SunBabe
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May 16 @ 9:41PM
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They are normal functioning human beings. If some are emotionally or mentally disturbed, it's because of people like you who won't accept them into normal society.
Much of what gay's seek can be done by legal contract BTW, that's not true.
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maggiemae684
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May 16 @ 9:42PM
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I beg to differ....gay marraiges do not precipitate legalizing bigamy etc.
"Most gay's are emotionally, physically and mentally disturbed people" - the psychiatric community quit labeling homosexuality as a mental illness a couple of decades ago. Also....in my years of working acute psychiatry.....very few of our clients were homosexual....most were heterosexual.....and yes, the area that I worked had a high percentage of homosexuals in the population.
"Acceptance is a strong human need"....yes it is and who are we to judge what is different from what we choose for ourselves....being different doesn't make it wrong
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briteyes35
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May 16 @ 9:43PM
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well said maggie
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lazareth
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May 16 @ 9:48PM
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i hope what I'm going to say makes sense but gonna give it a shot anyway
The word "marriage " to me has always meant a bond, a legal and spiritual bond between a man and a woman. Yeah, getting married has its benefits(?) aside from having someone to come home to everyday, to love, to be loved and all that mushy crap (sorry, not mincing words here) But getting married also includes my husband being able to carry me under his medical insurance at his job. Him making decisions in a medical emergency .....
Now, I have heard alot of stuff in the news that gays want the same benefits as heterosexuals have as far as insurance, being able to make medical decisions in case of an emergency and so forth. I'm sure ya'll have heard it all as well.
I am not anti-gay. What ever floats yer boat. its a personal matter, keep it that way.
I just have a problem gays using the term "marriage" . Maybe just my narrow-mindedness. And alot may not agree with me. call it a binding contract, a pledge, what ever. But "marriage " just doesn't seem to fit for some reason.
Really not wanting to start a pissing war here.....
JMHO
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LongRanger278
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May 16 @ 9:54PM
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They are normal functioning human beings. If some are emotionally or mentally disturbed, it's because of people like you who won't accept them into normal society.
Typical. Gay's are normal, O.K. gotchya. They suffer from depression due to people like me.
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LongRanger278
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May 16 @ 9:58PM
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I beg to differ....gay marraiges do not precipitate legalizing bigamy etc.
No?, please explain. What would be the legal definition of contractual marriage law under California law today?.
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lefthandedluckie
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May 16 @ 9:59PM
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LongRanger278...said this..."Most gay's are emotionally, physically and mentally disturbed people. ".....!!
I believe the disturbed one is the poster of this blog!  
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LongRanger278
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May 16 @ 10:04PM
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the psychiatric community quit labeling homosexuality as a mental illness a couple of decades ago
Yeah and the same people want to make obesity a medical illness. It's the same thinking that goes along with making 25,000 polar bears in the arctic today an "endagered species" when in the 1950's there were only 5,000.
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LongRanger278
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May 16 @ 10:07PM
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LongRanger278...said this..."Most gay's are emotionally, physically and mentally disturbed people. ".....!!
I believe the disturbed one is the poster of this blog!
There not?, then what are they Lefty? define a gay man for us Lefty.
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maggiemae684
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May 16 @ 10:08PM
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LR.....I know for fact that Canada has had legal gay marriages for 4 or 5 years now and last I checked bigamy etc is still illegal in Canada.....and NO canuckie bashing here.....as for California law....send me the law books and I will do the research but at this time I am not familiar with California state laws.
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maggiemae684
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May 16 @ 10:10PM
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obesity IS a medical illness....sometimes life threatening.
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LongRanger278
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May 16 @ 10:11PM
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yes it is and who are we to judge what is different from what we choose for ourselves....being different doesn't make it wrong
So being a hetrosexual is a choice? did you wake up one day and say I think I'll be a heterosexual?.
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andyorange
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May 16 @ 10:13PM
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Here is a solution: Get the government out of the marriage business and leave it to the religious organizations. After all, they invented it.
Current tax laws discriminate against unmarried persons, both gay and straight.
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lefthandedluckie
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May 16 @ 10:14PM
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LongRanger278.....You are the one making statements that have no basis in fact! Where are your links to back up what you have said? Your statements, from what I know, are absolutely ludicrous! 
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hpylady1
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May 16 @ 10:14PM
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I have always been told ... don't criticize until you've walked a mile in my shoes .. in this case I think that applies.
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LongRanger278
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May 16 @ 10:14PM
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LR.....I know for fact that Canada has had legal gay marriages for 4 or 5 years now and last I checked bigamy etc is still illegal in Canada
Yeah, tell me how many polygamy groups exist in Canada?
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fenderchick
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May 16 @ 10:15PM
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Gay people just want to marry who they love, just like most people who want to get married. It's a celebration of their love and show's their commitment to each other. 
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maggiemae684
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May 16 @ 10:15PM
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LR.....homosexuality is not a choice either....it is a genetic make up....learn the facts and then let's battle this between us in e-mail if you wish....not in the blog comments.
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loisday
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May 16 @ 10:16PM
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Who disputes that?
I dispute your narrow minded judgements against a fellow human.
You watch too much media hype..and then try to make what you have seen/read into an actual truth............ 
I'm sure it's pretty deeply ingrained..................I can't imagine how you feel about woman, other races, small children, for that matter.............
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LongRanger278
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May 16 @ 10:18PM
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LongRanger278.....You are the one making statements that have no basis in fact! Where are your links to back up what you have said? Your statements, from what I know, are absolutely ludicrous!
Lefty your true to form. Are you ever going post any facts to the contrary? or do you like dispute via stupid comments?
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maggiemae684
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May 16 @ 10:19PM
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LR....I must say....I am feeling rather honored right now....you have chosen to pick apart each one of my statements here....something you have not done with any other comments...did I touch a nerve with you dear.... 
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LongRanger278
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May 16 @ 10:22PM
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I dispute your narrow minded judgements against a fellow human.
You watch too much media hype..and then try to make what you have seen/read into an actual truth............
I'm sure it's pretty deeply ingrained..................I can't imagine how you feel about woman, other races, small children, for that matter.............
Dispute via personal feelings. See! most everyone who has posted a comment does so with no fact or understanding of the big picture. Tell me why should gay's be able to legally marry and not a 18 year-old man and a 15 year-old girl?
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poeticcougar
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May 16 @ 10:22PM
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yes Canada has gay marriage BUT did you know it is still working on laws for gay DIVORCES? The first female lesbian couple married tried to file for divorce within 6 months of marriage and couldn't because a divorce is the dissolution of a marriage between men and women....not the same sex.
and it DOES lead to other atrocitiies being made right...look at the bigamy happening in Mormon colonies in BC and Ontario right now. Or the "triple" relationships (1 woman, 2 husbands...sorry can't remember the real term). The Canadian gov't is trying to find ways to allow these as well. so saying it stops at gays is wrong.
Canada's statuatory rape laws say 14 is the legal age of a consenting adult. so why can a 60 year old man marry a 14 year old in a Mormon run community but everywhere else he'd be called a pedophile?
this is all WRONG!
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LongRanger278
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May 16 @ 10:24PM
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LR....I must say....I am feeling rather honored right now....you have chosen to pick apart each one of my statements here....something you have not done with any other comments...did I touch a nerve with you dear....
funny, I don't see any fact posted by you other then bla,bla,bla so who struck a nerve?
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Kat_luvr
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May 16 @ 10:27PM
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wonder how long this will remain?
personally? Men and women procreate. MEN/Men and Female /female cannot... left to their own devices the world population would cease to exist........LOGIC THEREFORE Dictates it is not correct.
As for it being a birth or genetic thing? and not a CHOICE? I have seen and heard too many times people say THEY CHOSE....Suddenly they awaken after being with the opposite sex and annouce they are switching...  ....IMO a very small percentage are actually born that way.....
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SallyF
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May 16 @ 10:29PM
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I find it very disturbing and arrogantly exclusive when any individual choses to present his own opinions as facts and closes his mind to others---sometimes entire groups of others. There's a fear factor here, but you CAN overcome your fears of 'others'. We humans have come a long way towards understanding the damage done by stereotyping and labeling which causes the dysfunction to which you allude.
Thank you for opening up your comment approval---this is a first, one of my comments on your blogs actually being posted for all to see.
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LongRanger278
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May 16 @ 10:33PM
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Thank you for opening up your comment approval---this is a first, one of my comments on your blogs actually being posted for all to see.
oh yeah, when did you post a comment on one of my blogs that wasn't approved?
I have 4 people on my block list, funny your not one of them.
Liar, liar, liar. Typical..............................
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LongRanger278
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May 16 @ 10:38PM
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Is someone going to post some evidence that men who have sexual intercourse with other men are perfectly functioning human beings? They are as normal as Richie Cunningham or the Fonz......................................... 
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poeticcougar
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May 16 @ 10:41PM
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I have to agree with Kat_luvr 
but furthermore, for all who agree and applaud gay marriage... would you be on the side of a beastiality mariage? Why not? I mean if each person is allowed to choose who he marries, why not his dog? To me it is sick and utterly repulsive but to the person who's doing it, it is natural. Why does that perversive nature turn your stomach yet you turn your back on the art of procreation between man and woman and okay gays and lesbians?
I mean do you ever see "Straight Pride" parades? Do we flaunt our straightness, our heterosexuality, do we march to city hall and protest that our rights are taken away? Why is it easier for a same sex couple to marry than Americans and Canadians of the opposite sex....so what they come from different countries? Why are you not protesting that? 
Thanks Long....but I'm getting frustrated with the opposition to your wonderful blog
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LongRanger278
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May 16 @ 10:46PM
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wonder how long this will remain?
And I deleted one of your comments when?
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alivenwell351
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May 16 @ 10:47PM
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So being a hetrosexual is a choice?
You void the entirety of the point your blog with this one statement..
Have you ever awakened one morning and decided I think I'll get it on with a man today??....no???...well me neither!!!
You are absolutely right...hetros come out wired that way...
Those attracted to the same sex come out wired that way too..
Very, VERY seldom is it a personal choice which way one is oriented...
Same sex attraction is not unheard of in the animal kingdom in general, and among primates in particular...despite what some TV preacher, some "holy" book, or some ideologue might wish otherwise, for whatever reason, it's nature's way...
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jers04
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May 16 @ 10:50PM
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I don't know. The way I heard it was God created Adam and Eve. Not Adam and Ralph.
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hereshannon
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May 16 @ 10:55PM
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If we would make just two changes in America, we could eliminate the majority of the problems associated with the gay marriage debate. Number 1, we need universal healthcare. Number 2, eliminate the IRS and go to the national sales tax.
That way every American would have health benefits, and every American would be in the same tax bracket whether they were married or not. Then the churches in America could decide who they wanted to marry and who they did not, based on their respective beliefs. The Government and the courts should have nothing to do with this issue, at the moment I think they have more pressing matters they should be addressing.
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LongRanger278
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May 16 @ 10:55PM
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You void the entirety of the point your blog with this one statement..
Have you ever awakened one morning and decided I think I'll get it on with a man today??....no???...well me neither!!!
You are absolutely right...hetros come out wired that way...
Those attracted to the same sex come out wired that way too..
Very, VERY seldom is it a personal choice which way one is oriented...
Same sex attraction is not unheard of in the animal kingdom in general, and among primates in particular...despite what some TV preacher, some "holy" book, or some ideologue might wish otherwise, for whatever reason, it's nature's way...
pulease.............................. so a dog who humps my leg is what? gay? unfreaken believable..........................
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LongRanger278
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May 16 @ 10:58PM
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I don't know. The way I heard it was God created Adam and Eve. Not Adam and Ralph.
Well according to the libs the big bang created gay's and evolved into gay apes..........
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johnnysacs
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May 16 @ 10:59PM
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let's just boil it right down,,,,sir,,you are a disgusting human being period...
you are all that's wrong with the world,,no question about it and not even open to debate..
clear enough adolph?
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hpylady1
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May 16 @ 11:04PM
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I grew up in a small town .. down the street from me lived a brother and sister .. sister shingled roofs .. painted and wall papered for a living .. tough gal and she had a girlfriend .. they bought a house and lived happily ever after .. the brother just the opposite .. he tended bar .. very feminine .. these two people would do anything for anyone .. very nice people. My mother warned me about the hobos on the trains .. the old men that always wanted to kiss the young girls for a quarter .. but never once was I warned about these neighbors.. and your probably thinking what's your point .. my point is that there are a lot worse things going on that we should be concerned about. IMO
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poeticcougar
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May 16 @ 11:09PM
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calling him Adolph because he has an opinion? wow who's playing Adolph now and censoring Long and his mind. why stop at blaspheming Long and go after myself and every other commenter who agreed with this blog?
this is the start of being "closet hetero"....when gays have more rights than the straight people, oh wait, it's almost there. look at all the people sticking up for gays...who's sticking up for the straight people? when the day comes I'd be proud to stand on Capitol Hill with you Long and protest...oh wait, I can't, I'm Canadian and the Border patrol won't let me cross without a fight 'cause you never know when a white woman who speaks English is a terrorist!
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alivenwell351
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May 16 @ 11:10PM
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let's just boil it right down,,,,sir,,you are a disgusting human being period...
No he isn't...he has an opinion that I...and many others...happen to disagree with..
In fairness, many do see it his way...but there was also a time many folks agreed that there was nothing wrong with slavery...
The fact that a court upheld a right is NOT an endorsement of it...it's simply a legal recognition that something is what it is...
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LongRanger278
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May 16 @ 11:12PM
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let's just boil it right down,,,,sir,,you are a disgusting human being period...
you are all that's wrong with the world,,no question about it and not even open to debate..
clear enough adolph?
Ah, I'm what's wrong with the world. I'm open to debate. Tell me what's normal about 2 men having sexual intercouse and we'll debate. Tell me what's normal about a man who dresses like a girl and we'll debate. Tell me what's normal about a man that has all the personality traits of a female and we'll debate. Tell me why it's illegal for a 18 year-old to marry a 15 year-old girl and we'll debate. Until then quit blabbing at the mouth.
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johnnysacs
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May 16 @ 11:14PM
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i stand by my statement,,
The Extermination of Homosexuals in the Death Camps
Precise figures on the number of homosexuals exterminated in Nazi Death camps have never been established. Estimates range from 10,000 to 15,000. It does not appear that the Nazis ever set it as their goal to completely eradicate all homosexuals. Rather, it seems, the official policy was to either re-educate those homosexuals who were "behaviorally" and only occasionally homosexual and to block those who were "incurable" homosexuals through castration, extreme intimidation, or both. For a fascinating empirical sociological examination of this idea, the reader is referred to the work of Reudiger Lautmann. Nor does it appear that their efforts extended beyond Germany itself to the occupied territories.
However, the numerous testimonies by homosexuals who survived the camp experience suggest that the SS had a much less tolerant view. Those who wore the pink triangle were brutally treated by camp guards and other categories of inmates, particularly those who wore the green (criminals), red (political criminals) and black (asocials) triangles. The following testimony by survivor, Heinz Heger, provides a dramatic illustration:
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johnnysacs
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May 16 @ 11:15PM
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sound familiar?
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johnnysacs
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May 16 @ 11:19PM
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Ah, I'm what's wrong with the world. I'm open to debate. Tell me what's normal about 2 men having sexual intercouse and we'll debate. Tell me what's normal about a man who dresses like a girl and we'll debate. Tell me what's normal about a man that has all the personality traits of a female and we'll debate. Tell me why it's illegal for a 18 year-old to marry a 15 year-old girl and we'll debate. Until then quit blabbing at the mouth.
none of this is any of my business..live and let live,,,
and yes i understand it's just the poster's opinion...
and this is mine,,,,,fair enough?
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RainSongSpirit
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May 16 @ 11:24PM
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LongRanger278
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May 16 @ 11:24PM
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The fact that a court upheld a right is NOT an endorsement of it...it's simply a legal recognition that something
Alive you got it and here is the problem. This is the point, legislation with no morality. No thought of the consequence, no thought of accountability, no thought of the mass. This is where we are today. Rational and logical doesn't play a role anymore.
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poeticcougar
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May 16 @ 11:24PM
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to back up the opinions by the poster:
polygamy etc...
multiple partners
same sex parenting
I could go on but as you can see, these are NOT from a religious standpoint and DO back up the posters opinion
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alivenwell351
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May 16 @ 11:29PM
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Here's another special interest group that has threatened, bullied and brainwashed their way into legal existence.
I'm guessing that had the term been around back then, Martin Luther King and others who advocated equal rights for minorities might have also been called a "special interest group" by some...
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LongRanger278
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May 16 @ 11:31PM
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The Extermination of Homosexuals in the Death Camps
Please show me where I indicate or elude to the extermination of gay's?
Let me ask you, if the definition of driving 45 mph on a posted roadside sign was vague or skewed what would happen?
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johnnysacs
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May 16 @ 11:37PM
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i no longer wish to discuss anything with you,,i said what i had to say, as you did,,,let's agree to disagree,have a nice life 
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LongRanger278
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May 16 @ 11:40PM
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I'm guessing that had the term been around back then, Martin Luther King and others who advocated equal rights for minorities might have also been called a "special interest group" by some...
And this is a comparison? please show me. Show me how you have come to the legal conclusion that the black america plight is similar to the gay plight. Give me a legal arguement that a gay Boy Scout leader should have the same constitutional rights as black Boy Scout leader.
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alivenwell351
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May 16 @ 11:47PM
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Here's another special interest group that has threatened, bullied and brainwashed their way into legal existence.
For starters....
Innocent until proven guilty..
Assumes something as fact not yet in evidence...
Kind of the same legal principals that don't allow all priests to be categorically legally condemned because of the actions of a perverted few...
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fenderchick
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May 16 @ 11:55PM
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One quick question. If 2 lesbians were making out and getting ready to be intimate and invited you to watch would you?
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LongRanger278
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May 16 @ 11:55PM
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For starters....
Innocent until proven guilty..
Assumes something as fact not yet in evidence...
Kind of the same legal principals that don't allow all priests to be categorically legally condemned because of the actions of a perverted few...
So we should wait and see what happens and that the obvious conflict of interest ought not play a role. You know something, that's the same thinking that killed 37 people at Virginia Tech.
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LongRanger278
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May 17 @ 12:05AM
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One quick question. If 2 lesbians were making out and getting ready to be intimate and invited you to watch would you?
If 2 gay men were making out, ready to be intimate and invited you to watch would you? Let's make it more interesting. What do you find more disgusting. 2 men making out or a or a 25 year-old male and a 15 year-old girl.
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hpylady1
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May 17 @ 12:16AM
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or a 30 yr old woman with a 70 yr old man ... 
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LongRanger278
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May 17 @ 12:19AM
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or a 30 yr old woman with a 70 yr old man ...
or a 70 year old woman with a 30 year old man..............
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poeticcougar
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May 17 @ 12:20AM
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There is PROOF that the world will uproar when an older man hooks up with a much younger woman. Look what happened when Jerry Lee Lewis married his much younger wife. When Anna Nicole married that old guy. .the high school student who is in jail now at 18 for dating a 15 year old in his high school! when a teenage girl goes online, tells a man she is 19, they meet, he gets thrown in jail for luring a teenager. why is this wrong but the rest isn't? and why is everyone skipping that question? good point LR
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hpylady1
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May 17 @ 12:21AM
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That don't borther me too much ...
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imlost2
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May 17 @ 12:26AM
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I can understand everyone's comments and opinions, the only thing that worries me is if a young minor, boy or girl, ends up with a gay adult, how does one tell the difference if it's contributing to the delinquency of a minor? How does one tell the difference between pedofiles and just close friendships of the same sex? For example if a gay adult male has relations with a male child, no law is broken, but now if that child is gay or he convinces the child, how is the law going to take it? Pedofile or contributing? It's all confusing to me and opens another can of worms.
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hpylady1
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May 17 @ 12:31AM
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Any adult that has relations with a child is a pedofile .. IMO
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imlost2
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May 17 @ 12:32AM
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One other problem is roommates whether gay or not will be able to get benefits if all is allowed. There isn't enough Social Security now, it will bankrupt the insurance companies and many other systems because there is so much room for fraud. People filing dependent tax status, etc. how does one tell the difference. And what about common law marriage states? I just think it's going to mess up the economy more than it is if people of the same sex can get benefits like married people, I mean worse than it is already.
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IrisRain
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May 17 @ 12:42AM
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I am not gay (unless you use the term to refer to being HAPPY) but if I were I would want the same protection afforded by our country to couples who are legally married.
We could debate the issue of nature vs nurture and the lifestyle being a choice til we are all blue in the face. I have known and worked with enough individuals to understand that it is not usually a choice. So, are you saying, by virtue of birth they should not enjoy the same protection under the law that those of us who were born heterosexual?
Have you ever heard of a term…..Social Justice? It does not apply to only those outlined by traditional paradigms..... 
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LongRanger278
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May 17 @ 12:48AM
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Have you ever heard of a term…..Social Justice? It does not apply to only those outlined by traditional paradigms.....
O.K., give me your legal defintion of marriage. Produce a law that prevents a brother and sister from contractual marriage.
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hpylady1
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May 17 @ 1:08AM
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marriage .. the state of being married .. wedlock .. the act of marrying or the ceremony entered into by a man and woman so as to live together as husband and wife. .. Merriam- Webster
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alivenwell351
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May 17 @ 1:12AM
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I'm so glad that long ago I figured out that just because something doesn't make any sense to me...or something I'd never do...or maybe even something that makes me go uhgg (as the thought of getting it on with another man does!!)...doesn't mean it can't be...
Different isn't always wrong...
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hpylady1
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May 17 @ 2:13AM
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ooops ... you said legal definition
Marriage .. A contract made in due form of law, by which a free man and a free woman reciprocally engage to live with each other during their joint lives, in the union which ought io exist between husband and wife. By the terms freeman and freewoman in this definition are meant, not only that they are free and not slaves, but also that they are clear of all bars to a lawful marriage.
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deeliciousme1
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May 17 @ 5:28AM
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I agree with you on this subject...I think as a whole we should leave a few of our core values/definitions alone...I think gays should have equal benefits/rights without getting "married". I get the point and have used it myself about pedifiles and incest. If marriage is redefined, it's a matter of time before others that are different will organize for their plight...Slavery and gay marriage are 2 different issues and can't be compared, period. Disagreeing with gay marriage doesn't make us bad, gay bashers, ignorant, or sexually insecure. I find we often get insulted by those that preach tolerance...I'm secure enough in myself and the person I am to voice this opinion...Thanks for the blog.
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LongRanger278
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May 17 @ 9:33AM
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I am not gay (unless you use the term to refer to being HAPPY) but if I were I would want the same protection afforded by our country to couples who are legally married.
Sure you would but that's not the issue. The issue is does your wants come with consequences to the rest of society. Does legalizing marriage between same sex parties lead to other challenges to marriage law, the answer yes it does and yes it will.
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Slohand_47
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May 17 @ 10:26AM
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Personally, I think hereshannon has the definitive answer. In case you missed it, I'll repeat it.
If we would make just two changes in America, we could eliminate the majority of the problems associated with the gay marriage debate. Number 1, we need universal healthcare. Number 2, eliminate the IRS and go to the national sales tax.
That way every American would have health benefits, and every American would be in the same tax bracket whether they were married or not. Then the churches in America could decide who they wanted to marry and who they did not, based on their respective beliefs. The Government and the courts should have nothing to do with this issue, at the moment I think they have more pressing matters they should be addressing.
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hunt4luv
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May 17 @ 11:34AM
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There is A whole lot I could say about homosexual behavior and how unnatural it is.
but this blog has not been posted on religious belief as its purpose of posting so I will respect that.
I agree Long Ranger that what Gays seek is Acceptance.
As to medical benefits it is well known that Aids is far more prevalent among Gay males. and these people run up serious medical expenses. I cant imaging placing the burden of gays perverted lifestyles on the insurance and medical community and social security system to even greater damage then it has been done already.
We all make our own choices in life. shouldn't we all pay our own prices for the bad ones? I have another Question for you.
Since the Gay thing is allowed to roam free and given the rights of marriage.
this opens doors for other messed up ways of doing things.
What happens when the woman insists that the man take her name and wants to make this acceptable. Though I haven't heard of it, It wouldn't surprise me if it should pop up. Our Christian beliefs are being trashed as we sit idly by. The price of acceptance can be very high.
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Sterling555
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May 17 @ 11:59AM
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People are NOT born gay. It is against the laws of nature.
Whenever I hear someone who believes that being gay is normal, I lose respect
that person.
No intelligent individual would ever believe this.
Better read the Bible.
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Sterling555
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May 17 @ 12:12PM
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Whenever someone loses an argument, they bring out the labels 'You are homophobic' 'You are narrow minded"
yet to not believe in the gay lifestyle is NOT being either
it is being rational
people are NOT born gay
there is a plethora of scientific information that backs this up yet you can't get CNN to share this because they will be attacked
by who?
by gays
anytime you say something they don't want to hear, they get angry
it is gays, and not us rational human beings, who are intollerant
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Wolf36
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May 17 @ 12:24PM
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Lets look at this question from a physiologically viewpoint, rather than the psychological aspect. For those of you that adamantly oppose the notion of a person not being born gay, please consider the fact that people are born everyday, with sex organs that don't match their male or female characteristics as a whole. ie; a female in every way, accept she has a penis, instead of a vagina. How does the bible explain this and what were these people's choice in the matter? An even better question is, which sex is this person suppose to be attracted to?
Ranger, it's been a good conversation on a controversial subject
Wolf
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imlost2
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May 17 @ 1:49PM
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I hear that they are also forcing kids in school to accept same sex parents etc. I'm sure they have rights, but I also have rights. I don't feel that I or my family should be "forced" to accept this lifestyle if it's against our beliefs. I don't like how it gets shoved down a person throats as acceptable when it's our right to not accept it. Personally, the Bible is very clear of whom you can have sex with and whom you cannot, it even mentions relatives and beasts. Therefore, for our freedom of religion which is a "right" by the Constitution, please don't be forcing my kids to accept something they do not wish to accept. tc Lost
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observed50
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May 17 @ 3:10PM
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In every fear of social change, people inevitably bring forward the 'slippery slope' logical fallacy to argue that if you do 'X'...all hell breaks lose because X leads to Y, Y to Z, and before you know it...men are sleeping with sheep and calling her "Mrs."
Every society gets to define what it feels protects the well being of the society. Some of the definition is purely ideological ('gays/lesbians shouldn't marry) and some of it is functional (speed limit around schools is to be 15mph). Because society's use of law is a limited resource, with only so many police and so many courts, laws are often written to diminish the frivolous use of legal/security resources, while recognizing that humans by their nature are a very frivolous animal.
So the question of what the law protects and what it doesn't is an organic struggle between ideology, resources, and societal well being. Limited resources means the alignment of 'interests' around the different relationships to those resources. History of law is the struggle of people of lesser power, arguing with people of greater power...they should have more benefits of the societal resources. From the Magna Carta on up...'we the people' has grown broader and broader in its application, and because law is most often written to be universal/general in its application, though it wasn't originally intended to apply to people with lesser power...the language of the law ultimately is forced to allow...because of its universal characteristics.
Arguments against gay marriage through the slippery slope fallacy falls on its face because there is no logical link between extending the protection of marriage benefits to adults who love one another regardless of orientation to extending protection to adults who love most anything, dogs, sheep, horses etc. Polygamy versus monogamy is an argument that awaits the courts at some point regardless because there are no necessary reasons for monogamy but ideology - polygamy is an accepted form of marriage in more societies in the world than it is not...we just don't like it in western societies. Why???? Couldn't tell ya...but for Christian ideology. The extension the courts spoke to is about extending to consenting loving adults. There is no hole in there that allows consenting children, Fido's or corpses.
In the course of social change, 'pride' parades originate because the dominant culture seeks to silence and make invisible those it considers 'less than.' Hetero's don't need a pride parade because they already dominate the social forms and access to societal resources. They are proud to arrogance within their protection of the social resources they seek to keep from others. Same reason you don't have National Association for the Advancement of White People - oh wait...you do...people afraid of the social changes that have made minorities not as 'less than' as they use to be...I'm sure we'll see people afraid of this social change organizing similarly.
Depression associated with gay/lesbian identities is heavily linked to the social silence imposed on their lives - loss of familial support and love, denial of jobs, housing and benefits, denial of public acceptance, etc. Many homosexuals move far away from home to be able to live openly their lives while cutoff from families who either cut them off, or families the person fears and believes will cut them off if they know. I've been the first person many young people have 'come out' to in my former role as a university professor, because they felt I wouldn't judge them, something they feared their parents would never understand nor accept. Often afraid, depressed and alone...something one chooses????
The use of 'normal' as a defense for any societal response to its citizens, is to suggest that we're all supposed to be alike. That's absurd in its foundation. We are different in a myriad of ways. What is 'normal' for heterosexuals is not 'normal' for homosexuals. Because heteros are the larger group, with the courts, pulpits and guns in their control, they call the shots in law. But numbers of people who think something is right does not make it right by any means...an issue known as the 'tyranny of the majority'. If it was true that 'normal' was useful for anything but studying group conformity patterns, and the largest number of people doing it determined the 'right' norm to follow...then we should all be chasing after being morbidly obese, blacks would still live under Jim Crow laws in the South and Jews should have been allowed to be exterminated in the second World War.
AIDS and gays are linked here in the US. In much of the rest of the world, AIDS is associated with Heterosexuals. The fastest growing group of AIDS infections in the US, last I knew, was heterosexual black women.
I knew you were looking for some serious social analysis Long...hope this helps.
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SallyF
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May 17 @ 3:34PM
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thank you, Observed.
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loisday
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May 17 @ 3:55PM
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Observed ..............
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johnnysacs
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May 17 @ 3:56PM
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observed,,,simply brilliant sir,,,,
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LongRanger278
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May 17 @ 4:36PM
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Observed,
Depression associated with gay/lesbian identities is heavily linked to the social silence
Clinical depression is a disease. It has nothing to do with social silence. If that was the case everyone on the planet would be depressed. We all are silenced in one way or another.
Much of what you wrote is fallacy, wishful thinking but no reality. You ignore the consequence's because you are short sighted.
The use of 'normal' as a defense for any societal response to its citizens, is to suggest that we're all supposed to be alike
So what your saying is that 2 men having sexual intercourse, inter-acting as a family unit, raising children, etc. is close enough to normal? not to far off the mark? a measure of conduct that should be considered a model?
In every fear of social change, people inevitably bring forward the 'slippery slope' logical fallacy to argue that if you do 'X'...all hell breaks lose because X leads to Y, Y to Z,
If gay rights, laws don't evolve how do you explain grade school and high school students wearing dresses to school?. Do you think 2 boy's kissing in the school hallway should be considered no different then a boy an girl doing the same?
The rest of your response is nothing but, I don't what to call it other then garbage.
I knew you were looking for some serious social analysis Long...hope this helps
Yeah, so when you going to post it.
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imlost2
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May 17 @ 4:54PM
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As far as I can tell, the USA is still a Democracy where majority rules and votes are suppose to count. Therefore, if the majority rules and feels gays should not be married, which holds true in nearly all but a very few states, then majority rules. Same with any sect, cult, or whatever recieving benefits from our tax dollars, insurance companies etc. If majority and the courts rule it out, then that is the law. Minorities do not rule the USA or are not suppose to according to the Constitution no matter what your belief is.
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Dixielady67
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May 17 @ 5:12PM
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Long....
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poeticcougar
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May 17 @ 5:29PM
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Do you think 2 boy's kissing in the school hallway should be considered no different then a boy an girl doing the same? in my son's school it is not allowed for boys and girls to hold hands let alone kiss. see I said "boys and girls". a lot of schools up here adhere to no PDAs.
Does anyone remember the uproar in Canada when one gay student wanted to bring his boyfriend to Prom? (There's even a movie about it starring Shawn Ashmore) That night, Prom night, they crown a King and Queen NOT a Queen and Queen.
and unless you're Scottish and donning a kilt, no skirts for boys!
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observed50
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May 17 @ 7:41PM
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Clinical depression is a disease. It has nothing to do with social silence Long> Depression is both biological, and social psychological - i.e., environmental. Like disease can be both genetic and environmental in cause, so can mental illness. Children sexually abused by parent or other...depressed as adults. Many environmental sources of depression, most associated with a person's experience of disempowerment, loss of control, feeling less than that demanded by the ideals others want them to meet, others including themselves.
Your point about everyone is silenced one way or another doesn't lessen my point about the sources of depression for gays/lesbians. It simply points to the reality of the science around depression...the greater the social silence imposed on a person for key/critical social/self identities, the greater the likelihood that person will suffer from depression. Why don't we all suffer as you suggest? Because not all silencing is so important to self-identitification, nor are all coping skills the same, nor is the form and source of silencing all equal. Emotional responses, like any biological function, is a variable affected by the number, intensity and duration of other variables. I spend a lot of time with a friend who is rather religious, so I never talk about a lot of things important to me because I know she doesn't feel comfortable when I do. Silenced? Yes. Depressed? No? Why...because what I am silent about is unimportant to that relationship space and I am able to express that side of me in many other places.
You offered the following...Much of what you wrote is fallacy, wishful thinking but no reality . Would you care to identify the fallacy...???? Or is this simply an assertion? A fallacy is an error in logical argument. What is the error?
As I mentioned before, the history of law is a struggle. I don't know what you're referring to about grade schools and high schools and dresses on boys. You might want to reference all these assertions of yours of our path to 'hell in a hand basket' so those of us not attuned to your information flow can follow what the heck you're referring to...but...it doesn't deflate the logical fallacy of slippery slope. It isn't a marriage law that leads to boys wearing dresses...its boys wanting to and society not hammering them for doing so.
Yes...when you grant more personhood to people the social herd has tried to keep as 'less than' people...once you do so...than personhood is personhood...full and fair. Its why we go so beserk as a species...we want the world to look like us...god damn it!...and we scramble for some form of authority or another to keep 'them' from being like 'us'. It's one of the great values of thousands of years old texts...who can argue with the authors?
Again, 'normal' is a measure of a set of objects that points to the average of something. You are right...normal family units in the US, as a nation...hub, wife, kids. And so what does that tell us? Does it tell us which kids will be murderers? Scientists? Artists? NeoCons?
The family is the human institution of greatest violence across societies, greater than even militaries, because militaries are often not in use...simply there for deterrence. Meanwhile, everyday, somewhere in your neighborhood, some person has lost control and is hurting a love object because they don't know how to extract the conformity to one's desire that is so important to the perpetrator. It is the place of greatest personal tragedy and trauma because it is the source of our self-informing.
It is not some mystical unit in which great things come because there is a man and woman. All the fact of a man and woman tells us is that the two might be able to breed. Doesn't matter whether a god or gods created Adam and Eve or Ralph and Adam or Lizzie and Eve. Humans suck at living well together, and so far, hetero's sure have a messy history to convince anyone from outside lookin in, that being hetero is some balanced life form that produces great things.
You obviously have issues with the difference of people...its not that two men loving each other and having a family is dangerous or threatening in any real way...its that you don't like it. Its not that boys kissing in the halls is dangerous or threatening, its that you don't like it. And because you don't like it...and can hide behind the herd's 'norm' of man and woman, well...thereby, everyone should behave like the herd.
Yet the Constitution is a document that is fundamentally about preventing the herd from imposing on people the herd's norms. Yes...democracy is about majority rule...BUT...a quick reading of the Constitution makes evident again and again how much the authors recognized that majority's are just as capable of ignorance and evil as any single individual or minority. The right to free speech isn't about protecting people who want to moo like the herd...its about people who want to do it different. The right to assemble isn't about people who want to gather and wave flags and support the herd....its about people who don't. the Bill of Rights again and again...lifts the rights of the minority against the majority.
So the Senate exists because the framers knew that big states would control it all if there wasn't a balance for the small states, the minority. Law is always a balance against the majority, because in its universality, it prevents the majority from willy-nilly imposing undue regulation and constraint on those with whom the majority disagrees. If I have a right to a trial, then vigilantes can be contained. If I have a right to a jury of my peers, the white southern male juries can slowly be dismantled in Federal courts when they are seated to try young black male accused, because it can be shown, the majority cannot provide equal access to the law, equal access to due process.
Any appeal to norm, or majority, is simply a logical fallacy known as the bandwagon fallacy, or the fallacy of appeal to popularity. Majorities don't make something right...nor does something being normal. Again...if normal was a measure of right...Jim Crow laws would still be in affect in the South.
I appreciate your efforts to dismiss the previous arguments by a sweeping dismissal as fallacy and wishing. But those aren't counter arguments. They're simply assertions with no argument. Now some might agree wit
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observed50
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May 17 @ 7:46PM
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(cut off)...Now some might agree with your arguments because they agree with your stance...but it isn't your argument that is valid. You can't make valid arguments which contain so many logical fallacies.
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fenderchick
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May 17 @ 8:04PM
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I personally don't want to watch anyone make out with anyone. No matter who they are.
It's not up to me to judge them though.
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Blueschic
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May 17 @ 8:37PM
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Long......
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imlost2
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May 17 @ 10:04PM
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There might be many facts on why people are gay, and I won't argue with them. However, I also don't care who sleeps with whom and don't need it shoved in my children's face when I am trying to teach them my faith which doesn't allow for same sex marriages. Heck, even fornication is against every religion that I know of, for hetrosexuals as well. Therefore if the issue is who you choose to have sex with, it's really no ones business. I believe it's about money so same sex can get benefits like I said before. Otherwise, they'd just live together in peace like many hetrosexuals do, knowing they don't qualify for married couples benefits. Not every couple can marry according to law, like cousins, brothers, sisters etc even if they feel they are in love, there has to be a line drawn somewhere.
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LongRanger278
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May 17 @ 10:17PM
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Depression is both biological, and social psychological - i.e., environmental. Like disease can be both genetic and environmental in cause, so can mental illness. Children sexually abused by parent or other...depressed as adults. Many environmental sources of depression, most associated with a person's experience of disempowerment, loss of control, feeling less than that demanded by the ideals others want them to meet, others including themselves.
Your talking about stress or poor life situation. Feeling sad or disappointed is not clinical depression nor depression at all. Clinical depression is a disease in which the individual if left untreated is unable to function normally and can lead to death. Clinical depression is not caused by example: unable to meet the ideals or expectations of others. Though the individual may be depressed the root cause of the depression is a predisposition to the disease.
What's the first question a physician asks? any family history of mental disease in the family.
Would you care to identify the fallacy...???? Or is this simply an assertion? A fallacy is an error in logical argument. What is the error?
Most of your postings are that of a amateur. A bad one at that. Not only do you not
know what you are talking about, you think you do.
Do you think the authors of the Constitution intended that 12 year old boy's have a consituional right to dress like girls for school?
You obviously have issues with the difference of people...its not that two men loving each other and having a family is dangerous or threatening in any real way...its that you don't like it. Its not that boys kissing in the halls is dangerous or threatening, its that you don't like it. And because you don't like it...and can hide behind the herd's 'norm' of man and woman, well...thereby, everyone should behave like the herd.
The blog is about the legal ramifications of gay marriage and how law evolves. You brought this into a personal issue as most do when they have no valued arguement. What I like and dislike has no bearing. Love is not a legal arguement.
Because 2 men or 2 women love each other has no legal bearing in the legislation of law.
Your arguement is simply based on personal feeling Observed, nothing more. Further, your an example of what is going terribly wrong in our law making process. Law making based on agenda's, personal feelings and irresponsible interpretation of the Constitution. How you feel about something is not a legal arguement. Law making is intended to benefit, protect and secure a civilized society. How civilized are we when we allow a 12 year old male to decide to wear a dress to school? how civilized are we when we legalize that which is not the norm or unatural? If we take away the line between normal and abnormal what are we left with to mirror.
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LongRanger278
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May 17 @ 10:32PM
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I personally don't want to watch anyone make out with anyone. No matter who they are.
It's not up to me to judge them though.
So what your saying is that you would be nor more offended, disgusted or disapprove by 2 men kissing then a man and woman. Also, the blog is about the legalization of gay marriage not about judging people. I disapprove of illegal immigration does that mean I'm judging illegal immigrants?
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poeticcougar
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May 18 @ 12:16AM
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It's bad enough that kids in schools are bullied for no reason but let's add that boy in a dress to the hallways, that girl with the sock in her pants...
Ever watch Sally Jesse Raphael? She had a girl who dressed like a boy, acted like a boy, everything. SHe had a girlfriend who never knew she was a girl. The girl was so devastated when she found out she attempted suicide! Now tell me that it is OK?
Remember Jenny Jones wherein secret crushes were revealed and a guy came out with a crush on another guy on national tv? The guy was humiliated and embarrassed so much he went ballistic.
Stop trying to force the lifestyle on those who don't agree with it because according to statistics, the gays and lesbians ARE the minority and always will be.
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loisday
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May 18 @ 1:41AM
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Observed............
Thank you for very well written, intelligent truths...
Instead of fear filled, narrow minded bigotry......Thank God..........these are the MINORITY!
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hpylady1
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May 18 @ 2:56AM
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I've been sitting here trying to figure out what rights married people have that are so important .. I guess if one of them have insurance then the other is covered .. I can't think of much else .. I've been married twice and the only thing I feel concerned about is my kids having a dad and his name .. I feel there should be a family unit of some kind to raise kids in .. my only regret looking back is that I didn't stay with my first husband and make it work... my kids seem fine now but I know what they went through .. I wish that had been different. Do you realize that if 2 people are married and they both work and pay into social security when it's time to retire and get your social security .. you can only get one check .. to me that is sooo wrong .. if 2 people work and 2 people pay in .. they should both get a check.
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johnnysacs
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May 18 @ 8:41AM
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Instead of fear filled, narrow minded bigotry......Thank God..........these are the MINORITY!
ding ding ding! we have a winner!
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observed50
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May 18 @ 9:24AM
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Long> I appreciate the 'voice' of your argument where you seek, in a common male fashion, to appear an expert when you're not, but it doesn't make truth or validity appear from thin air. Take a quick peak at Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_depression) to understand depression as a little more than the material you found in an attempt to discredit my point. I think you'll find under 'causes' elements of what I shared above, lower end of page talking of sociological causes.
When asked to make evident the fallacy of my arguments...this is the evidence you offer>>>
Most of your postings are that of a amateur. A bad one at that. Not only do you not know what you are talking about, you think you do.
That's a rebuttal?? That's it...a really horrible attempt at sidestepping the need for logical evidence by once again trying to rely on the logical fallacy of name calling??? C'mon...pretend the people reading take life seriously, and want real information, and don't treat your readers as idiots |