hi all,
i was watching the news last night and it was reported that the infamous "Joe the Plumber", (who since the election, has been proven to be a republican party hack and is now doing the conservative "lecture" circuit) said that the Founding Fathers:
knew socialism doesn’t work. They knew communism doesn’t work.
Hey moron... Socialism/Communism did not exist at the time of the founding fathers. These ideologies did not come into existence until 50 years later. What a d*ck...
But that reminded me of a bigger problem i've noticed. Joe the Plumber being a stupid moron is one thing... but there are apparently alot of people who truly believe barak obama is a socialist. And that has to be the most insanely idiotic statement i've ever heard.
Now, first of all. I don't defend obama because i am a dem (or a liberal in general)... i don't consider myself either really. (I voted for ron paul in the last election if you must know) I defend him because i am anti-stupidity, not anti-conservative.
When you throw around a word like socialist and/or communist... that is a serious charge to make. So, you really should know what you are talking about. So, let's define socialism and communism...
Socialism
Any one of the various theories of economic organization advocating state or cooperative ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and a society characterized by equal opportunities/means for all individuals with a more egalitarian method of compensation based on the full product of the laborer.
Communism
A socioeconomic structure and political ideology that promotes the establishment of an egalitarian, classless, stateless society based on common ownership and control of the means of production and property in general.
Ok, so after reading this, if you still believe obama is a socialist and american is heading towards communism... please, you need to be examined by a doctor. I'm serious. You need to go to Vienna and be studied by a team of doctors actually. Where they watch your every move, studying you... LOL, sorry that was a joke.
But really, we have to stop making ridiculous accusations about people with which we disagree. And if we do, we need to make sure that they are based on facts. Extraordinary accusations require extraordinary evidence to back them up. And you don't have evidence, or very little evidence (like college term papers)... you just look silly.
And besides, with politicians, there is plenty to complain about without making things up. geez.
~cheers
Copy & paste to friend: (Click inside box; Ctrl + C to copy; Ctrl + V to paste)
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read more blogs!
Blogs by skyscraper948:
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MrPaul
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Jun 30 @ 9:24AM
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Ok, so after reading this, if you still believe obama is a socialist and american is heading towards communism... please, you need to be examined by a doctor. I'm serious  Dont forget obama boy walks on water to    Whatever you smoking you should share it with the great people here on MD 
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ttomtarr
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Jun 30 @ 9:25AM
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Socialism/Communism did exist at the time of the founding fathers. These ideologies did not come into existence until 50 years later.
Try studying the first 100 years of Christianity.
Russianism (blend of communism and Russian politics) did not exist then, but there is a long history of communes, stretching way back before 1776.
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Nightowl001
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Jun 30 @ 9:42AM
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I've been saying for some time that there are enough things to criticize that Obama is actually DOING and/or proposing, that there is no need to just make crap up to try to slam him. The more certain people do that, the more people like you, who isn't an Obama supporter, wind up in the position of being an Obama defender. Of course, they then turn around and claim that because you defend the man against complete nonsense allegations, that you must be "blinded by his light" or some such crap, leaving you defending yourself and him. Meanwhile, none of the ISSUES get examined and discussed, or any problems actually solved. There isn't even a rational analysis of proposed solutions going on.
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skyscraper948
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Jun 30 @ 9:45AM
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I've been saying for some time that there are enough things to criticize that Obama is actually DOING and/or proposing, that there is no need to just make crap up to try to slam him. The more certain people do that, the more people like you, who isn't an Obama supporter, wind up in the position of being an Obama defender. Of course, they then turn around and claim that because you defend the man against complete nonsense allegations, that you must be "blinded by his light" or some such crap, leaving you defending yourself and him. Meanwhile, none of the ISSUES get examined and discussed, or any problems actually solved. There isn't even a rational analysis of proposed solutions going on.
Exactly. Trust me, it pains me to have to come on here everyday and defend a guy i didn't vote for and frankly think is a creep.
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thenewguy295
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Jun 30 @ 10:09AM
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When you throw around a word like socialist and/or communist... that is a serious charge to make.
Did you have a problem with the people calling Bush a Nazi? That's a serious charge to make too.
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observed50
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Jun 30 @ 10:11AM
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Good luck with this effort....
There has to be boogiemen in social discourse over scarce resources so you can divert the attention of people to chimeras while you ransack their society..."LOOK!!! OVER THERE!!! SOCIALISTS!!!"
Keep people riled up about the inane and the made-up, keep them angry and arguing about the absurd...and then keep working to align the 'new world order' in your favor, that they have so been led to believe will keep them safe from the boogiemen.
Birth certificates....boogieboogieboogie!
College term papers...boogieboogieboogie!
Passports....boogieboogieboogie!
Muslim...boogieboogieboogie!
Domestic terrorist...boogieboogieboogie!
Terrorist...boogieboogieboogie!
Socialist...boogieboogieboogie!
Fascist...boogieboogieboogie!
Inexperienced...boogieboogieboogie!
Traitor...boogieboogieboogie!
"LOOK!! OVER THERE!"
"Aaaaiiieegh! AND OVER THERE!" *GASP!*
AND OVER THERE TOO! *OH NO!!!!! NOT THAT!!!!*
boogieboogieboogie! boogieboogieboogie! boogieboogieboogie!
Human beings trump Chicken Little every day of the week....
"THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!!! AAAAAIIIIEEEEEGGGGHHH!"
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legacy1
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Jun 30 @ 10:13AM
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Hey moron... Socialism/Communism did exist at the time of the founding fathers. These ideologies did not come into existence until 50 years later. What a d*ck...
Agreed but the sheep will continue to see him and cling to everyword the idiot has to say...Baaa baaaa!
Can't wait to see how fixed news will spin this one that again we are persecuting a hard working man and blah blah blah...ah f*** you Sean Hannity! 
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skyscraper948
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Jun 30 @ 10:22AM
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Did you have a problem with the people calling Bush a Nazi? That's a serious charge to make too.
Yes, I did.... Bush was no Nazi/Hitler. Hitler served in WW1, he was no coward like Bush.
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Josuha
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Jun 30 @ 10:29AM
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Your right, Obama is not a socialist.
He's following the agenda of Bush..and others.
It's called 'fascism'.
"The word fascism has come to mean any system of government resembling Mussolini's, that
exalts nation and sometimes race above the individual,
uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship to forcibly suppress political opposition,
engages in severe economic and social regimentation.
engages in corporatism,[1] (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?tocId=219369) "
The above definition was of fascist countries of the past.
The only twist, is the 'racial; aspect of the philosophy..
"Other notable characteristics of fascism described by Britt which are directly produced by corporatism are:
1.The suppression of organized labor (organized labor is the bane of corporations and the only real check on corporate power other than government or the legal system);
2.Supremacy of the military (it is necessary to produce and protect corporate profits abroad and threats from abroad);
3.Cronyism and governmental corruption (it is very beneficial to have ex-corporate employees run the agencies or make the laws that are supposed to regulate or check corporations);
3. Fraudulent elections (especially those where corporations run the machinery of elections and count the votes or where judges decide their outcomes);
4. Nationalism (disdain for other countries that might promote individual rights);
5. Obsession with national security (anti-corporatists are a security risk to the corporate status quo);
6. Control of the media (propaganda works);
7. Obsession with crime and punishment (anti-corporatists belong in jail); and
8. Disdain for intellectuals and the arts (these people see corporatism for what it is and are highly individualistic).
"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power."
Benito Mussolini
So you see, while your looking at the left hand, the right hand is the one with the card. 
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jcarolina
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Jun 30 @ 10:50AM
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Observed50 has it figured out, which is what happens when you read books instead of a TV screen.
No offense Sky, but Obama and the majority of world leaders are nothing but talking heads. The real powers that be will never show themselves to the public. It wouldn't further their agendas, and that's what it's about. They aren't in it for fame. Not the kind we recognize. Social conditioning is a bitch. A powerful, intoxicating bitch. Thing is, it's only a bitch to the ones who aren't intoxicated. To the rest, it's a way of life, until it becomes the bitch it truly is.
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Josuha
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Jun 30 @ 11:01AM
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No offense Sky, but Obama and the majority of world leaders are nothing but talking heads. The real powers that be will never show themselves to the public.
Go to the head of the class.
The United States is now officially a 'corporate' partner.
Both parties have embraced the same philosophy of 'corporatism' or 'fascism'.
This includes everything that goes along with it.
This is a worldwide economic and political agenda., not just an American one.
This has been slowly creeping in to our system since the late 80's.
Some place it as early as 1913 when the United States gave private bankers control of our currency under a fiat system.
It's just while Americans were arguing about democrat and republican, no one was paying attention.
Until now, when the secound phase of corporatism takes effect.
Destruction of the middle class and institution of nationalism and the state in it's place.
This started with Bush Sr.
The illusion of 'parties' is for the people.
If anyone thinks there is going to be change, they're blowing bubbles.
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coalingagirl94
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Jun 30 @ 11:09AM
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WOW is all i got to say about this one. Yeah Joe the plumber is a douche though.
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skyscraper948
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Jun 30 @ 11:12AM
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WOW is all i got to say about this one. Yeah Joe the plumber is a douche though.
What? lol... is flip a Joe the Plumber fan too?
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POPO
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Jun 30 @ 11:20AM
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Obama has declared that he believes every person has a "right" to health care. The Socialist Party USA believes every person has a "right" to health care.
Obama believes that labor unions should be allowed to organize without a secret ballot. The Socialist Party USA calls for unions to be recognized without a secret ballot. (Hear Obama's words here.)
The Socialist Party USA recognizes the "right" of adequate housing for everyone. Obama trained ACORN (Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now) workers to secure mortgages for unqualified people in sufficient numbers to collapse the housing and home-financing industries.
The Socialist Party USA believes that "capitalism is fundamentally incompatible" with socialism. For years, Obama worked in Chicago through the Annenberg Challenge, along with Bill Ayers, to funnel more than $50 million to anti-capitalist education projects. In November 2006, Ayers traveled to Venezuela to speak at Hugo Chavez's Education Forum where he railed against "the failings of capitalist education," and praised the "Bolivarian Revolution and the profound reforms in education made by Hugo Chavez."
The Socialist Party USA believes in open borders and six-months residency as the only requirement for U.S. citizenship. Obama marched with illegal aliens in Chicago in support of "comprehensive" immigration reform. Listen to Obama's promises to La Raza in 2007.
The Socialist Party USA calls for an immediate withdrawal from Iraq. Obama says, "I will end this war," with never a reference to "winning" or "victory."
The Socialist Party USA calls for the "unconditional disarmament" by the United States. Obama has promised to dramatically reduce defense spending. Listen to his words here.
The Socialist Party USA calls for a "livable guaranteed annual income." Obama trained ACORN members to conduct "Living Wage" campaigns in cities around the country.
The Socialist Party USA calls for a "steeply graduated" tax policy to redistribute wealth. Obama has promised to increase the tax burden on the rich to redistribute wealth to the poor. He revealed his philosophy when answering a question from Joe the plumber, who complained that he was being taxed for his success. Obama said:
It's not that I want to punish your success. I just want to make sure that everybody who is behind you, that they've got a chance for success too. My attitude is that if the economy's good for folks from the bottom up, it's gonna be good for everybody. I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody.
This list of comparisons could be quite long. This is sufficient to reveal an unmistakable similarity between Obama's political beliefs and the beliefs of the Socialist Party USA. The tragedy is that Obama's supporters don't care. In fact, many of his supporters are delighted that he promises to usher in a new era of socialism, and push the memory of capitalism further into history.
Socialists, who are in perpetual revolution, who believe that the end justifies the means, have worked through educational institutions, non-government organizations such as ACORN and by electing socialists to public office to silence teaching the virtues of free enterprise, capitalism, private property, individual responsibility and personal achievement. For nearly two generations, students have been fed a steady diet of socialism under a variety of disguises, including Outcome Based Education, No Child Left Behind, School-to-Work and a host of other "feel good" slogans.
Students and young adults no longer know why capitalism is better than socialism. Like Obama, young people really believe that when government redistributes wealth, "it's good for everybody." They do not realize that wealth redistribution is no substitute for wealth creation. They are never taught that the only way to create wealth is for an individual to combine his energy and intellect with resources to produce a product that improves his life, or for which someone else is willing to pay.
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skyscraper948
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Jun 30 @ 11:29AM
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POPO...
Dear sir, believing that healthcare for all is a human right is not part of socialist ideology. Now, If you said that Obama wanted to do away with private insurance all together and that he wanted to US government to control all aspects of the healthcare system... that would be socialist. Anything less is simply "liberal". there is a difference. The UN has accepted access to quality and affordable healthcare IS a human right. If you disagree, thats fine, but its not "socialist".
I could go on, but i think your post merely confuses "liberal" with "socialist" ideologies.
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Josuha
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Jun 30 @ 11:31AM
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Obama has declared that he believes every person has a "right" to health care. The Socialist Party USA believes every person has a "right" to health care.
This is where party pundits miss it.
The National Socialist Workers Party, what we refer to as 'NAZI', has socialist ideals.
However, 'corporatism' was the main vehicle of the party as it was with the goverment of Italy under Mussolini.
The POLITICAL battle fought between Hitler and Stalin was NOT a battle against socialism.
It was how it was to be accomplished.
By the 'state'..
Or by..
The 'state' and 'corporations'..
This is the kind of disinformation that is bing passed along by party pundits.
BOTH parties have embraced fascism.
The only fight, is how much 'state' and 'corporate' control there will be.
Like the Germans, Americans can be easily manipulated by retorical bullsh*t while losing the ideals of their country.
"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials
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ttomtarr
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Jun 30 @ 11:48AM
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The key to understanding the role of the German people in WW! and WW2 is understanding the trememdous trust and and faith they had in official leadership.
It was this bliind faith in leaders that got them into so much trouble.
Think about that before making a godling of any US president !
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Josuha
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Jun 30 @ 12:05PM
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The key to understanding the role of the German people in WW! and WW2 is understanding the trememdous trust and and faith they had in official leadership.
"Now more than ever before, the people are responsible for the character of their Congress. If that body be ignorant, reckless and corrupt, it is because the people tolerate ignorance, recklessness and corruption. If it be intelligent, brave and pure, it is because the people demand these high qualities to represent them in the national legislature.... If the next centennial does not find us a great nation ... it will be because those who represent the enterprise, the culture, and the morality of the nation do not aid in controlling the political forces."
James Garfield, the twentieth president of the United States, 1877
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
Thomas Jefferson to Charles Yancey, 1816
"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
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musicianfriend
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Jun 30 @ 1:33PM
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OMG...the more you talk...the more ....how can I put this....the more uninformed you look..
I feel sorry for you..you have no clue.....
Obama was raised in a communist family...aka his grandparents...
His mentor from 10 yrs. to 18 yrs was a communists...a member of the CPUSA....Communist Party USA....
He hung out with them man for years..
Davis is from Chicago (ever wonder how obama eneded up in Chicago?)
Obama connected up with Davis's freinds from the Arts community..a communist front..(Obama gave alot of money to the Arts in the Porkulous bill...HHHMmm isnt that a coincedence.)
You see sir..you are very uninformed and have no clue whats really happening around you and the history of this man Obama..
But its more than Dems and Reps..but a much bigger agenda is being put into place..
Do you know ANYTHING about all that?
If you dont...I would suggest you read and investigate..cause its not going to be fun...and your man...Obama is the horse leading the charge right now!
Dont be like a bunch of fleas riding on the back of a dirty dog...get out there....read....investigate..educate yourselves...
Put down the Beer and Pizza...turn off that football game..
YOur country is and has been for decades, under attack...and if you dont know this...that should make you even more alarmed..
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skyscraper948
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Jun 30 @ 1:42PM
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ha! musician... are you supreme's evil twin. geez.. let me try to talk some sense to you...
I feel sorry for you..you have no clue.....
Obama was raised in a communist family...aka his grandparents...
Communism is not a genetic disorder you inherit from your grandparents. Sh*t, my father voted for George W. Bush.... twice! Do you think that makes me a Republican. Sorry, thats just a dumb statement.
If you dont...I would suggest you read and investigate..cause its not going to be fun...and your man...Obama is the horse leading the charge right now!
ummmmmm, Obama's not "my man". If you had read my post you would have seen taht i voted for Ron Paul... Not Obama. I only defend him when people make stupid remarks like, well... he's a communist because he hung out with communists. Like i said in the post... extraordinary accusations require extraordinary evidence, of which of heard none from you so far. ~cheers
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musicianfriend
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Jun 30 @ 1:43PM
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The socialized health care is not for Americans..but more so for the illegal immigrants..
LaRaza let the cat out of the bag...
75% of Americans ALREADY have health care..
The people who will be in the socialized medicine will be
75% the children of illegals.
49% will be the adults..
I really dont wish to tax mine and my childrens future away to support the invaders from another country..They can go home..
Also..remember this very very important fact...
These illegals are here to provide CHEAP labor for the corporations and the greedy...thus pushing Americans out of jobs...
Even the farming jobs...my friends are country people..I have heard many stories about their job loss when the influx of illegals came to pass.
THE HEALTH CARE BILL IS FOR ILLEGALS ...AND ALSO DESIGNED TO SEPERATE YOU FROM YOUR MONEY...THUS CRUSHING THE MIDDLE CLASS..
Wake up.
Quit believing all this crap coming out of this present administration..
They have lied and cheated all the way along..I just dont understand any loyatly to liars and cheats..
The American prisons are full of people who have commmitted crimes far less than these politicans who are traitors to their country and the American people..
They all deserve impeachment and a very long jail term..
Do you ever wonder why there is a Federal Bank..that is privately owned governing our money?
Or why the IRS is not a gov. agency. as well..therefore not under the Freedom of Information Act?
Secrecy....lies...deceptions...ITs been going on for years..and only now..are the people starting to smell the rats..
Thats why they have to try to take away our freedoms as soon as possible...
To subjugate us by taking away our freedom speech and gun rights..
Beware.....this agenda has been in the making since the turn of the century..and even before...but its greatly progressing as of late.starting with Bush Sr...Clinton..Bush Jr..and now Obama...
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kjac
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Jun 30 @ 1:47PM
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He's not a douche bag. He's just irrelevant. He was a marketing tool used to try to get McCain elected. And it worked as well as the catch phrases and mudslinging did.
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skyscraper948
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Jun 30 @ 1:50PM
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He's not a douche bag. He's just irrelevant.
He is irrelevant... to me. And you apparently. Which is fine... but people actually paid hard earned money to hear this clown and come out dumber than when they walked in. Making money off people fears. Therefore, I think he is a giant f*cking douche bag.
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observed50
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Jun 30 @ 1:51PM
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I'm sure there is someone out there who is working feverishly, connecting the dots in different pictures, books and puzzles, to connect Obama to the ...
Illuminati...
Free Masons...
Mafia...
Klingons...
Girl Scout Cookie Manufacturers...
Sirens...
Thelma and Louise...
and let's not forget...that deeply disgusting, threatening, Howdy Doody.
Grrrrrrr! Turn him into sawdust!
The list in the world of conspiracies and conspirers is infinite. He probably drank milk as a child...which goes to show he conspires with cattle to take over the world. He probably drank water, which attests to his conspiring with Neptune. He enjoys being outdoors a little too much, which points to his nefarious relationship to the ancient sun god, Ra.
I use to go to a church that use to read this book that said...
"..as you do to the least of these...you do to me." or something to that affect.
Looking back, I'm guessing they were probably reading Marx's Manifesto from the pulpit!!
Bunch of screaming commie terrorists! I should show em...turn em all in for being treasonous twits threatening these here United States of We'll Believe Most Anything...
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skyscraper948
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Jun 30 @ 1:54PM
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and let's not forget...that deeply disgusting, threatening, Howdy Doody.
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musicianfriend
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Jun 30 @ 4:00PM
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i was watching the news last night and it was reported that the infamous "Joe the Plumber", (who since the election, has been proven to be a republican party hack and is now doing the conservative "lecture" circuit) said that the Founding Fathers:
knew socialism doesn’t work. They knew communism doesn’t work.
Hey moron... Socialism/Communism did not exist at the time of the founding fathers. These ideologies did not come into existence until 50 years later. What a d*ck...
Oh Sky..again...you talk before you think...
Example....what was happening when the Pharaoh held the Jews captive...
No private property rights.
No freedom of speech rights
No weapons rights
Gave most of what they farmed to the 'gov', like in China
Not free to move about the country
Shall I go on?
Communism my friend is another word for SLAVERY..
Communism has been going on forever...its just that the word Slavery wasnt so popular anymore..so they changed the word to COMMUNISM..
Obama is a communist...He has always been around them his whole life...his mentor was a communist...his grandparents were communists..his associations are communists..his work mates were all communists.
In my circle of friends..there are no communists..
You are what you eat...
Guilty by association
Guitly by the bills hes trying to pass and already has passed.
The so called Stimulous bill will stimulate NOTHING...and by the time you realize this..many more will have lost homes and business's...
You know why? Because thats the plan....You think this year is economically bad...high unemployment...wait till next year...and I promise not to say "I told you so"...YOu have been brainwashed and it will take some time to sink into your head whats really going on..
Another fine example of commie ways...pit one group against another..
What the hell did Joe the Plumber ever do to you libs...ggggeessshhhh...you people are infested with hate...
Do you need more? Or are you just plain too stubborn to see the truth..
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skyscraper948
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Jun 30 @ 4:21PM
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O h Sky..again...you talk before you think...
Example....what was happening when the Pharaoh held the Jews captive...
No private property rights.
No freedom of speech rights
No weapons rights
Gave most of what they farmed to the 'gov', like in China
Not free to move about the country
Shall I go on?
Communism my friend is another word for SLAVERY..
Communism has been going on forever...its just that the word Slavery wasnt so popular anymore..so they changed the word to COMMUNISM..
Obama is a communist...He has always been around them his whole life...his mentor was a communist...his grandparents were communists..his associations are communists..his work mates were all communists.
In my circle of friends..there are no communists..
You are what you eat...
Guilty by association
Guitly by the bills hes trying to pass and already has passed.
The so called Stimulous bill will stimulate NOTHING...and by the time you realize this..many more will have lost homes and business's...
You know why? Because thats the plan....You think this year is economically bad...high unemployment...wait till next year...and I promise not to say "I told you so"...YOu have been brainwashed and it will take some time to sink into your head whats really going on..
Another fine example of commie ways...pit one group against another..
What the hell did Joe the Plumber ever do to you libs...ggggeessshhhh...you people are infested with hate...
Do you need more? Or are you just plain too stubborn to see the truth..
ummmm, musician... i know what you are saying may make sense in your head. But in the real world, you sound a bit silly. It's not 1958... Joe McCarthy is dead. There is no communist conspiracy to rule to world. And even if there was, Obama... and the other corporate shills who have occupied the white house... aint part of it. They have proved their commitment to corporate america time and time again. So, your accusations of communism on the part of obama are hollow and without merit. I asked for evidence... you told me his grandmother was a communist. Whenever i visit my grandmother, she thinks I'm Uncle Buddy and that we're in the Bronx and its 1947. What does that prove? Nothing. But thanks for your input.
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imlost2
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Jun 30 @ 4:36PM
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Recently the insurance companies started reporting that they may drop their coverages as they cannot compete with Government issued health insurance. So what will that leave you? One insurance that fits all? So the blogger who said Obama doesn't intend to do away with private insurance, think again. That is just what might happen. More banks have just closed this week, how did this happen when Billions of dollars were just given to them. Of course it wasn't any of our business to which banks and to whom. This and recently in this new bill tucked far away people won't be able to sell their homes unless they are "green friendly". That means triple
panes, and many other extras which I haven't quite gone thru yet. Wow, that's a stinker, so it's not that you have to get them up to code, you have to have them up to the Government's code of what they require making them enviormentally friendly, and you are going to pay extra taxes on it to boot. How nice. Lost
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skyscraper948
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Jun 30 @ 4:49PM
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Recently the insurance companies started reporting that they may drop their coverages as they cannot compete with Government issued health insurance. So what will that leave you? One insurance that fits all? So the blogger who said Obama doesn't intend to do away with private insurance, think again.
Of course insurance companies are reporting that... they don't want the government cutting into their profits. LMAO. Come on ppl... It's so transparent.
And I think you misunderstand what i said... Even government run insurance is not "socialism". If the government controlled everything from owning the hospitals to paying doctors salaries... all at no cost to the taxpayer... THAT'S SOCIALISM. Giving people quality healthcare who could not otherwise afford it is not, in any way, socialism. That is my point. People need to stop throwing that word around and sounding stupid. If the insurance companies can't compete and fold... so be it. That's the nature of capitalism.
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ttomtarr
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Jun 30 @ 5:32PM
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We got some slick writers here.
Laid back pics.
Professional quality propaganda style writing.
Wonder if there is an employer, Who?
Does MD rate a part time information specialist?
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ttomtarr
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Jun 30 @ 5:57PM
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The problem is not paying for health care. We are already paying 2.5 times as much as the next highest nation is paying.
The problem is what we get for our money, On the receiving end, we rank about number 12 for getting care The health industry gives us less and less as it charges more and more. Real change is changing what they charge!
Free trade? Free up medical schools from the AMA monopoly. Open lots of med schools to any qualified applicant, paid tuition and years of public service to settle the cost. More doctors can give quicker, cheaper MORE AVAILABLE service.
The bean counters who run for-profit hospitals have run amok. Needless tests are ordered by computers programmed by accountants to maximize profits, and doctors who object are kicked out. Regulate the health care industry the same as any other non-competitive public utility.
Why do we pay 10 or 100 or 1.000 times what other countries pay for the same dose of the same drug? To he_l with fighting al-Quaeda, I am more likely to die of medical help priced way out of my ability to pay. The same quality drug is sold to veterinarians for a small fraction of the cost the same dose is sold to human doctors. Why is it cheaper to get the same health care for a horse than for me? Who has the cojones to take on the AMA?
Insurance companies just handle the money, taking a large percentage of the haul for their services. If a big expense comes, sorry cancelled. Sorry, excluded. They cry out for regulation.
Joe may be making it big on the lecture circuit, but the rest of us plumbers are still needing the government that we elected people to provide us.
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musicianfriend
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Jun 30 @ 5:59PM
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Agenda 21
Dear sir, believing that healthcare for all is a human right is not part of socialist ideology. Now, If you said that Obama wanted to do away with private insurance all together and that he wanted to US government to control all aspects of the healthcare system... that would be socialist. Anything less is simply "liberal". there is a difference. The UN has accepted access to quality and affordable healthcare IS a human right. If you disagree, thats fine, but its not "socialist".
The gov collects enough taxes at this time to pay for social medicine..if they cut back all the wasted spending and cut back of welfare programs that have been handed to the same families generation after generation....
And if they cut back on their Million dollar bonus's such as Franklin Raines - Fannie Mae- gave to himself....aquiring 50 million dollars while working for Fannie Mae only 6 years..
You see..when they ask for more tax money..and I know what I know..I just cant support social med. the way Obama is asking us to..We dont need to pay more taxes..The politicans need to balance the budget by cutting back spending...Like Ive had to do since they screwed up the nation and created this financial crisis and last years $5.00 diesle that totally screwed up my business..
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musicianfriend
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Jun 30 @ 6:16PM
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ummmm, musician... i know what you are saying may make sense in your head.But in the real world, you sound a bit silly
Im not the only person who feels this way..
There is no communist conspiracy to rule to world. And even if there was, Obama... and the other corporate shills who have occupied the white house... aint part of it.
Again...I say...you show how much you DO NOT KNOW when you say such things as this....
They have proved their commitment to corporate america time and time again. So, your accusations of communism on the part of obama are hollow and without merit. I asked for evidence..
Even in Communism...or what ever name you wish to call it...socialism....marxism..slavery...all still a part of communism...to some degree...They all equal a loss of freedom and a Borg like unity...the collective..
Like I said..you are missing a part of the puzzle...The Corporations have become the task masters...They are the ones controlling everything..
Have you ever seen the movie "The Corporation"..By of all people..I cant even believe Im saying this...lol...but it was by Michael Moore and he did have a point..
The corporations of America have turned against us...Using the 14th amendment that gave them 'personhood' they have become a great power ......
The Corporation
Did you know that the United States is still a part of the British Empire and that we pay them huge amounts of money..
I think thats why they keep the IRS and the Federal REserve out of the hands of The People....Private entities...DId you know that? That the Reserve and the IRS are NOT gov. entities...IF they were ..we could use the Freedom of Information act to see what we are paying in taxes and what we are paying in bills..thus seeing what tax money is left after expenditures...But even though its our money..we have no access to any of this information..Even though our constitution says this is a country of the people, for the people and by the people..
There is more going on in life and in this country..than meets the eye... .
Go have a beer and pizza and put on the hypnotic boob tube...lol
Just kidding..but thats exactly what the shadow government wants you to do...They hate it when we actually think for ourselves..
Our children and ourselves have been programmed,brainwashed in our public school systems to be 'servants' of these people..
They also have created divisions .....that way..we are fighting with each other..instead of watching them..
If you notice..everytime something bad happend or the Pres does something wrong...a 'crisis' will come up and take our focus away from that...lol....they think were stupid and dont notice...But they are wrong...some people do notice..
In fact..when I see a diversion..I always look at the politicians and try to see what it is they are covering up...Its just a game they play and always have..and always will.
. you told me his grandmother was a communist. Whenever i visit my grandmother, she thinks I'm Uncle Buddy and that we're in the Bronx and its 1947. What does that prove? Nothing. But thanks for your input.
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Naraku
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Jun 30 @ 11:31PM
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ttomtarr, the problem with that is the sue happy people. If i go in for a cold and have cancer, but they dont check for that, I can sue. It may not be a right thing to do, but I can. Doctors have to check for everything nowadays. If not they make themselves liable for not doing their job. The insurance companies take advantage and exploit that so they can cover their ass's and then find a way to make more and charge more. Medical school loan bills must be outragous. Private practices, Having only one or 2 doctors at one place must drive up the costs. Someone has to pay the help the going rate.
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ttomtarr
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Jul 1 @ 12:32AM
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Of course suits are a problem. But that is due to the Courts. What makes otherwise responsible Judges make screwball decisions with major soocial and economic repercussions?
As an economic determanist I think they have been influenced for economic reasons by parties who stand to gain.
One million dollar settlement for spilled hot coffee forces every coffee vendor in the country to buy insurance that is very high priced, based on that one suit. The million outlay for the coffee spill was high, the income from the threat of additional suits, is much, much higher, year after year. Do you think the insurance companies make a profit or loss on that one? Who benefits by a perverted justice system? They take in money to cover outlays plus a percentage for profit. The higher the gross amount of dollars they churn, the greater their profits.
When something really hurts them, like recent Florida hurricane claims, the insurance companies bail out, taking the premiums from the high profit years with them, leaving their ex-customers with no coverage, and no pool of paid in money to cover future risks.
Some third world countries have free University, and free medical school for qualified students. The new doctor owes several years to the government for his education, and works his "ruralia" or rural service, serving areas too poor to attract the older doctors who gravitate toward more lucrative urban practices. He does so at a low state salary, and gets his education debt written off for doing so. Net result, reasonable medical service for poor areas, and doctors who are debt free in a few years time. Win / Win.
Family practice, eg puking kids, is not brain surgury, Routine medical services can be performed by a trained medic, not a doctor. For example, an optical examination for eyeglasses. Cheapo exam at a US Walmart optical franchise - $50 to $75. The same exam with the same machinery in dominican Republic - $1. 75.
Photogrey glass lenses for my eyeglass frames - San Diego $173, Tiajuana, $35, Mombassa, Kenya $12, all of equal quality. When I asked the Mexican Optometrist how he did it so cheaply, he pulled the envelope from the lenses from the trash can and handed them to me. American Optical Company, same as in the US. He said he made enough profit to live well.
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skyscraper948
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Jul 1 @ 8:54AM
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The corporations of America have turned against us...Using the 14th amendment that gave them 'personhood' they have become a great power ......
I agree. But this is not COMMUNISM. AND my point with this blog was that I wish people would stop using that word because it is not helpful. It only confuses the issue. Under communism... there are NO PRIVATE CORPORATIONS. None. They don't exist. The government owns and operates the means of production. Communism and slavery ARE NOT THE SAME THING. That is ridiculous and no one will listen to you if you keep saying things like that, even if you have valid points... which, at times, you do.
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HopelesslyHopeful
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Jul 2 @ 12:58AM
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Uhm, I hate to break it to you, but, the Founding Fathers did understand socialism, and communism.
John Adams:
Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.
Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people.
Be not intimidated... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your liberties by any pretense of politeness, delicacy, or decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for hypocrisy, chicanery and cowardice.
Banks have done more injury to the religion, morality, tranquility, prosperity, and even wealth of the nation than they can have done or ever will do good.
All good government is and must be republican. But at the same time, you can or will agree with me, that there is not in lexicography a more fraudulent word... Are we not, my friend, in danger of rendering the word republican unpopular in this country by an indiscreet, indeterminate, and equivocal use of it? [...] Whenever I use the word republic with approbation, I mean a government in which the people have collectively, or by representation, an essential share in the sovereignty... the republican forms in Poland and Venice are much worse, and those of Holland and Bern very little better, than the monarchical form in France before the late revolution.
The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.
If a majority are capable of preferring their own private interest, or that of their families, counties, and party, to that of the nation collectively, some provision must be made in the constitution, in favor of justice, to compel all to respect the common right, the public good, the universal law, in preference to all private and partial considerations... And that the desires of the majority of the people are often for injustice and inhumanity against the minority, is demonstrated by every page of history... To remedy the dangers attendant upon the arbitrary use of power, checks, however multiplied, will scarcely avail without an explicit admission some limitation of the right of the majority to excercise sovereign authority over the individual citizen... In popular governments [democracies], minorities [individuals] constantly run much greater risk of suffering from arbitrary power than in absolute monarchies...
A democracy, which is what the Founding Fathers founded, is a socialist government. Of the people, for the people, by the people.
That America is both a democracy and a republic is no accident. It encompasses the best of monarchists idealims and socialism standards. Unfortunately, it still relies on people being honest, hard working, and caring for their neighbors.
And, before you argue, read this:
Socialism refers to any one of various theories of economic organization advocating state or cooperative ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and a society characterized by equal opportunities/means for all individuals with a more egalitarian method of compensation based on the full product of the laborer.
What is called Modern Socialism started in the 18th century, sometime; but, Modern Socialism is not the same thing as other, older forms of socialism. The way the Israelites lived, ala the Holy Scriptures, is classified as socialism. And,so is democracy.
So, Joe the Plumber, who ever he is, is partially correct. The Founding Fathers knew what socialism was, and, yes, they even knew that it would not totally work, due to the greed, apathy, craziness, depression, or what have you of individuals at different times. Yet, they still went right ahead and made the Republic a socialist government anyway, blending the two concepts together to make something that was rather unique .. for white men.
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skyscraper948
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Jul 2 @ 9:08AM
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Uhm, I hate to break it to you, but, the Founding Fathers did understand socialism, and communism.
John Adams:
Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.
Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people.
Be not intimidated... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your liberties by any pretense of politeness, delicacy, or decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for hypocrisy, chicanery and cowardice.
Banks have done more injury to the religion, morality, tranquility, prosperity, and even wealth of the nation than they can have done or ever will do good.
All good government is and must be republican. But at the same time, you can or will agree with me, that there is not in lexicography a more fraudulent word... Are we not, my friend, in danger of rendering the word republican unpopular in this country by an indiscreet, indeterminate, and equivocal use of it? [...] Whenever I use the word republic with approbation, I mean a government in which the people have collectively, or by representation, an essential share in the sovereignty... the republican forms in Poland and Venice are much worse, and those of Holland and Bern very little better, than the monarchical form in France before the late revolution.
The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.
If a majority are capable of preferring their own private interest, or that of their families, counties, and party, to that of the nation collectively, some provision must be made in the constitution, in favor of justice, to compel all to respect the common right, the public good, the universal law, in preference to all private and partial considerations... And that the desires of the majority of the people are often for injustice and inhumanity against the minority, is demonstrated by every page of history... To remedy the dangers attendant upon the arbitrary use of power, checks, however multiplied, will scarcely avail without an explicit admission some limitation of the right of the majority to excercise sovereign authority over the individual citizen... In popular governments [democracies], minorities [individuals] constantly run much greater risk of suffering from arbitrary power than in absolute monarchies...
A democracy, which is what the Founding Fathers founded, is a socialist government. Of the people, for the people, by the people.
That America is both a democracy and a republic is no accident. It encompasses the best of monarchists idealims and socialism standards. Unfortunately, it still relies on people being honest, hard working, and caring for their neighbors.
And, before you argue, read this:
Socialism refers to any one of various theories of economic organization advocating state or cooperative ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and a society characterized by equal opportunities/means for all individuals with a more egalitarian method of compensation based on the full product of the laborer.
What is called Modern Socialism started in the 18th century, sometime; but, Modern Socialism is not the same thing as other, older forms of socialism. The way the Israelites lived, ala the Holy Scriptures, is classified as socialism. And,so is democracy.
So, Joe the Plumber, who ever he is, is partially correct. The Founding Fathers knew what socialism was, and, yes, they even knew that it would not totally work, due to the greed, apathy, craziness, depression, or what have you of individuals at different times. Yet, they still went right ahead and made the Republic a socialist government anyway, blending the two concepts together to make something that was rather unique .. for white men.
I am referring to socialism and communism as an organized movement and political ideology... and so was Joe the Douche Bag. lol. I'm not saying aspects and/or ideas that are now part of socialist philosophy were not thought of until Karl Marx. Thats not what i'm saying at all. But when you use the terms "communism" and "socialism" you are referring to specific political ideologies that did not exist at the time of the founding fathers. As for your quotes from the founding fathers i am sort of struggling to see the connection to socialism.  They never spoke of a government that own the means of production and distributes wealth equally among the workers... never. So, sorry. I don't get what your saying.
I think alot of these accusations about socialism/communism boil down to misunderstandings about what exactly socialism is. Having a universal healthcare program for example doesn't mean the government is necessarily socialist, even though such a program would exist under socialism in a different form. It's like saying that the U.S. and Saudi Arabia have the same form of government because both nations use capital punishment... thats quite a leap, don't you think?
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