Once again, I have ran into a great deal of unwarranted prejudice and "hate comments" in regards to Jehovah's Witnesses, most of which said, once again, that they are a cult.
I don't know what other people's definition of a cult is, but to me a cult is where people go to seek out certain types of people - such as, say, the broken but filthy rich actors and actresses - in order to control them and thereby control their assets. In such cases, the persons are "encouraged" forcibly to donate vast sums of money to their religion without once questioning where it is going or demanding proof of it's having been put to good use.
Though sometimes instead of seeking out just the broken and rich, the cult will seek out the broken but poor to slave for them as well; or the elderly and addled so that they can be easily coerced into sending $500 checks to a man on television.
I would call the PTL Club a cult. It is a proven fact that Jim Baker raised himself up as a false prophet, put himself in the place of Jesus, tricked thousands of people out of huge sums of money by making false promises that he did not deliver on, and that he was not living according to his teachings.
Jehovah's Witnesses do not have a collection plate, even. They have boxes that are off in another room away from where the congregation is assembled. While in an assembly of thousands, as they do get together at times, they have cardboard boxes set up instead, and since those boxes are easily moveable and there is a vast crowd of mixed peoples, etc. those boxes are watched at that time. But in a regular setting, in the Kingdom Hall, the boxes are just there. No one watches them to know how much money each member of the congregation puts in; no one says "You did not put in enough. We know what your earnings are, so you should put in $300.00 more. "
And there is a specific night, which is generally on Tuesdays here but was on Thursdays in Alaska, when anyone who wishes to (and all are encouraged) may come to the Kingdom Hall and receive the news as is related to that religion. Which includes being told where the money that was collected from the congregation has gone to and what it is being used for.
Oh yes, there are three boxes, by the way: one is for the specific congregation, one is for the circuit I think (a general area), and one is for the world wide organization. So, not only are people not watched to see if they gave enough, but they have more specific control over exactly to what they are giving!
And is it easy to become one of Jehovah's Witnesses? Do they tell you "Just show up at the compound, prepared to dress in white and eat the soup!" ? Do they say to you that all you have to do is pretend to read the Bible and send them a really big check?
Far from it.
To be one of Jehovah's Witnesses you must study the Holy Scriptures, you must be able to pass a test to prove that you do know a great deal about the Holy Scriptures and where to find answers to what you are less knowledgeable about. You must show a willingness to dedicate your life to following the teachings of the Christ.
This means that if you are a stripper, a homosexual, an adulterer, a rapist, a gambler, a teacher that maltreats their students, a drunkard, or anyone else who would not be walking around with the Christ (before they changed) then you must change your lifestyle, of your own free will, to be someone who would have been walking around with him.
It means that if you do not like to read, you must sacrifice your own comfort and learn how to read anyway as they are not going to tell you what is needed to be learned from the Bible. If you do not learn it for yourself, you cannot be baptised.
And if you can't do that, as in you will not do it, it doesn't matter how big your wallet is, how much lip service you provide, or who your parents are. You are simply not going to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses unless you are making an active effort to learn and grow spiritually, and to live by the standards set by the Christ.
There are many, many persons who want to be baptised on the spur of the moment and give money and even time immediately. They are not taken in just because of that, though. They are invited to study, to talk with the brothers, etc. to see if this is truly about a change of heart or simply just about being swept up in the moment.
Jehovah's Witnesses are the furthest thing from a cult there is.
Copy & paste to friend: (Click inside box; Ctrl + C to copy; Ctrl + V to paste)
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read more blogs!
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Blogs by HopelesslyHopeful:
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Josuha
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Dec 21 @ 12:01PM
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I read your comments in another blog.
In no way was I saying you are 'wrong'.
You can believe you wish.
However, to be a 'christian' one has to adhere to certain dogma and teaching.
Note 'dogma'..not 'doctrine'..
The JW's deny many fundamental teachings of both scripture, Jesus (Yashua) and the early Church.
I would storngly suggest, if you are truly 'seeking', then do research on the organization and translations from scripture.
If however, you simply wish to 'follow' something, then do as you will.
The 'church' is not a 'man' or a 'building'..the 'church' (means gathering) of 'believers' in Christ as God the Son.
God does'nt care what a man or a self appointed prophet says or what building your in.
You can have ''church' in the bathroom and He does'nt care.
Matt 18:20 20For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."
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mordru
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Dec 21 @ 12:03PM
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If that means you have to give up your children to follow your faith like that guy in the blog did. Then you are a cult. NO TRUE CHRISTIAN WOULD GIVE UP THERE CHILD. 
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HopelesslyHopeful
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Dec 21 @ 12:05PM
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*ahem* For one thing, you are not a person I quoted in regards to insulting Jehovah's Witnesses. So, if you did, I missed it.
In fact, the only comment I read of yours, to my memory, I agreed with and thought was both reasonable and refreshing.
Also, it's particularly funny to me that your comment right here, if it wasn't rather against Jehovah's Witnesses, would sound just like one!
That is entirely the sort of thing they are famous for saying which makes other people call them a cult.
lol
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HopelesslyHopeful
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Dec 21 @ 12:09PM
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oh and by the way, just for the record, no they do not!
The JW's deny many fundamental teachings of both scripture, Jesus (Yashua) and the early Church.
That's what I was replying to, there.
Since you didn't give any facts or "facts" to support your argument, neither will I tell you by what means I make my statement. Sound familiar?
But thank you for your comment, dear.
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carpediem48
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Dec 21 @ 12:09PM
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I studied with the Jehovah's witness's for two years
What you say is true
I loved the people
The majority were good,,, honest,,, sincere,,,, studious,,,
people of integrity 
I wish I could say the same for the Watchtower organization in New York that runs things,
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DeeLaMarie
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Dec 21 @ 12:12PM
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Since I am not a Jehovah Witness, let me ask you something. I realize that the forum is the appropriate place, but since the Mods should be taking care of getting the chat room back up for all the paying members they are probably busy.
Do Jehovah Witnesses believe that our way to salvation is through Jesus Christ the son of God, through the shedding of his blood?
Why are there not any windows on any of the Kingdom Halls I have ever seen? That has always seemed very strange, dark, mysterious to me, even as a child.
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EternalFlame
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Dec 21 @ 12:15PM
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cult Listen to the pronunciation of cult
Pronunciation:
\'k?lt\
Function:
noun
Usage:
often attributive
Etymology:
French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate — more at wheel
Date:
1617
1: formal religious veneration : worship
2: a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3: a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4: a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator
5 a: great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b: the object of such devotion c: a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion
By Webster's definition, all organized religions are cults.
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Josuha
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Dec 21 @ 12:16PM
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Also, it's particularly funny to me that your comment right here, if it wasn't rather against Jehovah's Witnesses, would sound just like one!
That is entirely the sort of thing they are famous for saying which makes other people call them a cult.
In any heresy of teaching and 'cults', there is just enough 'truth' to make it sound good and believeable.
To make one feel 'rightous' or 'doing God's will' according to some 'law'.
The early church was not immune to this.
'Legalism' crept into the church where a confrontation even occurred between Paul and Peter.
You find the same thing happened especially in the 3rd century and into the 19th century with 'prophets' who started churches based on scripture, then writing their own books for their followers.
If you do research on these 'prophets' their prophecies not only did not come to pass, but they changed their own teachings to suit their failures.
Isreal and the church was warned about such people.
A 'halftruth' is still a lie.
Beware of false prophets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la0bQAJTelU
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sloriver
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Dec 21 @ 12:17PM
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I think when a group of people show up on your doorstep, uninvited, at 7 AM, dressed in their best while you stand in your bathrobe with a cup of coffee in your hand and insist on telling you about thier religeon or pressing a tract into your hand they start to appear a cult. It's compounded by the fact that they assume you are going to hell unless they "help" you. There's no consideration that you're a Sunday School teacher down at the Methodist Church. They get the same response as Hari Krishnas. No thanks, I have my faith.
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Josuha
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Dec 21 @ 12:18PM
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I made a comment on the other blog (three pages of JW turning from scriture.)
You can read here if you wish evidence.
http://www.matchdoctor.com/blog_76748/HOW_CAN_A_MAN_DO_THIS_TO_HIS_CHILD.html
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AttractedCentaur
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Dec 21 @ 12:22PM
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I have a fellow co-worker who is a "JW". He and I talk about differences in religions as well as his faith. I do not consider it a cult, any more than I would any other religion or religious following.
I consider myself a "southern baptist" yet I am always interested in other religious faiths because I like to learn how and why other people believe as they do.
The one thing I do agree with is this ... everyone has a right to believe in what they wish. If a person disagrees with another person, that is their right BUT do not argue with them over it. Do not push your faith onto someone else.
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IB4U
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Dec 21 @ 12:25PM
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Cult (religious practice)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Cult (religion))
Jump to: navigation, search
This article discusses cult in the original sense of "religious practice." It does not discuss religious or sociological cultist groups or uses in the sense of "cultural sub-group," as in cult film, etc.
In traditional usage, the cult of a religion, quite apart from its sacred writings ("scriptures"), its theology or myths, or the personal faith of its believers, is the totality of external religious practice and observance, the neglect of which is the definition of impiety. Cult is literally the "care" owed to the god and the shrine. The term "cult" first appeared in English in 1617, derived from the French culte, meaning "worship" or "a particular form of worship" which in turn originated from the Latin word cultus meaning "care, cultivation, worship," originally "tended, cultivated," also the past participle of colere "to till". Thus in French, for example, sections in newspapers giving the schedule of worship at Catholic churches are headed Culte Catholique; the section giving the schedule of protestant churches is headed culte réformé.
By extension, "cult" has come to connote the total cultural aspects of a religion, as they are distinguished from others through change and individualization. Well-known global cults include Islam and Christianity.
The meaning "devotion to a person or thing" is from 1829, and from that connotation comes the modern meaning of "cult" as in a "cultist" or a "cult following". Cult and cultist have recently accrued negative connotations that are separately dealt with at the entry cult.
In Roman Catholicism, cultus or cult is the technical term for the following and devotion or veneration extended to a particular saint.
Some Christians make refined distinctions between worship and veneration, both of which are outwardly expressed in cultus or cult. Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy distinguish between worship (Latin adoratio, Greek latreia [?at?e?a]) which is due to God alone, and veneration (Latin veneratio, Greek doulia [d???e?a]), which may be lawfully offered to the saints. These distinctions between deity and mediators are exhaustively treated at the entries for worship and veneration.
Among the observances in the cult of a deity are rituals and ceremonies, which may involve spoken or sung prayers or hymns, and often sacrifice, or substitutes for sacrifice. Other manifestations of the cult of a deity are the preservation of relics or the creation of images, such as icons (usually connoting a flat painted image) or three-dimensional cultic images, denigrated as "idols", and the specification of sacred places, hilltops and mountains, fissures and caves, springs, pools and groves, or even individual trees or stones, which may be the seat of an oracle or the venerated site of a vision, apparition, miracle or other occurrence commemorated or recreated in cult practices. Sacred places may be identified and elaborated by construction of shrines and temples, on which are centered public attention at religious festivals (called "feasts" in some Christian communities) and which may become the center for pilgrimages.
The comparative study of cult practice is part of the disciplines of the anthropology of religion and the sociology of religion, two aspects of comparative religion. In the context of many religious organisations themselves, the study of cultic or liturgical practises is called liturgiology
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eastham
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Dec 21 @ 12:41PM
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The JW's deny many fundamental teachings of both scripture, Jesus (Yashua) and the early Church.
Regardless of sect (Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox), one of the basic tenets of Christianity is a belief in a triune God. This is one of the core tenets. For most Protestant sects, failure to recognize the Trinity as a core belief means you are not a Christian. Jehovah's Witnesses do not recognize the Trinity and therefore are not considered by some to be Christian.
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joeeeee
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Dec 21 @ 12:41PM
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I love Jehova's Witness' as well as Mormons...
As a group, they seem to behave themselves.
And, I really appreciate good-behavior.
My goodness!
Over the century's there have been so many gods.
I
think it quite absurd to get offended if the God-de-jour: Jesus, is looked and worshiped by different groups in different ways.
Not to mention the fact, (I think) that we, (all of us) will be quite surprised by what we find, (or don't find) when we, finally, drop dead!
Joe
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misschoos
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Dec 21 @ 12:43PM
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A 'cult' to me is a negative term which means a following of
a group of people who are controlled by being brainwashed.
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UnicornLover1962
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Dec 21 @ 12:47PM
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the jehovah witness's are not a cult...they're a religion like any other...with different teachings and all.
i know, i studied with them for a while. we came to a parting of the ways when i questioned one of their beliefs. but i understand their doctrine and still ocassionally enjoy reading some of their materials. i just have a more open mind than i did before.
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Hooks
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Dec 21 @ 12:58PM
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Where your organization got your "CULT" status was back in the late 1800's and early 1900's where Russell, and other followers predicted "Armageddon" to happen on certain dates. They were always quick to give a reason, after the date, why they had misunderstood. But it was this that thrust them into the public eye, bringing great disdain, and negative views from the general public.
The organization has had splits, and conflicts on doctrine since shortly after it began as a bible study group, in response to what they saw as compromise and corruption in mainstream Christianity! They did just like all the other denominations of the Christian Religion did in splitting from the Catholic organization. It's just that they didn't go and predict the end of the world on such and such a day!
I find it very interesting that of all the major religions in the world, Christianity is the only one with so many different factions, or denominations of it. The only thing they all agree on is that there is a God! It seems peculiar in Christianity, meaning Christ like, (you know, the one who said love each other as I have loved you) that they can't get along with each other! 
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jayej
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Dec 21 @ 1:00PM
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A 'cult' to me is a negative term which means a following of
a group of people who are controlled by being brainwashed. Not to bump the topic off JW's but now it is stating to sound like the American Public...........scarey
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jimbo242
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Dec 21 @ 2:04PM
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Then "cult" would apply to any child that is force-feed any religion.
The brain (prefrontal lobe) is still forming until we are around 25 years of age. The military and insurance companies are well aware of that fact. Why do you think it's so easy to turn a normally peaceful individual into a killer? (just use the Marine Corp as an example)
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yashaenka
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Dec 21 @ 2:25PM
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Jehovah's Witnesses originated with the religious movement known as Bible Students, which was founded in the late 1870s by Charles Taze Russell. Various splinter groups arose after Russell's death, particularly with the beginning of the presidency of Russell's successor, Joseph Franklin Rutherford. Those who remained supportive of the Watchtower Society, in 1931 came to adopt the name Jehovah's Witnesses, under Rutherford's leadership; some of the splinter groupssurvive to this day, though few of these have upwards of 1000 adherents (see splinter groups article). Those who did not support Rutherford formed various Bible Studentgroups which have retained Russell's teachings. Jehovah's Witnesses no longer use "Bible Students" as a formal name for their religion.
In the early 1870s, Russell organized a Bible study group composed mostly of Second Adventists (a group that arose after the Millerite Great Disappointment) in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.[10]
Source Wiki
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HopelesslyHopeful
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Dec 21 @ 2:50PM
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Since I am not a Jehovah Witness, let me ask you something. I realize that the forum is the appropriate place, but since the Mods should be taking care of getting the chat room back up for all the paying members they are probably busy.
Do Jehovah Witnesses believe that our way to salvation is through Jesus Christ the son of God, through the shedding of his blood?
Why are there not any windows on any of the Kingdom Halls I have ever seen? That has always seemed very strange, dark, mysterious to me, even as a child.
Let me answer you something:
I replied to you on my other blog. You remember it, I'm sure: it was the one where you falsely accused me of not approving your comment on this blog.
For some reason I got over 20 responses to these blogs, by comments, as well as many pieces of email in response to them and some of them, after I responded to them, I got more replies to!
So before you go and accuse people, please have the courtesy to get your facts straight! If it had been a few days, I could see where you might be justified in making that accusation .. but a few minutes or even a few hours. .. no!
Also, you asked those questions before and I answered them before, more than once, so.. why do you keep re-asking them? The answers won't change.
Sorry to disappoint you but there is nothing weird, dark, sinister, or mysterious going on at a congregation meeting and since the doors are not locked, you could feel free to step inside and find that out for yourself.
Or is it that you want to peep in the windows instead? Because that sounds rather dark and sinister!
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HopelesslyHopeful
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Dec 21 @ 2:57PM
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I made a comment on the other blog (three pages of JW turning from scriture.)
You can read here if you wish evidence.
NO!
Which is to say:
I am done with that other blog . The person who wrote that other blog emailed me and we made our peace with each other and I am not about to go and disturb her again or continue disturbing myself by reading hateful and lying comments.
The woman who wrote that blog, while I did not appreciate some of her comments, has shown a great deal of open-mindedness and willingness to both admit fault and accept apology and I find that very refreshing. I wish her and her family all the best in sorting out their issues and coming to terms with each other, especially for the sake of the children.
If you wish to present your evidence to me in regards to my blog, then you may present it in the comments on my blog, if it is to be a discussion. But I do not want private emails on it and I will not go out of my way to seek out your alleged evidence for you, in any manner.
See, I already have my evidence; so no, I do not wish for yours and it is not worth my time to chase after it. But I am willing to allow you to post yours if it will make you feel better in some manner; but I'll probably respond to it and there's been enough misdirected postings on that other lady's blog
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HopelesslyHopeful
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Dec 21 @ 3:12PM
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Where your organization got your "CULT" status was back in the late 1800's and early 1900's where Russell, and other followers predicted "Armageddon" to happen on certain dates.
And as soon as you can show me, from their teachings and not the teachings of others who are speaking out against Jehovah's Witnesses, where this happened and what those dates were and why they thought they were right, then your comment will start to hold some merit.
I met some of Jehovah's Witnesses who freely admit to having decided that a certain date was when the end of the world would finally happen. But it wasn't a teaching from the Bible, it wasn't based on any date they were given in a congregational meeting, or etc. It was individual persons who were misled by other individual persons. Some of them realized they were wrong and sucked it up and came back to where they belong. Others couldn't admit their mistake and went off and lied about it having been a false teaching of a "cult" .
They did just like all the other denominations of the Christian Religion did in splitting from the Catholic organization. It's just that they didn't go and predict the end of the world on such and such a day!
And did you get that from Jehovah's Witnesses or the Catholics? Because neither has ever told me that Jehovah's Witnesses used to be Catholic and both have told me that they never were. But far be it from us to take the word of the people involved in those religions when we could, instead, just believe people who make up shite as they go along. Right?
Jehovah's Witnesses, as an organization, never predicted the end of the world on such and such a day: that was the Mayans! And probably not even all of them!
However, pretty much every religion in the world believe that the end of the world had come in the 1930's as nothing worse had ever happened to the world so far. Then they believed it again, but ever so much more so, in the 1940's. Not just Christians, either, but really, pretty much all religions.
Jehovah's Witnesses predicted when Jesus would take his throne and they explained what might happen at that point, not as a surety but as a contemplation of possible events. They still hold to when he took his throne and they base that on calculation from the Holy Scriptures.
You may think those calculations are wrong, but, if so, you need to take that up with the author of the Holy Scriptures, not the people who like the way He does his arithmetic!
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HopelesslyHopeful
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Dec 21 @ 3:14PM
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i know, i studied with them for a while. we came to a parting of the ways when i questioned one of their beliefs.
Thanks for the comment! Out of curiosity, and hopefully without opening too big of a can of worms: what was that belief?
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HopelesslyHopeful
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Dec 21 @ 3:18PM
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A 'cult' to me is a negative term which means a following of
a group of people who are controlled by being brainwashed.
Pretty good definition, I think, lovely Miss Choos
And I would have to agree with you and the other person who quoted you, but not in regards to all religions like he said. But what he said about the military: that is exactly what they do! And most people think it's honorable when they do it.
Why, if Jehovah's Witnesses had a boot camp you could just sign up for regardless of spiritual or physical health, I'd be right there! Running 5 miles a day, singing praise to God in cadence; climbing walls of both brick and doubt at the same time.
Oooh I'd be in such good shape!
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EternalFlame
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Dec 21 @ 4:11PM
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It's compounded by the fact that they assume you are going to hell unless they "help" you.
Um...Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe in Hell.
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HopelesslyHopeful
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Dec 21 @ 4:41PM
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In any heresy of teaching and 'cults', there is just enough 'truth' to make it sound good and believeable.
To make one feel 'rightous' or 'doing God's will' according to some 'law'.
Oh I know honey .. and maybe that is all you were doing .. but I was trying to be polite and give you the benefit of the doubt.
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HopelesslyHopeful
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Dec 21 @ 4:56PM
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If that means you have to give up your children to follow your faith like that guy in the blog did. Then you are a cult. NO TRUE CHRISTIAN WOULD GIVE UP THERE CHILD
*ahem* Mary did! Just to make the point. Also, I believe, so did most of the Apostles, but in a different sense of the word.
However, let's not go there. Let's, instead, go here:
There is nothing in that blog which says that he gave up his child due to his religion and even more so does it not say that the religion would require that he does so.
There is a good bit in the comments, however, that says it's no part of that religion. Gee! Thanks for reading them!
But, yes, I think I agree with you that under most circumstances only a cult, in the lowest sense of the word, would demand that you give up your dependent children just to belong to them.
Jehovah's Witnesses don't do that . .though many other Christian faiths have, in the past, in cases of adultery, rape, incest, polygamy, a spouse of the wrong religion, a change of heart of a King, etc. Does that make them all cults in the same sense that you meant, though? Because they don't think they are!
And really I don't think they are ... I think they are, some of the people involved, good and well meaning people who will hopefully study their Bibles intently and seek the will of God and prosper. Though I think much of what the doctrines of men teach them is skewed.
I'll tell you something I see as a marking of a cult and what many persons who rescue others from cults look for: when they tear down and belittle other religions, other people's when they lie about other's teachings, even go so far as to rewrite the teachings of other religions, rewriting history, just to prove that they are correct and bound for heaven and the other people are wrong and bound for hell.
Go look up Jehovah's Witnesses on google and you'll find many, many cults .. made up of people who lie about Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, Jews, etc.
Oh and while you are all at it, please do remember to look up the attitudes of Catholics to Protestants and Baptists and etc, and vice versa, and see how the teachings of all of them have changed over the years. Because the teachings of all those religions has changed considerably and they all accused each other of bearing false witness, of being part of the anti-christ, at some time or another.
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whatagal
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Dec 21 @ 5:26PM
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This is why I detest religion, The "my religion is better than your religion mentality is foolish.
Money and religion are the greatest evils on earth.
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HopelesslyHopeful
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Dec 21 @ 6:28PM
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This is why I detest religion, The "my religion is better than your religion mentality is foolish.
The Bible says that love of money is the root of all evil. Since it's love of money that mostly screws up the religions, as well as other things, I'd agree to that.
It's not about whether my religion is better than .. . whatever .. and you are right, it shouldn't be. It is about not what I like but what I truly believe God wants me to do.
And likewise should it be for anyone.
The problem is when it becomes too much about comfort, money, appearing right rather than being right, etc. All religions have some good points and all of them have some members that have failed or misunderstood.
It is not possible for man to save man; only possible for an individual to seek and find God on their own. The rest is about sharing and helping each other, not conquering others.
Or, it should be.
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kjac
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Dec 21 @ 8:07PM
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I would call the PTL Club a cult.
It takes a cult follower's mentality to listen to any of the television nazivangelists. The PTL is not alone in that regard.
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UnicornLover1962
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Dec 21 @ 8:36PM
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the belief was that they were the only ones that would be in the new world. i couldn't see all the good people who believe and do what's right not having a chance, and when i mentioned this to the people i was studying with, they got all uppity and indignant...and that's when i said adios.....
then again, i also think it's wrong in the catholic religion for people to have to pay to have their loved ones prayed out of purgatory.
when it's all said and done...i don't believe in any religion...except for maybe christianity....even that down to the simplest form...i try to do whats right, i believe in god and jesus and that there is a satan.
when it's all said and done, isn't that all we really need?
huggles
mel
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carpediem48
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Dec 21 @ 10:21PM
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I mentioned before that I no longer study with the Jehovah's Witness's
I also mentioned that my personal experience with the people themselves was good
I admire their integrity and sincerity
I do not admire the 'Watchtower Society' in New York however
Now,,,for some facts
I too wondered about the windows
If you check the history you'll see that many halls were vandalized in the past when they did build them with windows
Seems logical to protect yourself
Also,,,I attended a hall on Vancouver Island that 'did' have windows
It was a relatively new hall,,,and I was surprised
Now for another important fact
IF ALL THE GERMANS HAD BEEN JEHOVAH'S WITNESS'S
HITLER WOULD NEVER HAVE COME TO POWER
I watched a video taken at the Holocaust Memorial Museum in New York
The auditorium was filled with Jehovah's witness's,,,,and Jews
They were being praised by the Jewish community for being the ONLY
Christian Religion who had their own Insignia when imprisoned in the Concentration camps for opposing Hitler
It was the PURPLE TRIANGLE
The JW's were the first of the GOOD germans to be imprisoned
The JW's had the first 'conscientous' objector to be executed
The JW's could have left the concentration camps at any time simply by signing a paper pledging their allegiange to Hitler instead of the God of their understanding
Most didn't
I'm taking historical fact here
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onoudn
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Dec 21 @ 11:17PM
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this would make a great forum thread
great blog ya get a kudos...
I found the following about cults on the net.
Characteristics Associated with Cultic Groups - Revised
Janja Lalich, Ph.D. & Michael D. Langone, Ph.D.
Concerted efforts at influence and control lie at the core of cultic groups, programs, and relationships. Many members, former members, and supporters of cults are not fully aware of the extent to which members may have been manipulated, exploited, even abused. The following list of social-structural, social-psychological, and interpersonal behavioral patterns commonly found in cultic environments may be helpful in assessing a particular group or relationship.
Compare these patterns to the situation you were in (or in which you, a family member, or friend is currently involved). This list may help you determine if there is cause for concern. Bear in mind that this list is not meant to be a “cult scale” or a definitive checklist to determine if a specific group is a cult. This is not so much a diagnostic instrument as it is an analytical tool.
more
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HopelesslyHopeful
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Dec 21 @ 11:38PM
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Thanks for the comment and link Onoudn! But as I started reading their checklist I began to wonder if these persons were not, then, all unpatriotic atheists?
I say unpatriotic because I have seen too many supporters of a political party, General, President, etc. who displayed just such unquestioning zeal .. it was a bit of a joke though for not all patriotic people are quite that fervent.
Anyway, going by the very first thing on the checklist then we'd have to assume that all religions are cults, some of them with better or worse placed loyalties, but all of them cults:
The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.
Well, maybe .. I mean the Apostles did question Jesus, as a certainty, while he taught them and I have certainly questioned both God and Jesus, as well as many priests, preachers, ministers, etc. But, I do not question whether I should be committed to God or Jesus .. and I am not committed to Charles Taze Russell who was, after all, just a man and not even a prophet like Moses. So .. I suppose it depends on whom you consider their leader. Like with the Catholics, if you looked at the Pope you would go "oh a cult! protect the children!" I suppose, because he's just a man, after all, to anyone who is not Catholic.. or he should be .. but their leader is SUPPOSED to be Jesus and I never saw anything wrong with commitment to him...and it was not because I was raised to believe in him .. I just always knew he existed.
It's a lot to think about.
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kjac
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Dec 22 @ 12:14AM
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As far as what some here have to say about JW's, Suck it up HH, it's your turn. The Muslims had a turn for the MD hatred, the Atheists had a turn, and the Blacks had a turn. It's your turn to be told that you're evil and the cause of everything bad in the world. Just remember, you have to be original in how you're stereotyped.
You can't be accused of stealing Christmas, that's the atheists.
Trying to take over the world is reserved for the Muslims.
Hating white people is for the blacks.
My advice is to stick to the whole crazy cult thing. Have fun being in your crazy cult while I try to steal Christmas as we are both hated by Ono. When we're all done, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Muhammed Ali are going to take over the country and make us pray to cardboard cutouts of Jerry Buss and Don King.
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eastham
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Dec 22 @ 8:33AM
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And did you get that from Jehovah's Witnesses or the Catholics? Because neither has ever told me that Jehovah's Witnesses used to be Catholic and both have told me that they never were. But far be it from us to take the word of the people involved in those religions when we could, instead, just believe people who make up shite as they go along. Right?
I think what the poster referencing was the Protestant Reformation, which occured in the 16th century.
Three hundred years later, Jehovah's Witnesses were founded in the 1870's by Charles Taze Russell. The group is a "descendant" of the Millerite Bible movement of the 1840's as are the 7th Day Adventists.
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eastham
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Dec 22 @ 8:56AM
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Where your organization got your "CULT" status was back in the late 1800's and early 1900's where Russell, and other followers predicted "Armageddon" to happen on certain dates.
As I posted earlier, the founders of Jehovah's Witnesses came out of the Millerite movement of the 1840's. William Miller was a Baptist lay preacher, although the Millerite movement is now considered its own sect, and he began a series of tent meetings, during which he predicted that the world would end sometime between March 1843 and 1844. This became known as the "Great Disappointment" and brought about the end of Miller's movement and the beginning of the break away groups, which include the Seventh Day Adventists, the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons -- all very different religions, but with the same genesis.
Charles Taze Russell, the founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses, was heavily influenced by the Millerite movement and Jonas Wendell, an Adventist preacher. Wendell, like Miller, predicted an emminent end to the world, first in 1868, then 1870 and finally 1873.
Russell was also influenced by another Adventist preacher named Nelson Barbour. Barbour also predicted that Christ would return, but invisibly. Barbour met with Russell in 1876 and told him that Christ had returned invisibly, two years earlier in 1874. Russell then published writings and gave speeches that the 1874 date was the beginning of a 40 year "harvest period" and that the world would end in 1914.
Following Russell's death, there was a schims within the JV movement, with certain sects leaving and going by the name American Bible Students. In any event, the mainline Jehovah's Witnesses reconfigured the time line and instead of 1914 being the end of the world, it would be the year Christ would return to earth.
In 1922, the church said that in 1925 the "resurrection of the dead" would begin. This was published in the Watchtower on two occasions: May 15, 1922 and again Sep. 1, 1922. Similar statements on the end of the world were published in the Watchtower in 1938, 1941, 1969, 1975 and as recently as 1984 the Watchtower predicted the world would not survive the millenium.
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HopelesslyHopeful
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Dec 22 @ 11:30AM
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and as recently as 1984 the Watchtower predicted the world would not survive the millenium.
*sigh* Even when you post lies and back them up with alleged dates of them occuring, they are still lies.
I happen to have read the books and magazines and such from 1984 and many years since, though I've missed a wee few from time to time. I have also read extensive materials from Jehovah's Witnesses from their founding on through present day.
Never did they predict the end of the world as to a specific date.
They made comments, as did many other persons, as to how it would be surprising if the world survived WWII or to the millenium or etc.
They would not predict the exact date of the end of the world, thank you, because they know it says very specifically in the Bible that not even Jesus knows that but only his Father does.
However, they also know that Jesus said people will lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against his followers and so they forgive you, following the example of Jesus in forgiving those who don't really know what they are doing. Which is why I forgive you, because I assume you think that you are doing right .. but you are lying, or badly misinformed, so what you are doing is still wrong and I will not tell you it is right or lie for you.
I suggest if you want to know the truth, then you ask to look at the books actually put out by Jehovah's Witnesses and received from them, because other people also do lie, even up to falsifying publications from the past. They do have libraries in the Kingdom Halls where you can look stuff up and if you ask nicely they'll probably help you to do so. Because they know the truth and they have nothing to hide in regards to what you have said here, since they know they never did it.
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HopelesslyHopeful
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Dec 22 @ 11:43AM
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I think what the poster referencing was the Protestant Reformation, which occured in the 16th century.
Three hundred years later, Jehovah's Witnesses were founded in the 1870's by Charles Taze Russell. The group is a "descendant" of the Millerite Bible movement of the 1840's as are the 7th Day Adventists.
Okay, you absolutely CANNOT say that just because the Catholics allegedly existed first that it means that any other Christian faith comes from them.
The Catholics can say that, yes, to some extent, because they have a teaching (a doctrine of man) that says that Peter was the first Catholic. But since the actual Catholic church did not start until the 4th Century, that's not actually true and therefore anyone who is not Catholic and who is capable of reading secular histories has no business saying it at all.
Even in the time of Jesus' ministry on Earth there were other persons who were doing what he taught but who were not traveling with him and his Apostles. The Bible mentions them. Were they Catholics too? Don't think so!
There is a long history in between the death of Jesus and up to Present Day wherein there have always been religious groups, Christian religious groups, who held on to the belief that what should be taught is the teachings of the Christ from the Bible and who were openly persecuted by the Catholics, Protestants later, etc.
The Catholics and the Protestants broke off from each other and who did which first to whom is a matter of great debate. The Baptists broke off from the Catholics and that is a matter of very public record as it officially happened in the 1980's; before that the Baptists were still officially considered Catholic by the Catholic church and by the Baptist church.
Jehovah's Witnesses were never considered to be Catholic by the Catholics or Protestant by the Protestants or Baptist by the Baptists or, indeed, Christian by the alleged Christians at all ... up until their getting beheaded in the Middle East, which has been going on for a very long time, became a convenient thing to hold up to the public as one more excuse for America to go to war!
Because it was one of Jehovah's Witnesses that was the Christian whom got beheaded that there was such an uproar about around 2004.. I don't remember the exact date anymore ... and my, my, my didn't the people of Christendom quake and demand justice .. over a man they would openly spit on, many of them, if not do worse than that too if he dared to knock on their door and tell them that God loves them.
Charles Taze Russell was not a Millerite, by the way, and either were his parents. I can't remember now, but I think they were Protestants. So, heavily influenced or not, he was only a man seeking the truth from the Bible. Nor was he a man that became a prophet, but just a man who wanted to know the truth and the people who joined them were others who also just wanted to know the truth.
He never claimed to be a prophet .. only people of other religions ever claimed that about him.
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HopelesslyHopeful
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Dec 22 @ 11:50AM
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REDIRECT:
My blog is primarily about my definition of a cult, as based on modern usage of the word, and what I know about Jehovah's Witnesses that makes them not a cult.
It is also about the general rudeness of people who go about insulting others religions; especially people who call themselves Christians but then act like anyone who is not just like them, who don't believe just like them, do not deserve to live, thrive, have the love of their children, etc. and how I find that to be hateful and prejudicial.
So please, if you are going to comment, try to focus more on what the blog is about.
Like, if you agree on my definition of cult or if you see it as something else, might be interesting to hear about.
Or if you have similarly been abused because of your religion or what have you and wish to get something off your chest in regards to that, it would definitely not be an off topic comment, since that is one of the primary issues.
But those are just suggestions. I will continue to approve comments, so long as they are not too hateful, cussy, etc. regardless of how off topic they are, but I prefer the off topic ones about Welsh Cakes, I must say!
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HopelesslyHopeful
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Dec 22 @ 12:02PM
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As far as what some here have to say about JW's, Suck it up HH, it's your turn.
Uhm ... it's been my turn since I was .. hmm .. well, a teenager anyway People tried to beat me up, drive me out of town, threatened to kill me, tried to rape me, etc and all for "sounding like one of those Jehovah people".
I wasn't. I didn't even read the Bible, except on startlingly rare occasions. I had sex with a man who was too old for me, smoked cigarettes, occasionally got stoned (very very occasionally though), listened to loud "devil music": Motley Crue, even; which, at the time, was considered to the be the very devilest of all the devil music; occasionally I dressed up in lingerie and went to Phillip's (sort of like Denny's but generally better) for breakfast; and was generally a smart arsed individual who would always run towards the gun fire, the sound of revving Harleys, etc. for "that way lay madness" and madness was where I wanted to be.
I knew the signs for finding the true faith, according to what the Holy Scriptures said, and I wasn't a liar, though (not when it counted anyway), so there you go .. I had little interest in knowing God, though I respected his position and thought it was a good idea, for those who could handle it, to know him. But I was more interested in art and rock and roll and wild romance.
It was the knowing the signs of things, of once reading a scripture of holding it up as more truthful than something in a religion that denies it, in saying that Jesus is not God that caused them to decide I was one of Jehovah's Witnesses and try to kill me, etc. over it.
Which, coincidentally, is one of the signs of the true faith, for a certainty. So if the "Christians" had acted better, I would never have looked deeper into the matter of those Jehovah Witness people. lol
As to the rest of your comment:    I can't wait! I hope we don't have to make any shots from the free throw line though as I would so go straight to hell!.. or would it be that I'd be so benched? *sigh* I'm confused.
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HopelesslyHopeful
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Dec 22 @ 12:52PM
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the belief was that they were the only ones that would be in the new world. i couldn't see all the good people who believe and do what's right not having a chance, and when i mentioned this to the people i was studying with, they got all uppity and indignant...and that's when i said adios.....
Errr. . maybe you were studying with the wrong people! Sometimes there are personality clashes, misunderstandings, etc.
There was one lady I studied with who got that way with me, because she was misunderstanding what it was I was trying to say, and I knew that's what it was but I couldn't figure out how to say it any other way. There were other issues to, thanks to my Ex and his notorious habit of spreading rumors.
Anyway, that is not actually a belief of Jehovah's Witnesses. And I'm not saying that you couldn't have got that out of a study, either because of a misunderstanding or miscommunication between you and them or maybe because of their own misunderstanding of something before they even met you. It's just, truthfully, not anything the religion teaches.
They do say that 144, 000 are going to heaven, as someone mentioned. That does not, however, mean that only 144, 000 will be saved. And what I was told, basically, boils down to that you just don't know who will be saved or not .. except that you know that if you have the chance to learn and teach, etc. and you refuse to take it, or if you go about lying about God and Jesus when you know the truth about them, etc. then it won't be you.
I have never been told by Jehovah's Witnesses that all the Catholic people are automatically doomed or all the Muslims or whatever.. never. Nor have I read it in the literature or in the Bible. And most especially have I never been told that some people out in the jungle somewhere who have never even heard of the Holy Scriptures yet are all doomed when they die. Nor have I ever been told that the learning disabled or insane, those who cannot learn in that way, are doomed.
Jesus is, like his Father, merciful and reasonable.. why would he wish to destroy for rejecting the truth, those who had never heard it? Or those who had not rejected it but were still trying to learn it?
I don't know everything but I do know that Jesus said there is only one unforgiveable sin; and I know that those who have never met him, never felt the power of the holy spirit, can never commit that sin.
The people who teach wrongly and know that they teach wrongly, ala the Pharisees, are bound to be doomed to destruction. But Jesus told even them that if they would admit to being blind, they might be saved.
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Casanova1369
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Dec 22 @ 5:41PM
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yeah i kind of glanced over your blog and I want to say, no it isnt a cult. I am not Jehovah witness, but I went to school with a girl who was. We was friends somewhat and her mom used to come over and debate with me...Apparently I am good at keeping people on their toes. Anyways, during one of the discussions I posed a question to her that she couldnt answer. So can you? If you beliefs state that only 44,000 people or something to that number are going to heaven, then why go out and recruit everyone as you do. I mean I would think you would want the number to be as low as possible so that you may get a seat on that trip. Now I am not asking this to be hateful or poke fun, cause I dont do that. But I would like you to give serious thought to that and try to answer it. I will be waiting
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HopelesslyHopeful
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Dec 23 @ 12:20AM
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If you beliefs state that only 44,000 people or something to that number are going to heaven, then why go out and recruit everyone as you do.
It's 144,000 and I've answered that question a lot on blogs and comments on blogs. But, be glad to answer it again, especially when it's asked so nicely.
First off, this is a quote from the Holy Scriptures and since my computer was hacked and killed recently, this is not from the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, which is the translation primarily used by Jehovah's Witnesses in meetings, but it is from the translation I happened to get first when I opened up BibleGateway.Net and typed in the number 144,000
Revelation 7:4 (New International Version)
4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
and here is another verse about those same 144,000 which I have taken from the King James translation of the Holy Scriptures:
Revelation 14:3 (King James Version)
3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
So, as you can see, it is not really something that is just a belief of the witnesses of Jehovah but it is, in fact, a teaching directly from the Holy Scriptures and one which the Jews and early Christians, both, understood very very well as did many other Christian groups long before Jehovah's Witnesses, under that name, existed as a religious group.
The reason the Holy Scriptures say that there are 144,000 that are sealed, and all of that, is not because the 144,000 are the only ones who will be saved, though. It is because they are, literally, the only ones invited into Heaven because they were proved most righteous and true and therefore they are the ones who are deemed fit to rule with the Christ.
Everyone else, though, well ... the meek shall inherit the Earth and the tent of God will be with mankind. That is what the Holy Scriptures tell us. And Jehovah's Witnesses carry on the work that the Christ gave to his disciples to go and preach the good news of the Kingdom to those who will hear it and to give warning to those who will not. Their reason is to work for God, who wishes all of mankind to draw near to him and be saved in the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ who died for our sins - not just the sins of one religious group but everyone's sins .
Because God wishes this, he sends the willing out to do this for him, in the name of the Christ, because he (God) wants everyone to willingly make a well-educated choice as to whether they will dwell with him for eternity, on Earth as he intended them to be, or whether they would prefer not to exist.
The Holy Scriptures says time and time again that as God purposed from the beginning, he shall fulfill: and he never purposed Mankind to be in Heaven from the beginning or that is where "in the beginning" would have started for us.
That's the gist of it. I hope this answer helped.
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not12bs
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Dec 24 @ 8:20AM
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Mordru, you have me rolling on the floor...."no true christian would give up his child?! I seem to recall an account in the bible where...who was it? Oh yeah, God gave his only begotten Son as a scarifice!
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HopelesslyHopeful
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Dec 24 @ 12:55PM
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Mordru, you have me rolling on the floor...."no true christian would give up his child?! I seem to recall an account in the bible where...who was it? Oh yeah, God gave his only begotten Son as a scarifice!
Thank you. I was going to mention something about that line, including the sheer number of "Christians" who automatically sacrificed their youngest son to the priesthood even if he had no interest, and the people who encourage their children to join the army, and thousands and thousands of alleged Christian men who divorce their spouses and marry other people and pretty much never spend time with their children again. *grrr*
And yes, it's true, that if he did willingly and selfishly neglect his child then he's wrong. But a true Christian doesn't just willy-nilly make up facts by which to judge other people, either. And none of us knows why the circumstances are what they are; not even the woman who was blogging about it.
But, at least she showed a willingness to have an open mind and ask the man, rather than just make up her facts as she'd like them to be and condemn him for what she decided was his faults.
Only then I figured what is the point of mentioning any of that since, after all, the majority of persons I've come across who make that "true Christian" statement - that very one - also usually say that God doesn't count and either does Abraham, since neither of them were baptised Christians. *sigh*
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Josuha
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Dec 24 @ 1:45PM
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It is also about the general rudeness of people who go about insulting others religions; especially people who call themselves Christians but then act like anyone who is not just like them, who don't believe just like them, do not deserve to live, thrive, have the love of their children, etc. and how I find that to be hateful and prejudicial.
You can sincerely 'believe' and believe wrong.
Paul tells the Chruch to 'examine' themselves to see if they are truly in the faith and adhereing to sound doctrine.
2 Corinth 5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified. 6 But I trust that you will know that we are not disqualified.
Scripture itself is for teaching, rebuking and correcting.
The concept of 'tolerance' in the church as far as 'teaching, rebuking and correcting' is a mandmade one, not God's.
2 Timothy 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
It was also prophecised that destructive heresies would enter the church.
That people would leave sound doctrine.
8Paul entered the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God. 9But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus. 10This went on for two years, so that all the Jews and Greeks who lived in the province of Asia heard the word of the Lord.
Titus 2:1You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine. 2Teach the older men to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, and sound in faith, in love and in endurance.
2 Timothy 3:6They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. 8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth—men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.
Phillipians 1:7It is right for me to feel this way about all of you, since I have you in my heart; for whether I am in chains or defending and confirming the gospel, all of you share in God's grace with me. 8God can testify how I long for all of you with the affection of Christ Jesus.
Many who 'profess' to be christian will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven because of 'works'..how 'good' they think they are.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
So, no,..it is not a 'matter' of 'everyone believing like me or someone else.
It is what God says.
And scripture is for correcting and rebuking false doctrines in the church.
Josh
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HopelesslyHopeful
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Dec 24 @ 6:59PM
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Josuha: the Holy Scripture is for rebuking as Jesus did rebuke... and whom did Jesus rebuke?
The Samaritans? No. The Romans? No. He rebuked the religious leaders who were teaching wrong.
And which religious leaders were those? Why the ones of his own people.
So take whatever translation of the Holy Scriptures you see fit to read and go and rebuke your religious leaders for whatever are their very real wrongs in what they teach.
And if I happen to come across any very real wrongs in what Jehovah's Witnesses teach, I shall certainly bring it up to them. However, the one time I heard of that truthfully happening, where one of their higher ups (so to speak) was teaching falsely they caught him at it and corrected it themselves.
Which is the good part about belonging to a people who actually READ the Holy Scriptures and then STUDY the Holy Scriptures. They are much more likely to know what the Holy Scriptures actually say and mean and are much less likely to waste their time letting persons pull the wool over their eyes .. and then wasting other persons time with preaching false doctrine of man at them.
If I wanted to rebuke you, whatever religion you claimed to be, I could do it for the next year and never be done with the sins perpetrated by your religious leaders and anyone who knows the history of religions at all knows that is true.
But when you want to do that same about Jehovah's Witnesses, you can ONLY do it if you either lie or put the sins of all Christian faiths at their doorstep. Because they haven't burnt anyone at the stake, they haven't forced their Kings to flip-flop between religions at the whim and will of the people, they haven't enslaved entire pagan nations and annihilated them AFTER the Christ had given out that a very different sort of action should be taken and they never perverted the teachings of the Christ just to trick those pagans into joining them.
That was some other peoples, indeed, who even go to war and kill their own brothers and sisters because the manmade governments tell them too. And they count it all as "being Christian"
Show me where the Christ ever did the same .. show me how your religion actually teaches , both in words and deeds, with the Holy Scriptures, and then you can presume to insult people who provably do follow them, even unto death.
Keep on topic from now on please. Even when I redirect people back to the point of the blog, you ignore it and attack and insult and lie. I'm very tired of that and I find persons who wish to argue religion to be extremely distasteful.
And considering that people like you, who want to force everyone to worship YOUR WAY (not God's) or not at all, maybe not even live at all, are the first ones to complain about Jehovah's Witnesses thinking they are right, it's also laughable!
Guess what? When some people say it's important for them to be right, they aren't talking about APPEARANCES but good, solid effort.
I will not answer you on this subject, on this blog, with your tone being what it is, again. Nor will I continue to approve comments that are repetitive, off topic, and bordering on the same unwarranted prejudice and hatred that I made complaint of to begin with.
Have a lovely day
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Godless
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Dec 24 @ 7:08PM
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This means that if you are a stripper, a homosexual, an adulterer, a rapist, a gambler, a teacher that maltreats their students, a drunkard, or anyone else who would not be walking around with the Christ (before they changed) then you must change your lifestyle, of your own free will, to be someone who would have been walking around with him.
It is this part that has always sickened me about the religion. My friend, whom I have known for 13 years and never once thought of her as a bad person... one who treats my children has her own... would and has given up her last dollar to help someone else... runs a safe haven in her home for other teens her kids befriend... and one who you could never speak ill of... was shunned by the Kingdom Hall. I forget the official term for it, but they publically humiliated her in the Kingdom Hall and forbade even her family to talk to her - for the simple sin of becoming pregnant out of wedlock by another member of the congregation. The elders knew full well who the other member was, but chose not to publically humiliate him because it would "hurt his marriage."
So, while they may not try to get all of your money, the teachings (by your own admission) are not very Christlike at all. Why I consider this particular religion cultist, is the exclusion of those wise to them and those who faulter.
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Josuha
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Dec 24 @ 7:31PM
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He rebuked the religious leaders who were teaching wrong. \
Specifically, He rebuked those living under the 'law', who forgot what the law was for.
Of putting a yoke on people who them themselves could not carry but whom felt they were 'rightous' under the law.
Do you live by the law?
By 'works'?
Or by grace?
You cannot mix the two.
You cannot say 'I am justified by grace' and in the same breath say 'By the works I do I am accounted rightous or "working' my way to salvation".
Many sects do this.
As stated earliar, this was warned against by the Apostles, Prophets and Jesus (Yeshua) Himself said.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
These people are arguing that since they 'prophesid in his name", cast out demons, and done 'wonders', that they are justified by their 'works'.
He calls them 'lawless' as they are living under the 'law' and have returned to the 'law' or 'works' and no one is justified under the 'law'..
Josh
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HopelesslyHopeful
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Dec 24 @ 7:34PM
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That never happened. You know how I know that never happened? Because the whole public humiliation thing is Quaker!
My nephew, well step-nephew, was one of Jehovah's Witnesses. He was disfellowshipped TWICE Once for drunk driving, where the police were chasing him down the road for miles and .. oh .. assorted things of that nature, including something semi-adulterous with a person who was not of the same religion. It may have just been flirting. But they didn't disfellowship him right away .. and they didn't do it just because he messed up sooooo bad .. they disfellowshipped him because he didn't think he did anything wrong.
The other time was much the same thing, so he was disfellowshipped quicker the next time.
You know how I know about this? Because he told me about it. You know how my sister and her husband knew about it? Because they were taken quietly aside and told about his troubles and asked to give him time to himself, assured that the brothers would check in on him to see if he wanted or needed anything, etc but otherwise he should be left to work things out between himself and God.
I knew a man who was disfellowshipped for committing adultery, by the way; the woman was unhappy, he was unhappy, so he didn't see it as wrong to do. Neither of them was publicly humiliated except by their own actions. And he knew that he was the one who was "shunning" himself because it was his own actions that put him in the position of not following the laws of God and not remaining a part of the congregation. He's a brother again, now; because he realized that he was wrong to cheat on his wife.
So, your friend committed the "simple sin" of adultery, and fornication, and who knows what else went with that. And so did that man. And they kept him so they automatically have to be wrong.. according to you .. right? But, maybe the fact of the matter is that the man was repentant and your friend was not.
Because if your friend was repentant, and she'd actually been one of Jehovah's Witnesses, then she would still be one. That's all it takes, is to realize what you did was wrong and why and to really want not to do it again.. and they so do not publicly humiliate people for their sins. They take them quietly aside and try to help them.
It's when the people don't wish to be helped or cease their actions that are against the Holy Scriptures that they are asked to leave.
But, hey, thanks for spreading more lies, including the one that BY MY OWN ADMISSION their teachings are not very Christ like ?? ?????? I certainly never said that; I've said quite the opposite. But, the first lie, maybe it's not yours, and maybe it's what your friend really told you. But I bet you never went to her congregation or to her family and asked to know their version of the story whilst making it clear to them that it's getting in the way of your viewing the religion as a good thing at all.. did you?
Oh and one last thing: Go your way and sin no more. lol That's what Jesus said to the people who repented, the former whores and such.. he said that and things like that, not: "I cured you so do whatever you feel like and no one has the right to tell you different but should accept your whoring as your right." He did expect them to change, to grow spiritually, to be better persons than they had been before. And he did warn about people who were cured of their sins but didn't take steps in changing their lifestyles afterwards. So... what you quoted that I said was very much Christ like, thank you, because he's the one I learned it from.
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Josuha
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Dec 24 @ 7:39PM
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It is this part that has always sickened me about the religion. My friend, whom I have known for 13 years and never once thought of her as a bad person... one who treats my children has her own... would and has given up her last dollar to help someone else... runs a safe haven in her home for other teens her kids befriend... and one who you could never speak ill of... was shunned by the Kingdom Hall. I forget the official term for it, but they publically humiliated her in the Kingdom Hall and forbade even her family to talk to her - for the simple sin of becoming pregnant out of wedlock by another member of the congregation. The elders knew full well who the other member was, but chose not to publically humiliate him because it would "hurt his marriage."
Again, these people have fallen away from 'grace' and are living according to the law.
"
the people came to Him; and He sat down and taught them. 3 Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst, 4 they said to Him, “Teacher, this woman was caught[b] in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses, in the law, commanded[c] us that such should be stoned.[d] But what do You say?”[e] 6 This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear.[f]
7 So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up[g] and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.” 8 And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience,[h] went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her,[i] “Woman, where are those accusers of yours?[j] Has no one condemned you?”
11 She said, “No one, Lord.”
And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and[k] sin no more.”
12 Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”
The 'teachers of the law' were in darkness..they forgot what the law was for,
Josh
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HopelesslyHopeful
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Dec 24 @ 7:43PM
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It's not that your arguments are invalid in and of themselves, Josuha .. not all of them certainly .. it's that they are extremely misplaced.
You direct them at me in regards to people I do not even belong to myself .. and you direct them in regards to them, the people who are living by the standards, out of all the religious groups I have ever studied with the only people living by the standards, you wish to hold them up to.
If you think they are not following the Holy Scripture then you'd better read the Holy Scripture more closely, pray more fervently, and actually to take the time to observe what they do teach for yourself. Because, dar, that is exactly what they are doing.
How can you say that a religious group whose members willingly put their life on the line to teach the word of God, not just a few members but all the members being expected to participate in this, is only being saved by "grace" and not by "works"?
What is the work but to love Jehovah with your whole heart, your whole being, to love your neighbor as yourself, and to preach the good news of the Kingdom of the Heavens, and to give warning to those who refuse to listen to the good news?
That is exercising your faith .. that is having both faith and works .. and that is following the Holy Scriptures.
I wish you well, but I will not argue with you... and this should not be an argument on either side, because I have a good mind to start calling you Saul instead .. that's who you remind me of .. so much zeal, so much fire, so much truth in some regards, but so misplaced at the moment. ...
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HopelesslyHopeful
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Dec 24 @ 7:47PM
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Again, these people have fallen away from 'grace' and are living according to the law.
Again, you are so wrong.
These people are following the teachings of the Christ and by you agreeing with this Godless person, which ID should give you a clue Josuha, you are denying those same teachings of the Christ.
If they were living by the law, they would have stoned both her friend and her lover to death. That was the law.
To live by spirit and truth says that you forgive, you protect, you help, and if the person insists on being something other than with God, you let them go .. as the Christ himself directed.
Goodbye Josuha
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Godless
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Dec 24 @ 7:51PM
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That never happened. You know how I know that never happened? Because the whole public humiliation thing is Quaker
I can honestly say I've never studied anything about Quakers, so I won't say anything good or bad about them.
I will say this, though. You have told me I am a liar. I am not. Have I called you a liar or anything else? Have I told you something that isn't true? No.
And I know this to be an actual event, where the congregation was asked to pray for her and her "wicked" ways and that she will earn the right to re-enter the Kingdom Hall someday. Repentence wasn't enough, and I have no idea what they wanted from her. She was disfellowshipped, not allowed to call for a meeting with the elders, her mother couldn't give her advice. She did what any sensible person would do and left... now they're after her, calling her to "help" her, etc. And, since she moved back to the mainland, they haven't found her yet, but I'm sure they're trying. If they knew that her mother was in regular contact with her, she would be disfellowshipped as well.
Now, the JW may not call this humiliation; however, when your business is spread all over the place and you are not allowed to go to your own church to worship, and you are pointedly shunned by virtually everyone you know, what would you call that?
Here is a very good article for you to read, if you are open-minded enough to accept anything outside of your own dogma.
http://www.skeptictank.org/hs/cultdyn.htm
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HopelesslyHopeful
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Dec 24 @ 8:05PM
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Now, the JW may not call this humiliation; however, when your business is spread all over the place and you are not allowed to go to your own church to worship, and you are pointedly shunned by virtually everyone you know, what would you call that?
I would call that 1) a lie because that is not how things are done... none of what you said. They have very strict rules about that.
The rest, however, under the circumstances described, I would call someone having made a conscious choice not to follow the teachings of the Holy Scriptures and therefore being disfellowshipped by the congregation that they themselves chose to leave.
And them being "after" her and calling it "help" is exactly what I was talking about, about them not just kicking people out and leaving them them stranded, except that you put a rather malicious little spin on it. Good twisting, that!
And you did call me a liar, by intimation, thank you. Because you said tht I admitted that Jehovah's Witnesses do not teach in a Christ like manner, or, something like that; and I never did. That means you lied and you were saying, during that lie, that I had lied before when I said they follow the teachings of the Christ.
Can't say it's been fun, but I can say that's enough wasted pearls .. you are Godless, and you are vindictive, and you are untruthful. Goodbye.
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moodymama
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Dec 31 @ 5:36PM
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I was raised a JW. After growing up I realize its is very much like a cult.
What Godless is talking about is called "dis fellowship". She is pretty right on about it as well. My Aunt got dis fellowshipped once. Oh man did they make her pay. She was shunned, she was allowed to attend the meetings, but no one was allowed to talk to her. It was advised that family not even associate unless it was an absolute emergency. Also my other aunt, her sister died of breast cancer during that time. She wasn't even allowed to the funeral. It was held at the kingdom hall.
Truthfully, would the Elders approve of your dealings with us "worldly" people? The answer is no.
It is also disturbing to me that JW's get all excited when the world is going to hell. You get pleasure from seeing atrocities happening. "Oh look isn't it wonderful! The end is near!" The witnesses have made predictions over the last century of when this is happening.. all of them failed... I remember being told we were living in the last "days" then the last "minutes".... then came the last "seconds". It's fear mongering.... And should be condemned.
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HopelesslyHopeful
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Dec 31 @ 10:54PM
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What Godless is talking about is called "dis fellowship".
Yes I know I mentioned it several times and no one said they didn't do it. But they don't just select someone at random and go "Hey, let's abuse them and set an example." And it is the other person's choice whether they stay or go. I have a nephew and have had friends who were disfellowshipped.
And honestly did Jesus associate with worldly people?
And honestly, did you ever read anything I wrote, ever, where I claimed to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses?
The very fact that there is an "unless it's an absolute emergency" clause, as you so semi-correctly stated, is ample proof that it is not abuse, abandonment, humiliation... of the bad sort anyway.
And sorry, but no .. you may have been told that by some individuals, but you were never taught that in a Kingdom Hall. You aren't old enough to tell me that you were around and learning things from people when I was too young to understand it for myself. I know what they taught, and it wasn't that.
And,lastly, please do make up your mind. See, you act as if Jehovah's Witnesses gloat over the suffering of others - which is patently untrue - and how everyone will die soon.. and then you say it's fear mongering to look forward to an end to that suffering? The two things don't go together.
The truth is that they are not being happy over the misery of others, especially as many of them have been tortured, jailed, maimed, mutilated, and beheaded for being what they are. The truth is that they are looking forward to a time when no one will ever be tortured, born blind, molested, beaten, sold into slavery, forced to live in poverty, etc. again.
It is only something to fear, that end of cruelty and disgusting filthy habits, if you happen to be cruel or filthy. People who look forward to living without it, have nothing to fear from the end of it coming.
Have a lovely day.
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HopelesslyHopeful
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