holocaust will see that it DID happen...

*lest we forget*
LipGlossQueen9

May 12 @ 11:53AM  
^ Yes, prove to a small portion of the population who are Holocaust deniers (and that is really a small portion) that the Holocaust happened by making an example out of a sick old man.

ANGRY_MUPPET

May 12 @ 12:02PM  
if one of my family member were killed by a NAZI tyrant in those camps,.,i would hunt them down till hell froze over.,and if they were dead.,i would dig them up and put their evil bones on trial .,i would NEVER give up

Muslims of the world dont think the holocaust happened.,and say so too,.,they are a very large population
LipGlossQueen9

May 12 @ 12:20PM  
You're a Christian. Jesus would forgive.
electricman

May 12 @ 12:36PM  
Regardless of Faith, this man openly, willfully, participated in one of the greatest horrors mankind has ever witnessed.What we do to him on earth is nothing compared to what will happen to him after he dies. Personally I don't believe a death sentence would solve anything in his case since he is so old and ill. But to spend the remainder of his days in prison pondering his actions and perhaps repenting might be better. Admitting his participation and asking forgiveness in his final hours, whether it be enough of a display of remorse or not in the victims eyes, at least it would lend some hope to his character and ultimate destiny, and be a lesson to those who may feel the urge to travel down the path of wickedness..
AverageJoe

May 12 @ 12:38PM  
I agree with you cookie. It was an ugly war, and I dont see what good can come from digging up the past. In addition, there are probably few (if any) living witnesses, who could give an accurate first hand account of what transpired nearly 70 years ago. The man will meet his maker soon, and he like all of us will have to account for his actions in this world... probably not a comforting prospect for him.
eastham

May 12 @ 12:50PM  
First of all, there is no statute of limitations on murder. So I would ask you that if this man were responsible for the murder of a member of your family, would you shrug your shoulders and ask what good would do to prosecute an old man? Probably not.

This is not the first time that the US has sought to deport "Ivan the Terrible", Demjanjuck's nickname at Sobibor death camp. His first conviction was overturned on a technicality and there was a great deal of pressure put on his deportation by his Congressman, and his citizenship was temporarily destroyed.

As to how could a Nazi war criminal live in the US? It would not be too difficult. Many people came to the US following the war as "displaced persons." This is how Demjanjuck came here. As my mother would tell you, there were most definitely Nazis in this group, at least within the population that initially settled in Waterbury, CT. They kept apart from the other DP's, which despite their various ethnicities was a very close group.
observed50

May 12 @ 1:09PM  
Cookie> They've been trying to 'nail' Demjanjuk since he was first deported to Israel in 1986, and then tried in 1988. Holocaust survivors identified Demjanjuk as "Ivan the Terrible," an SS guard at the extermination camp at Treblinka, who committed murder and "acts of extraordinarily savage violence against camp prisoners". He was convicted of crimes against humanity.

Israel's highest court overturned his conviction in 1993 due to a finding of a 'reasonable doubt' as to whether he was the "Ivan the Terrible," and he was returned to the United States.

He was later tried again, 2001, on charges that he had served as a guard in camps in occupied Poland and another camp in Germany. In 2005, his deportation was again ordered , but he stayed here in the US as no country would agree to accept him.

So I don't think there is a railroad, as much as a platform of people at the station who've been waiting a long time for this passenger. I remember watching his news back in the 80s because he was so close to home being from Cleveland. Made one wonder how many genocidal maniacs live among one. This was pre-Rwanda and pre-Serbia, in which the question could easily be answered...all around one.

Long history...justice pursued a long time...and with the change in forensics...this seems like a long time to find a participant in mass murder. But for back then...it's just part of the challenge.
imlost2

May 12 @ 1:17PM  
I think if you take Time out of the equation crime is still crime. I don't think age should have anything to do with the deed. If your family member was murdered and years passed would you allow the murderer free with time being the only factor? To some that were in those camps it might seem like only yesterday as memories are still so vivid, they suffer nightmares still I bet of the torture. This is a tough call to some but I bet not to those involved. Take care Lost
Solitaire

May 12 @ 1:47PM  
I think if you take the emotional imagery of him being a "sick old man" in a wheelchair out of it, it would be less sympathetic. Yet when Treblinka and Sobibor were being run at full strength, so was he. He was a young, healthy, vital man of 22 or 24 years old, and a SS prison guard at Nazi concentration camps responsible for the deaths of many "sick, old men", frail grandmothers, mothers with newborn babies in their arms, children too sick from starvation or dysentary from living in a concentration camp to be good for slave labor, husbands, wives, sons and daughters that had been raped or tortured for war "science".

That he is now an old man is only because he hid well for many years, and had good lawyers later. The 850,000 people at Treblinka extermination camp, or even the 200,000 people at Sobibor extermination camp were unable to hide and had no legal representation.
Tunes4u

May 12 @ 1:53PM  
Imagine the heavy load he has carried all his life since those terrible days.....always looking over his shoulder...always waiting for that knock on the door, that phone call....

I bet he has never truly enjoyed a carefree day in all his life.
Yes...he worked and "lived" within our midst...but he never really knew freedom. Or peace.

And that is still not punishment enough. Justice cries out and demands he pay for the crimes he did. For the blood spilled.

His time left on earth is short. The death sentence has been his pathetic life...... carried out and dogging him for a long time. We have no need to kill this man with a hanging or what ever. He will die soon enough.

Like someone else said above....he has a very short time to think about the things he has done.

Remember..." For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged, and with the same measure you use, it will be measured back to you."

I personally want no part in the killing of this man nor any other. But he should never be a free man either.

Maybe we should put him in prison, forgive him, and dust our feet of him.

Let him and the Good Lord work out their differences....we really don't need to do anymore than we've done.

Put him in prison, and let it go.

Just my own thoughts on the matter....

Peace....

sweet5red

May 12 @ 2:21PM  
Imagine the heavy load he has carried all his life since those terrible days.....always looking over his shoulder...always waiting for that knock on the door, that phone call....

I bet he has never truly enjoyed a carefree day in all his life.
Yes...he worked and "lived" within our midst...but he never really knew freedom. Or peace.

And that is still not punishment enough. Justice cries out and demands he pay for the crimes he did. For the blood spilled.

His time left on earth is short. The death sentence has been his pathetic life...... carried out and dogging him for a long time. We have no need to kill this man with a hanging or what ever. He will die soon enough.

Like someone else said above....he has a very short time to think about the things he has done.

Remember..." For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged, and with the same measure you use, it will be measured back to you."

I personally want no part in the killing of this man nor any other. But he should never be a free man either.

and he really never was a free man.. as you said tunes he was always looking over his shoulder.. he will answer to a higher power....sweet N Louisiana

Lovinheart445

May 12 @ 2:42PM  
Ditto Tunes. My thoughts exactally.
eastham

May 12 @ 2:42PM  
Eek...bad typo in my last post as I wrote one thing and then made a major revision...His citizenship was temporarily restored, not destroyed.

Demjanjuk may or may not have spent his life feeling guilty. If the reports of the behavior of Ivan the Terrible are accurate (and there were multiple reports), Demjanjuk may be a sociopath and incapable of feeling remorse or guilt. The men, women and children he killed could have meant no more to him than ants under his heel. It is hard for normal, feeling people to get their brains around a sociopath -- heck if we understood them, we'd be like them!

Demjanjuk may now go on trial, depending on his health, for the crimes he is accused of committing many years ago.
ttomtarr

May 12 @ 3:29PM  
I read the BBC news daily, and some others too.

There is not a week goes by that there is some rehashing of the "holocaust". For some unknown reason, some people want to endlessly pick the scab off this sixty year old wound. Some claim it is to keep it from happening again, but there is no bemoaning more recent, slaughters, with greater numbers of people slain, there are zero mentions of the eight greater slaughters that have occurred since the second world war.

There is a cry to hunt down every last German guard, but not even a mention of the members of the Judenrat, those collaborators who compiled the lists of who was to be selected for the camps, and who handed their fellow Jews to the SS guards, at times transporting them in the death trains to the very gates of the prison. The indignation is quite selective.

The very walls of the camp at Auschwitz are crumbling with the erosion of time, returning to the earth. It is time to let the tragic memory of that horror die, following the generation of people who were the perpetrators and victims of those crimes. Our own energies can be be better spent helping the living in Darfur, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Gaza, Tibet, and other places where living people are being killed now, than in bemoaning victims long dead.

War is, in essence, each side doing terrible things to their enemies. We have lon ceased to speak of Japanese atrocities, and our own we have discreetly ignored. It is time to let it all crumble ii to the dust of time.
ragtopcookie

May 12 @ 4:04PM  
Well said my friend....and to everybody who has commented on my blog....i thank you....when its all said and done.....i still believe he deserves a fair trial.....before hes accused of what they say hes done.......just look at some of the comments posted here....i know its a touchy subject.....and if hes guilty..he should be punished.....and i wont cast any stones against this man until all the facts are in.....like i stated at the first of my blog.....i didnt want this to turn into a debate.....i just wanted to state the fact that this smells to hell.....and if any part of this is really true...thats where he deserves to be.....but it wont be by my hand........cookie
JenRNinOhio

May 12 @ 4:49PM  
Of course the local news has been following this very closely. His home is in the suburb next to mine. There was news video of him screaming & writhing in apparent agony while being taken from his home in a wheelchair a couple of weeks ago. ... Video that was obtained because his son-in-law had invited the media into their home to record the event.

Another piece of video was recorded without an invitation:

"The Sick Old Man"

Go. Have the trial. If found guilty, then a life sentence ... Life sentence? What? A few years? And if he WAS looking over his shoulder all these years.... Is that a sufficient punishment? He lived in a great neighborhood in a very nice house with friends & family around him. He worked, made money, went to church ...

pffft.


MrPaul

May 12 @ 5:04PM  
It is sad for EVERYONE involved. The man has been tried twice and now they want to try him a 3rd time He is old and his time is almost gone. It doesn't really mater what happens, the only judge that will count is when he stands before God, and God will be the judge of ALL of us
Tanikogirl

May 12 @ 5:28PM  
Well said TUNES4U, is it not time to let wounds heal, Carrying hatred in your heart does not hurt a perpetrator, only hurts the person carrying the hatred.Perhaps if there was more forgiveness in the world, what a better place it would be. I agree with you as well cookie, nice to see there are some balanced opinions.Saying that I do feel for those who lost their loved ones it must of been terrible. Just my opinion.
Wing_Zero_75

May 12 @ 6:31PM  
Let him be hung. I have followed this case and have read up on what has happened. To any of those that think he is too old or frail, ask yourself about those he murdered and probably enjoyed. Were they not frail and weak? Did he care? I do not believe so, and would put my left nut on it. There is an old song by Anthrax, actually 2 Intro to Reality and Belly of the Beast, about the nazi regime. Also the book Mans Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl. The first part he talks about his time in the nazi death camps. There are other books out there by survivors that I think people should read, maybe then people wouldnt be so forgiving. I am so glad this country got that stain out.

Larry
legacy1

May 12 @ 7:02PM  
Don't forget also but it is kinda of under the radar...some of the members of the Khmer Rouge are finally going to trial after the crimes against their own people in 1975-1979 I believe...anyone remember hearing of the Killing Fields?

The older of those f***ers is 76...to bad they couldn't nail that asswipe Pol Pot(The Leader) before he snuck off and had amnesty in Thailand till his death.
ttomtarr

May 12 @ 10:52PM  
Last I heard, trials were still held in the court room, not in the media.

By our law, the man is innocent until proven guilty,

We also have a law against being tried more than once for the same crime.

Or do those rights just apply when it is ourselves being prosecuted?
ttomtarr

May 12 @ 10:52PM  
Last I heard, trials were still held in the court room, not in the media.

By our law, the man is innocent until proven guilty,

We also have a law against being tried more than once for the same crime.

Or do those rights just apply when it is ourselves being prosecuted?
VaPeppermintPatti

May 12 @ 11:12PM  
Just remember that God does NOT forgive murderers...i.e. story of Cain and Abel. Only sin God doesn't forgive.

Unless you lost family in the war as I did at Auschwitz, then you really have no opinion. You don't know what it is like to have your family decimated, no living relatives whatsoever on my grandfather's side and few left of my grandmother's, and to have your family sent off to the camps or gunned down in their towns and villages. You live with the stories all your life and the few remaining that were there never, ever let you forget what they have been through. The upcoming generations should never be allowed to forget nor forgive such horrendous crimes.

No, I'm not Jewish, but a Catholic Yugslav and the Nazis went after anyone and everyone they could who tried to escape or fight them in the underground.
travelwoman

May 14 @ 12:50AM  
I haven't followed the story on the news, and so I'm not sure under what law this man is supposed to get punished. Americans instantly assume that there is the death penalty. But if he'll be judged under present German law, there is no death penalty, only prison "forever"....

As for the understanding.... if we want any justice system to truly work, we shouldn't be disturbed by wheelchairs and such, if the person to be judged is indeed a horrible criminal.

I have read a study on the mental/emotional state of yet another "manager" of one of the extermination camps during the Nazi time. That particular person had no remorse..... He may not have understood the wrong he had done. Indeed, he had done his "job" very "successfully" = as requested in the job description. Anything beyond that didn't seem to touch that person.
And so he was a terrible sociopath..... Maybe they all were....
If they were not "sociopaths" (= with something not turning right in the machinery of their mind and emotions...), then they must be/have been pure evil.....

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