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Natural capitalism vs unnatural socialism

posted 10/7/2009 9:49:48 AM |
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  thenewguy295

Just some thoughts here.

Capitalism has been with us a long, long time. Thousands of years before the Roman stock market there was capitalism which has evolved naturally along with human society.
Socialism in a form has been around too, usually within a family but in their most primitive forms both capitalism and socialism can be mistaken for each other.

Capitalism is people exchanging goods, services or labor with each other for mutual benefit.

Socialism is one person receiving the benefit of the labor of another person without reciprocation. In it's basic form a mother or father caring for their family members could be seen as a form of socialism.

Once we get to the village level though things get harder to define. Is the mother watching the village children or the wet nurse suckling the babies of other's performing a capitalist or socialist act?
Some would say socialist, I say it's capitalist since these women most likely would receive some form of benefit from other members of the village for the services they performed. Of course they wouldn't have bothered to define it at all. It was just what they did to help each other to survive.

Today though we do define these things. It is important for us to do so and to understand the differences as we appear to move towards a socialist society ourselves. We need to remember that outside of the family or small clusters of people, that human societies have evolved naturally as capitalists. Modern socialism is an artificial construction often usually imposed on half it's participants, the ones that do all the work. It is relatively recent, only a century or two old and not proven to work.

Socialism usually fails because those that do the most work receive the least benefit. Capitalism usually works because those that do the most work benefit from it the most. Those that benefit less often only need to work more.

Now at this point someone will pipe up about 'robber barons' and corporate greed but that's not the type of capitalism I am talking about. Those are a type of 'capitalist cancer' an unsustainable variance from healthy capitalism and to an extent they have tended to be self correcting. Unions and labor laws are the result. I could just as easily point out gulags and concentration camps as examples of bad socialism. There, we're even. In their most extreme forms they are hard to tell apart.

But what about those that can't work due to age, injury or mental disability? Well taking care of them is socialist and there is nothing wrong with the system doing it as long as the programs don't encourage those that can work to stop working in order to get benefits. Once that happens we get onto a huge cycle of more and more people receiving benefits and fewer and fewer people working to pay for them. The whole thing will collapse eventually as it must. It is the nature of humans to take advantage of a 'free lunch'. As time goes on it takes more and more intervention to keep the thing going, more and more government oversight to stop the cheating and abuse, more and more tax dollars, more and more....Socialism requires the intervention of government, an outside influence to impose itself on the common person. It's foundation is not sound, it therefore is unnatural and unsustainable as a basis for an economy. It is a defective system, an abusive system that goes against human nature and cannot work.

Capitalism on the other hand, flawed as it is, works because it harnesses the individual human desire to better one's situation and requires no outside help. True it is often inconsistent and subject to abuse (I could argue that those abuses are in fact socialist) but as a system it is sound, it is capable of evolving, it can be repaired or 're-purposed' to meet new requirements, usually by it's participants. If it grows unnaturally it will collapse and reset itself for a fresh start. I don't say it is easy or painless as life is not easy or painless either. It is the natural way for humans to interact with one another on a large scale basis.

We shouldn't be so willing to discard it in favor of a relative newbie of a system, one that has never succeeded.

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Comments:
Jacksonboy

Oct 7 @ 10:07AM  
I would say you pretty much covered it all. Capitalism gotta love and hate it but is there a better system? I do not think so.
CHARLIgurl1

Oct 7 @ 10:11AM  
That Moore guy made a film about being against capitalism.. the funny thing is tho, he would have had to have used capitalism to market the movie!

duh!
thenewguy295

Oct 7 @ 10:14AM  
That Moore guy made a film about being against capitalism.. the funny thing is tho, he would have had to have used capitalism to market the movie!

duh!

Michael Moore is a millionaire, I wonder how much he really believes in the views that he pushes or does he just pander to the unenfranchised make a buck?

Glad you liked the blog, just trying to provoke some thought.
Sternfan69

Oct 7 @ 10:25AM  
socialism,,a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.


Capitalism is a social system based on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which all property is privately owned


hate to be a nitpicker but i think you have them reversed
lovestobake

Oct 7 @ 10:39AM  
Have a feeling we aint seen nothing yet, great blog.
thenewguy295

Oct 7 @ 11:08AM  
hate to be a nitpicker but i think you have them reversed

How so?

Even using your definitions my examples pretty much conform to them. Maybe if I said profit instead of benefit but that's just a difference in terminology.
Sternfan69

Oct 7 @ 11:14AM  
you said,,,
Capitalism is people exchanging goods, services or labor with each other for mutual benefit.

mutual benefit being the key,,the accepted definition states
property is privately owned

no mutual benefit,just private benefit


then you state
Socialism is one person receiving the benefit of the labor of another person without reciprocation
the accepted definition states
distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

the benefits are distributed to the community as a whole and evenly distributed....

unless you are looking at a different dictionary ,,

you got them backwards no biggie
thenewguy295

Oct 7 @ 11:21AM  
I think you misunderstood how I meant that.
A person owns their own labor, the services or goods they produce. If they trade that for the goods, services or labor of another they both benefit (profit) from it. That is capitalism.

If a person gives their goods, services or labor to another without receiving any benefit (compensation or profit) in return, whether voluntarily of not that is a form of socialism.

We can't get so hung up on dictionary definitions, in the real world things tend to be more broadly defined.
Sternfan69

Oct 7 @ 11:23AM  
fair enough,,but myself i tend to rely on dictionary definitions,,,if not ,then one could claim something they said means anything they want it to mean,,there has to be some measure of a definite answer ,,or we would have no ability to comprehend each other,,,don't you agree?
thenewguy295

Oct 7 @ 11:32AM  
The definitions you proffered would seem to apply mainly to modern societies whereas what I offered was intended to apply at a basic human level which could then be expanded upon as societies get/got more complex.

Marx and Engels talked about ancient man living in a state of primitive communism or socialism because they shared everything. I would assert that outside of small groups they traded with each other and therefore lived in a state of primitive capitalism. Trade implying the people on both sides of the deal profitted from the exchange.

Put it this way, maybe what I said wasn't a definition but more of way of including certain behaviors into the catagory of capitalism or socialism.
observed50

Oct 7 @ 12:04PM  
Consider the following...

Capitalism - social system in which the means of production - capital, such as assets like factories, land, machines - are owned/controlled privately - i.e., by people and institutions apart from the common, the commune, the tribe, or state.

Socialism - a social system in which the means of production are owned/controlled by the people who work those means of production.

As with all social systems, the variants of the systems have been immense in number of theories and forms described and tried. In modern democracies, people have tended to think of 'socialism' as pointing to statism...where the 'state' owns and controls the means of production, thus people's discomfort with government control/ownership of GM or financial institutions in the US.

This gap between 'workers own' and 'state owns' is a natural confusion that results from a democracy supposedly being a collection of those who work the means and the previous owners of the means of production. It serves a political agenda to assert it's socialism. Many socialists would deny the US government's ownership of GM is anything other than statism, which they would assert is not in any way shape or form....socialism.

Capitalism too has immense variation. Many people in the US tend to think of capitalism in the US as being about 'free' enterprise, competition, free markets and similar terms. The reality of oligopolies, where a few control the markets, competition is limited, markets are highly regulated and controlled, and market inputs are assured by the global reach of military dominance obtain better market terms (not 'free' market terms) on critical resources...all of that is lost on a nation that wants to believe...capitalism works.

Law is a shaping tool in any society that helps determine how 'free' or fair, any competition will be. That I get to own a factory and have police keep unions from shutting it down during negotiations while I replace them with 'scab' labor, that legal 'right' is not matched by law in which unions, owning their 'labor' get to use police to keep me from shutting down the factory during negotiations, or replacing them with scabs, to protect their labor output. Law reflects most the interests of those who control society's resources. Would any working person want to not protect their owned labor in any way less than the owner of capital? Doesn't make sense that they would.

My owning my labor and a few tools is not the same as me owning a factory, the factory worker housing, the factory stores, or similar social structure that impacts all our lives. We love to provide an equality to those different ownerships being similar, but only in the most simple theoretic treatment can they be seen as similar...and then one needs to ask...who benefits by thinking owning a factory, or large job site, is in any way, similar to owning my labor? Certainly, the vast majority of humanity who only own their labor and a few tools, cannot benefit equally by the sense that somehow both of those represent 'free' anything...except maybe...free reign?

I think it might be comforting for people to think their is some 'natural' tendency for any social system to be what it is. I would suggest that is simply romantic thinking to try and explain away the obvious issues with anything humans do that treat each other differentially. 'Socialism' has always been seen in the social sciences as the form of social organization that occurred for most of human history. It is the only social form that offered stability and security to small tribes and villages - if things weren't approached in common, people would die or starve, and that loss threatened the survivability of the group.

Capitalism where we own land, factories and machinery, only makes sense in a society where I don't have to live face-to-face with the people I will replace with scabs, only makes sense where I have the control of guns and muscle to ensure the scabs can cross lines, and only makes sense in a society where there is surplus labor. Where there is surplus labor, I don't have to care about how cheap I force the price of your labor, because I can ask another for their labor, and let you starve, and it's easier to let you starve if the guns and muscle protect me, not you, and I don't have to look into your eyes and deal with the social debris of my being self-focused.

Capitalism is imposed as much as any other system has been imposed on people. The laws, despite banks making bad loans, protect the bank, more than they protect the homeowners to whom bad loans were made. The banks get the house back for making a bad loans...not the borrowers. US history is stuffed with the conflict of capital and community, labor and environment. Our role in the world is stuffed with such conflict. Conflict is endemic to the nature of capitalism because it is the ultimate form of competition those with the biggest guns and biggest armies get to impose their laws, their terms of trade, their market rules, on those with smaller guns, smaller armies.

The biblical admonition of 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you' is antithetical the capitalism as we know it. The admonition flies in the face of our false idols of competition, and blaming people's making minimal wages as a result of their being of less value than CEOs or rock stars. Somehow, we've turned a faith that valued "the first shall be last and the last shall be first", as well as '"If anyone wants to be first, he must be the very last, and the servant of all."... we've taken this faith of humble service, and changed ourselves into a nation worshiping the gospel of wealth.

Push back against anything that finds you trying to justify a social system with inherent and profound inequality, to ask not why is it somehow good, but rather, what makes it so unequal? Benefits will accrue to some group in any society.

If you find yourself coming forth with social judgment answers...'people are lazy, stupid, free-loaders, etc'...just know you entered ideology and left the road of inquiry...left the road of comprehension, to journey the road of self-justification.
cbond35

Oct 7 @ 1:33PM  
<----------Commucapisocialmarxist


bardnsage

Oct 7 @ 4:29PM  
Michael Moore is a millionaire, I wonder how much he really believes in the views that he pushes or does he just pander to the unenfranchised make a buck?

Now,, that provokes some thought.
Blaiserboy

Oct 15 @ 5:45PM  
Definitely it was an act of sharing when the government bailed out the US banking system..... and luckily enough for the taxpayers. they will pay the bill, similarly with the automotive manufacturers, and all of the stimulus monies..... and the mortgage help funds...

Seems we want to recognize only some kinds of sharing as socialistic and quietly forget other kinds.

It is interesting that the safety net has been applied liberally to corporations, capitalist corporations at that.....


Sometimes we have to look at the complete picture before judging what may or may not be valid....

Seems to me that a lot of roads that we use and schools that we attend are funded by taxes........ I am not too sure how we could call that capitalistic....

In other words a narrow view is not going to cut it regarding capitalistic or socialistic systems.
Roverboy

Oct 16 @ 10:01AM  
Moore was great when he was doing "TV Nation", but he's sucked ass ever since he started doing movies.

The problem with socialism (and communism), is that the robber barons exist there as well - and "you" are kept at a certain level, never to go beyond that level, while they remain where they are, above you.

At least with capitalism everybody has a fair chance - their own actions determine how well they will do.

Hippies proved that socialism (communism) wouldn't work back in the '60's: eventually - according to many interviews - the communes failed because people began to want things for themselves, and not to share amongst the rest of the group. Individuality won out. Even the Soviet Union failed because the people wanted for themselves, and the government could no longer afford to be removed from the rest of the world. China still exists only because it learned how to survive in a capitalist world - by practicing the same capitalism on the market level. Makes you wonder just how much they believe in communism, doesn't it?

I often thought it would be kinda neat to try living like that, but in the end it wouldn't last - again, it's already been proven.
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Natural capitalism vs unnatural socialism