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Testing the Waters on Illegal Immigration

posted 5/1/2010 7:57:18 PM |
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  CrocDayv

Ok, tell me I'm uninformed, that I don't know the issues, or that it doesn't pertain to me, but I think Arizona is in the right for their illegal immigrant legislation. I'm seeing protesters carrying signs "We Are Human" and "We Work for America". Now, let's have a show of hands, how many are paying taxes? How many are law-abiding citizens or residents? How many came over to this country and went through the legal process of gaining the privilege to stay in this country? I have nothing against ANYBODY, except where they are trying to usurp the rights and privileges of those rightfully and legally in this country. How can they claim not to be criminals when their very status IS what makes them so? Another part of my ignorance comes from the idea that states have the right to pass laws that surpass Federal requirements, that they can choose tougher stances, and that's what Arizona has done. The enforcement may be of question, but isn't that another matter for the STATE to decide? My geography must be awry, too, because I used to think that Texas, New Mexico and California ALSO bordered Mexico, so if people want to cross over, skirting the little annoyance of doing it properly, why not just do it in those states?
Racial profiling has been a fact of life - a distasteful and regretable one, to be sure - for years. Ask German Americans about that through two World Wars, the Italian and Japanese Americans from World War II, ask the Muslims after 11 Sep as well as any who happen to be from the Middle East. There are many more examples throughout history. Is there no longer a sense of pride that goes along with citizenship? Do we not thave the right to insure those who want to come to this country do so on our terms, respecting our laws. What would happen if we went the other way and crossed over into THEIR COUNTRY, intent on assuming the benefits of citizenship? Would we find support from the general populace? Would thousands of protesters stand up for our privilege to be there? I have to maintain my stance, that, if there wasn't a problem, there wouldn't be a law. It doesn't matter if it's a Federal law or one passed by officials in one's local community; it identifies a need that requires action. I don't look Hispanic, nor do I know more than a couple of words of Spanish, but if the State of Arizona wants to question me about my right to enter their state, then I have no choice but to comply. If our immigration laws need to be reformed, so be it. Times and circumstances do change, and we need our legislation to keep pace so it remains effective. In the meantime, we can't toss it all out just because a part might not be up to date. That leads to anarchy. I also think the Governor of Arizona hasn't acted alone, that the process of law was followed to create this legislation, so the Governor should bear the brunt for the entire governing body? Maybe, that's his job. Perhaps, we are amiss in labelling these people as illegal; maybe, they are merely outlaws. Would that help the situation?

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Testing the Waters on Illegal Immigration
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Comments:
Mission_Impossible139

May 1 @ 8:13PM  
skirting the little annoyance of doing it properly,

You obviously no nothing about what it takes to get a legal visa, for a Mexican, to enter the US from Mexico. You need to do some homework. If it weren't for the impossible regulations, there would be thousands of legal people crossing the border.
RANDY72

May 1 @ 10:46PM  
I would like to clear one thing up.........................


the new Arizona law only mirrors the federal law it is not any more or less restrictive. the matter here is the fact that there has been virtually no enforcement of federal law so it would seem impotent.



Yes, we should enforce all the laws and things will be better.
moon_watcher53

May 1 @ 11:14PM  
If our immigration laws need to be reformed, so be it
I don't see anything wrong with the laws that are on the books, they are simply not being
enforced ! What would be accomplished by reforming or changing them if still again
they would not be enforced !! If reformation of the existing laws were to happen, we'd
be paying for a fleet of all new luxury buses to pick up those illegals at the proper points
of entry so as to save them having to swim the river and walking mile after mile thru the
desert as they are doing now sneaking into the states !!

Of course after their long treak to the border they'll need some R&R, so lets put then up
in a Hilton Hotel for a few days while we make out the proper paperwork so they can
immediately acquire driver's licence, SS # and a CC card to get groceries. But, lets
make darn sure each of those Hilton units have a Gideon Bible in each room !!
(Written in Spanish of course even tho they can't read nor write !!)
texasgirl8585

May 1 @ 11:52PM  
I totally agree.
musicianfriend

May 2 @ 3:57AM  
Hey sweetie..howdy....psst..make a few paragraphs..i got dizzy and almost fell off my chair reading...but i did it..i read every word! and it was all good!

How can they claim not to be criminals when their very status IS what makes them so?

The corrupt people in gov. have told them that they have alien rights..instead of inalienable rights....wierd huh..to invade a country..then demand money and rights...

Racial profiling has been a fact of life

if the shoe fits..wear it..its just a reality of life..
If were looking for Mexican illegals..should we look at the Arabs instead...lmao..how stupid some peoples logic is..

what about the friggen rights of the people of Arizona to be safe..all of them..of all races..they deserve to have their rights as well...Its as if the Mexicans are the Gods to the gov. anymore..they almost give them a foot bath with their tongues.. Its actually nauseating..to see them get more rights than we have..a cop cant stop them..and if they do because of someting they did..they have to let them go...hell...no wonder the whole friggen country wants to come here..they get free money..and no police harassment...

even though they are more than a third of our jail population...and there are many murders committed by them..every day..its ridiculous...

I FEEL LIKE IM LIVING IN BACKWARDS LAND..WHERE RIGHT IS WRONG AND WRONG IS RIGHT..

THERE ARE THOSE IS GOV..THAT KEEP THE RACIAL POT STIRRING FOR POLITICAL PURPOSES..I THINK THEY SHOULD BE JAILED..FOR INCITING A RIOT..

Dont try to go to mexico as an illegal..its against the law there AND THEY DO ENFORCE THE LAWS..there..

i
f the State of Arizona wants to question me about my right to enter their state, then I have no choice but to comply.

Its the civilized thing to do..if your doing nothing wrong..then whats the worry?

By breaking the law..they made themselves a second class citizen...



starzatnight

May 2 @ 10:08AM  



rowrus

May 2 @ 10:17AM  
My sentiments exactly CD.... And to compound or amplify the situation, IF we visit Mexico, we better have our papers in order. Often They hold my passport at the front desk for some kind of payment collateral. No passport or ID , you don't check in.

Some foreign countries require that you have a round trip ticket before starting your trip.

Don't worry let 'em rally, the cameras are rolling, now we have good pictures of the individuals and trouble makers. Racial pro-filing now becomes probable cause.

It's so sad, all they have to do is fill out an application and they get a 3 month free pass.

mik48

May 2 @ 11:50AM  
The law that the state of Arizona is proposing is nothing more than racial profiling and is not all that dissimilar to what Nazi Germany did to the jewish people. They could stop the jewish people at any time and ask for identification and proof of citizenship. This is what has got so many people up in arms. It's not that there doesn't need to be work done on illegal immigration. Most people would agree that there must be reform in this area, but racial profiling isn't the answer. Police are not going to stop caucasians to ask them if they have proof of citizenship. What they will end up doing is stopping hispanics, african americans, etc.

How would you feel if every time you left the house, a police officer pulled over your car or asked you to stop on the street and show proof of citizenship? You'd be angry no doubt, and you know what, you'd be right to be angry. Please extend this courtesy to everybody. No matter what their race is.
musicianfriend

May 2 @ 6:56PM  
They could stop the jewish people at any time and ask for identification and proof of citizenship.

this is the perfect example of where media hyped this all up..for political agendas..

Thats NOT what the law says..in fact..the Arizona law and the Federal law..are the same..

You have to had done something FIRST in order to be stopped...THEN ..you can be asked for citizenship proof.

Its about time we took our country back...

We have millions of unemployed people here needing jobs..and that OTHER MEDIA SCAM;...for POLITICAL PURPOSES...that they do jobs we wouldnt do..

So then...Did America do its first farming when the illegals came? Who was doing it before them???

I just hate how the media always spins things today for political agendas....
CrocDayv

May 2 @ 6:59PM  
First, I wish to thank all of you who commented on this. It was my intent to hear both sides of the argument, and I have. We enjoy the right, the freedom of speech, and it's gratifying to see that in action.
southernlass

May 2 @ 8:49PM  
I'm with you on your take on this so-called "racial profiling."

I think that if someone has their papers in order, they don't need to worry about being harassed.
Mission_Impossible139

May 3 @ 8:08AM  
I think that if someone has their papers in order, they don't need to worry about being harassed.

So do YOU carry your passport around everywhere you go? How would you like it if a Mexican/American cop pulled you over, made you show your passport, detained you, took you to the station to make sure your passport was for real and let you go say two hours later?
ttomtarr

May 3 @ 8:29AM  
You can cross the border into Mexico freely. It is set up that way to facilitate tourism, something they had before the drug gangs made the border too dangerous to visit.

But about 50 miles into Mexico, are the Immigration road blocks. "Gringos" are directed to one line where their papers are checked, and travel documents are issued for being in Mexico. It is done politely, but all "American" looking people are stopped and their papers checked.. People who appear to be Mexican citizens are waived through the road block.

This is obviously profiling, and it is done at almost all international borders, with locals waved through and visitors' documents checked.

Is not reciprocal treatment fair and just, with Mexicans and Americans being treated the same in respective host countries ?

Ir is a sad commentary on what America has become, when the tens of thousands of admitted illegal aliens are allowed to walk away free, and Americans requesting enforcement of existing federal laws are arrested.
southernlass

May 3 @ 8:47AM  
So do YOU carry your passport around everywhere you go? How would you like it if a Mexican/American cop pulled you over, made you show your passport, detained you, took you to the station to make sure your passport was for real and let you go say two hours later?

If I thought it could be an issue I certainly would make them available and ready to be shown at all times, kind of like a student bus pass, ya know? Why not?

We really can't afford to feed, clothe, and care for these illegals, you know? We're overwhelmed with our own legitimate citizens sleeping in tent cities. You must think this country's tax payers are a bottomless pit.
CrocDayv

May 3 @ 9:02AM  
I've been an outlaw in this country. For a time, I drove a vehicle without proper registration and expired plates. Each time I took it out on the road, I was subject to being pulled over, detained and fined. I paid the fines gladly, because I knew I was in the wrong. After I was able to become legal, the aforementioned treatment stopped. I didn't claim dispensation because I was a veteran or a firefighter or anything else. I took the responsibility and accepted the consequences. It was the right thing to do. Perhaps, owning up to the consequences of our actions has become a lost art. That's the mirror side of enjoying the rights and privileges and freedoms accorded to us as individuals in this country.

We do not want to close our doors to those who dream of coming here for a better life and fortune. We merely ask that they do so through due process, thus earn the rights we gained by being born here. We invite guests to our homes, but don't we wish they abide by our terms? Isn't that more the case, should we invite them to come live with us? What actions do we take with uninvited visitors, or if someone just decided they were going to move in?
Mission_Impossible139

May 3 @ 9:15AM  
This is obviously profiling, and it is done at almost all international borders, with locals waved through and visitors' documents checked.


That's not how it works in reality. After having lived for over 6 years in Mexico and having driven into and out of Mexico SEVERAL times, I know what goes on. There is no profiling. You are waved through because of your license plate and nothing else. On occasion, Mexicans are even pulled over if it looks like they have a bunch of stuff that could be taxable like stuff that was brought from the US.

If you have a US license plate, no matter what your delineation, you are supposed to get a temp. importation sticker. You don't need the sticker if you stay within the border area but once you pass that line, it's the law that you have one. Your car can be impounded and you'll play hell getting it back if you don't have the sticker.

cbond35

May 3 @ 9:48AM  
We really can't afford to feed, clothe, and care for these illegals, you know? We're overwhelmed with our own legitimate citizens sleeping in tent cities. You must think this country's tax payers are a bottomless pit.

Not to mention the fact that they aren't spending the money they make, here in the U.S.......They are sending most of it back to Mexico, thus dragging our economy down even further.
Mission_Impossible139

May 3 @ 10:03AM  
We really can't afford to feed, clothe, and care for these illegals, you know? We're overwhelmed with our own legitimate citizens sleeping in tent cities. You must think this country's tax payers are a bottomless pit.

The cost of which you speak has no basis in fact. You need to look again at the truth.

Here is a link for you that debunks the theory that illegals cost us soooooo much money and that soooo many crimes are committed by them.
Click here for the facts
SweetNapaGuy

May 3 @ 11:22AM  
If I thought it could be an issue I certainly would make them available and ready to be shown at all times, kind of like a student bus pass, ya know? Why not?

We could make it easy for all citizens. Just have an RFID chip implanted in everyone. The chip would link up to various databases, which would contain all pertinent information. So no need to carry identification papers.

Anyone not having such a chip implant would automatically be suspect, and would be detained by the police. Such individuals would obviously have something to hide, and it would be up to the Federal government to determine who they are, what they want, and whether they are a threat to the nation.
john49887

May 3 @ 4:09PM  
8 U.S.C. 1304(e). Every alien, eighteen years of age and over, shall at all times carry with him and have in his personal possession any certificate of alien registration or alien registration receipt card issued to him pursuant to subsection (d) of this section. Any alien who fails to comply with the provisions of this subsection shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and shall upon conviction for each offense be fined not to exceed $100 or be imprisoned not more than thirty days, or both.

The above provision of the immigration law has been in effect since 1940.
Note the very first word "Every". The law does not exempt Mexicans OR any other LEGAL resident from the requirement of carrying this card.


It is a legal requirement for Permanent Residents to carry their Permanent Resident Card with them at all times. If and only when a Permanent Resident chooses to become a naturalized citizen of America will they relinquish their Permanent Resident Card and no longer have to carry it with them.

The law is clear. A law enforcement officer is NOT violating the rights of anyone when he asks them to produce a Permanent Resident Card.

Under Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code, "Improper Entry by Alien," any citizen of any country other than the United States who:
Enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers; or
Eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers; or
attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact;
has committed a federal crime.

Translation: anyone entering the United States illegally is a criminal.

SweetNapaGuy

May 3 @ 7:05PM  
@ John:

Yes, every alien requires paperwork.

But American citizens are exempt, because they're citizens.

So we have a class of American citizens who are treated as guilty until proven innocent. Even though they're American, they have to prove that they're American, or they'll be held without trial or bail.

All based on the color of their skin.
ttomtarr

May 3 @ 7:26PM  
That's not how it works in reality. After having lived for over 6 years in Mexico

Well whoopie for you !

I began traveling in Mexico in 1962, have crossed the border in over a dozen places, many dozens of times times. I have visited every state, province and major area in Mexico. I have lived in Mexico several times, and spent several years traveling in almost every country in Central and South America, crossing those international borders dozens of times.

Based on 48 years of experience and dozens of Mexican entries/exits/ random stoppings,

That IS the way it works !
RANDY72

May 4 @ 6:13PM  
Yes, every alien requires paperwork.

But American citizens are exempt, because they're citizens.

So we have a class of American citizens who are treated as guilty until proven innocent. Even though they're American, they have to prove that they're American, or they'll be held without trial or bail.

All based on the color of their skin.



Mexicans are not a class of Americans, get this straight. Maexicans are Mexicans , and Americans are Americans, It's simple, No Drama..

We could charge extra money to post on this site for dumb people even if they think they are smart, and all this based on the stupidity of their posts.
CrocDayv

May 4 @ 8:14PM  
[/B]a class of American citizens [B][/B]

We are all Americans, but we also take pride in our heritage, as well as our nationality. I'm American, but I'm also German and Scots-Irish. Even Native Americans identify themselves by tribe or band. We don't carry around passports, because our driver's license is sufficient. I had the misfortune to have been walking through town shortly after a robbery had taken place. The police were looking for a male wearing a green jacket. I was stopped, questioned, searched and released. Was this racial profiling? Was it discrimination? I rather think it was an attempt to locate a suspect through a due process of law enforcement. I don't think my rights were violated by any of this, but then I was doing something completely within the law.
SweetNapaGuy

May 4 @ 9:00PM  
Mexicans are not a class of Americans, get this straight. Maexicans are Mexicans , and Americans are Americans, It's simple, No Drama..

Indeed. Tell me, if I put two Hispanics in a line-up, could you tell me which one is an American citizen and which one is a Mexican citizen?

I'm talking about American citizens here. I distinctly stated AMERICAN CITIZENS. I could not have made it any more clear.

If a Hispanic-American and a German-American are walking down the street, and both are asked for their identification, what will happen? The police will approach the white American assuming they're innocent until proven guilty--and the converse for the Hispanic American.

It doesn't matter if the white American gained naturalized status a week ago, and the Hispanic American's family has lived in the same county for the last 500 years. The Hispanic American will be viewed as "illegal immigrant, unless they can prove otherwise."

We could charge extra money to post on this site for dumb people even if they think they are smart, and all this based on the stupidity of their posts.

That'll be $5, sir. Pay up now, it was your own idea, after all.
Mission_Impossible139

May 4 @ 9:45PM  
I don't think my rights were violated by any of this, but then I was doing something completely within the law.

That's not racial profiling. If you were being stopped every month or so because most of the illegals looked like you, then that would be racial profiling. Americans that look like Mexicans BECAUSE their heritage is MEXICAN, will be racially profiled and harassed. That is not the American way. That should be and will be found unconstitutional. You don't give up rights because someday, YOU may be the victim of continual harassment. If you believe in due process and habeas corpus and the constitution you know that the law in Arizona is a sham.
CrocDayv

May 5 @ 2:48PM  
the law in Arizona is a sham

On the contrary, I can't see the law as being a sham, but as the constitutional rights of the State to reinforce Federal legislation. This law is not the problem, as I see it, as is the enforcement of the law. I'd feel better examing the text of the law in question, but I'm going on gut feelings and what I know of laws in general. As a former police officer, I was familiar with parts of the criminal code that were contradictory. Laws have been passed to allow the officer discretion in performing his duties. It may be better to wait-and-see to determine the effectiveness of Arizona's measures. Were I a more adventurous sort, I'd arrange to have myself made up to look Hispanic, go to Arizona and get a personal take on the situation. Then, I might feel more of an authority on the subject.
CrocDayv

May 6 @ 11:57AM  
I want to introduce the following letter I just received. It highlights some salient points either forgotten or disregarded in the arguments about immigration. The letter was intended for a California newspaper, but was unprinted, and I think it's pertinent to the basic premise that we have specific expectations of the peoples who come to our country to live:

> Dear Editor:
> So many letter writers have based their arguments on how this land is made up of immigrants. Ernie Lujan for one, suggests we should tear down the Statue of Liberty because the people now in question aren't being treated the same as those who passed through Ellis Island and other ports of entry .
>
> Maybe we should turn to our history books and point out to people like Mr. Lujan why today's American is not willing to accept this new kind of immigrant any longer. Back in 1900 when there was a rush from all areas of Europe to come to the United States, people had to get off a ship and stand in a long line in New York and be documented. Some would even get down on their hands and knees and kiss the ground. They made a pledge to uphold the laws and support their new country in good and bad times. They made learning English a primary rule in their new American households and some even changed their names to blend in with their new home.
>
> They had waved good bye to their birth place to give their children a new life and did everything in their power to help their children assimilate into one culture. Nothing was handed to them. No free lunches, no welfare, no labor laws to protect them. All they had were the skills and craftsmanship they had brought with them to trade for a future of prosperity.
>
> Most of their children came of age when World War II broke out. My father fought along side men whose parents had come straight over from Germany , Italy , France and Japan .. None of these 1st generation Americans ever gave any thought about what country their parents had come from. They were Americans fighting Hitler, Mussolini and the Emperor of Japan . They were defending the United States of America as one people.
>
> When we liberated France , no one in those villages were looking for the French-American or the German American or the Irish American . The people of France saw only Americans. And we carried one flag that represented one country. Not one of those immigrant sons would have thought about picking up another country's flag and waving it to represent who they were. It would have been a disgrace to their parents who had sacrificed so much to be here. These immigrants truly knew what it meant to be an American. They stirred the melting pot into one red, white and blue bowl.
>
> And here we are with a new kind of immigrant who wants the same rights and privileges. Only they want to achieve it by playing with a different set of rules, one that includes the entitlement card and a guarantee of being faithful to their mother country . I'm sorry, that's not what being an American is all about. I believe that the immigrants who landed on Ellis Island in the early 1900's deserve better than that for all the toil, hard work and sacrifice in raising future generations to create a land that has become a beacon for those legally searching for a better life. I think they would be appalled that they are being used as an example by those waving foreign country flags .
>
> And for that suggestion about taking down the Statue of Liberty , it happens to mean a lot to the citizens who are voting on the immigration bill. I wouldn't start talking about dismantling the United States just yet.
>
> (signed) Rosemary LaBonte
Soulfrom323

Jul 21 @ 2:50PM  
"The law that the state of Arizona is proposing is nothing more than racial profiling and is not all that dissimilar to what Nazi Germany did to the jewish people. They could stop the jewish people at any time..."
[I]

If they are approaching people who appear to be of a certain ethnicity, typical of what sometimes occurs in L.A. with black and brown people, just on that premise, then yes, it is profiling. But if law enforcement during the course of of a justified stop requests any kind of documentation that they determine to an aid in the enforcement of local traffic and municipal law, (license, registration, insurance, etc.) then that legally cannot be considered profiling of any kind. I doubt that Arizona officials vary in procedure much from here. And having grown up in a city that once seemed to specialize in it, I have been through the profiling sifter enough.
SweetNapaGuy

Jul 21 @ 11:20PM  
Not entirely related to the Arizona bill, but a week prior to its passage, a natural-born American citizen of Hispanic descent was pulled out of his big-rig truck at a weigh station and held in custody for eight hours.

He had his drivers license. He could recite his SSN. The authorities demanded to see his birth certificate. His wife had to leave work, go get the birth certificate out of safe storage at home, and drive to where her husband was being held.

A higher burden of proof now exists for some citizens than others, based on their skin color. The trucker was complaining that he would now have to carry not just his commercial drivers license, but also his birth certificate (and possibly his social security card?). Which means not only does he have to carry more "identity papers" than his white colleagues, but the first time he gets mugged, he is significantly more at risk of identity theft.

****************

I don't care if illegal immigrants get deported. I object to unequal protection under the law, when it comes to American citizens.
CrocDayv

Jul 21 @ 11:43PM  
I object to unequal protection under the law

I certainly agree, Napa! I think this is more of a case of overzealous enforcement, a problem that goes hand-in-hand with any controversial legislation. Laws are the tools of enforcement, and tools can be abused and misused.
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Testing the Waters on Illegal Immigration