| Aug 8, 2006 @ 12:23 AM |
Alcoholics
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WickedWench
Posts: 1,613
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Someone asked in another thread whether alcoholism is genetic or inherited.
http://www.psych.umn.edu/courses/spring05/dionisiod/psy3061/alcoholism.htm
......... studies have surely demonstrated the family aggregation of alcohol dependence, finding a three- to four-fold prevalence of this dependence among first-degree relatives when compared to subjects of the general population..........
Personally I believe it is both but it's difficult to ascertain whether it's genetic or inherited. I find them to be very angry, abusive and liars, generally speaking. While I realize it's a "sickness" I think that booze needs to be far more heavily regulated then what it is. Booze kills way more people and causes more damage to not only society but individuals etc. Drunk drivers should have their licenses taken immediately and forever. No second chances. None.
I would never date a "reformed" alcoholic. Would you? Do you believe they can "heal" completely? I don't. I think that whatever the issues are usually are still there...
Even those that I know that have successfully completed a "Twelve Step Program" still need counselling. Most have huge issues that the booze only ever just covered up. And you can see it on here as well 
http://alcoholism.about.com/od/genetics/a/blacer060508.htm
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| Aug 8, 2006 @ 1:40 AM |
Alcoholics |
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stormy73
Posts: 1,181
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I believe that it CAN be both genetic and inherited, (but isn't "inherited" just another way of saying it's "learned behaviour"?) which is why I've NEVER tasted ANY kind of alcohol in my entire life(Both parents were alcoholics)! I'm not only proud of that.... I'm smug about it! 
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| Aug 8, 2006 @ 5:17 AM |
Alcoholics
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beckyiv42000
Posts: 14,576
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Alcoholics and druggies can be both... yes there is a gene that predisposes a person to addiction BUT and heres the kicker... even with that gene peoples OWN FREE WILL is what either leads them down that path or takes them in the other direction no one can MAKE you drink or MAKE you use drugs THAT is your own choice and if you have that gene or not ,the amount of usage is a deciding factor in most cases ...as to the extent of the addiction... a person who ONLY has a few beers a day is still ADDICTED same as a cigarette smoker or coffee drinker etc...using any substance to alter your mindset is an addiction including food... or GASP ! sex hence the myriad of COHOLOICS... sexaholics foodaholics etc.. but as with ANY addiction UNLESS YOU want to be free of it you never will... some just find it easier to deal with life while buzzed or sedated with something... and no amount of scientific studies can alter the fact that YOU CHOSE to use alcohol drugs etc... I have known my share of alcoholics who get drunk everyday and then those who CHOOSE to keep a reign on thier addictions KNOWING that they are easily sucked in... again the FREE WILL PART in action..
I know some are gonna call me a zealot or somethign not PITYING the poor druggies or alcholoics cause they cant stop... I cry BS on that.. BIG time, its only because they DONT WANT TO STOP that they don't, not because they CAN'T
yes i smoked for 27 years and one day said screw it cold turkey no more smoking my pack aday (got up to 3 at times) and yes in my younger years I did drugs (no excuses here i liked em ) but justlike the ciggys one day cold turkey no more .. I saw what it had done to friends of mine and didn't want to go down that path... Used to go partying drinkin n bar hopping too at least 3 drinks a night many times much much more then again decided getting drunk everynight was NOT where I wanted to be .. now Ill have a few now and then or like at partys or gatherings I let loose but it is NOT an every day thing so no saying she does not know what shes blabbering about :P
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| Aug 8, 2006 @ 6:44 AM |
Alcoholics |
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sciurusniger
Posts: 2,958
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There is a genetic component, there is also a societal component. Then, I believe there is a mental component as well. A physiological wiring of some brains that causes them to have what I simply call an "addictive" type of personality. For some the addiction is food, for some sex, for some drugs, for some alchohol. But it is also possible and seems likely from my own personal and acknowledged-as-limited experience with alcoholics (both active and recovering), that in some the brain is wired not only for alcoholism but for depression, which may or may not be diagnosed before they begin drinking and the alcoholism genes come into play.
When someone is unfortunate enough to contain all three, they have the hardest row to hoe. Habits are one thing. Physical addictions are another. But when the root cause is clinical depression AND genetics, one really must have some compassion. I'm not saying to simply put up with their manipulations or their abuse. Certainly I will not. And it is true that often only they alone can reach the point of deciding to seek the proper help. But one really needs to see each case individually and realize that in some cases, it's no longer entirely a matter of free will. That would be like telling someone who is paralyzed that it's all in their head, for they still have nerves and (most) nerves regrow eventually, so they just have to make up their mind to get up and walk. Extreme example, yes. But again, based solely on my personal experiences, there are some cases of alcoholism that are similar enough to warrant such an analogy.
I would love to see a ban on advertising alcohol and stiffer first-time penalties for things like drinking and driving.
As for recovering alcoholics, some have dealt with their root cause issues, some have not. I simply take them on a case-by-case basis.
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| Aug 8, 2006 @ 7:35 AM |
Alcoholics
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uab_5
Posts: 4,759
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There's no such thing as "completing a 12-Step Program". The 12-Steps are design to be worked throughout the patients life.
Further there's no such thing as a "reformed alcoholic". There are "alcoholics" and "drunks", because an alcoholic admits his problems while a drunk drowns them in alcohol.
Someone is an alcoholic because they say they are, and not because they are told.
Addiction is a mental illness just like borderline personality disorder, depression, and schizophrenia.
It has to be treated for the rest of the patients life.
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| Aug 8, 2006 @ 8:40 AM |
Alcoholics |
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Earl47
Posts: 1,552
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What people need to do, is do what i do SIMPLY DON'T DRINK BOOZE!!!
Every profile i see says social drinker, sorry folks but if you drink any alcohol you are a drunkard and killing your liver......Earl
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| Aug 8, 2006 @ 9:40 AM |
Alcoholics
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Jankia
Posts: 11,912
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Interesting thread WW because it was I that wondered if it could be a genetic thing.
I would have to disagree that there is no such thing as a reformed alcoholic,many are able to reform,and if you drink any alcohol you are a drunkard and killing your liver.Limited alchohol consumption can be beneficial for your health
.I was told that by my cardiologist.
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| Aug 8, 2006 @ 10:27 AM |
Alcoholics |
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jeanc200358
Posts: 934
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I don't believe in attaching the stigma to alcoholics who quit drinking that they are perpetually a "recovering alcoholic." If you drink to excess and fit all the criteria of being an alcoholic, then you're an alcoholic -- or, the way I prefer to say it, is you're suffering from the disease of alcoholism.
You don't call a patient with cancer a cancerholic, do you? No, you say they have "cancer."
I don't know that I entirely fit into the standard box of "alcoholism," but I quit drinking, cold turkey, nearly four years ago. Also quit smoking. Haven't had one drop to drink nor one cigarette ever since September 30, 2003. I didn't struggle with it, I never had the urge to light up again or to get "just one beer" or anything of the sort.
I know it's not that easy for a lot of people. And going through the physical transition (i.e., the "withdrawal") of your body being used to nicotine and alcohol to the point where your system is "normal" again is not an easy one, especially if you've got other things going on at the time, too.
But it's ridiculous to assume that people who stop drinking have some kind of major lifelong struggle going on with it. I quit because I don't think drinking and smoking is healthy. The one drink a day thing might be okay, but I'd just as soon not drink at all. I also quit drinking and smoking because I told myself many years ago that if I hadn't quit by the time I was 45, that I was going to. And it dawned on me that September 30, 2003, while sitting outside sucking down my 4th can of Bud Lite and smoking a Vantage Ultra Light 100, "I'll be damned. I've been 45 since June 2. Time to quit." So, I drank the rest of my beers (hey, no sense wasting it, huh?) And smoked the rest of my pack of cigs and that was it.
No biggie.
And I haven't had any "issues" with it ever since. No need for "counseling," no need for any kind of mentor intervention, none of it. But I'm a very VERY strong-willed and stubborn person.
Now, I'm not knocking AA for those for whom it works, but my personal opinion is that its approach seems a tad belittling. I don't see the point in having to get up in front of a bunch of people and "confessing" that you're an alcoholic. I think they already know that. I think everyone there knows it. Everyone there is in the same boat. I mean, sure, I see where they're going with it, but I, personally, don't think it's necessary to do that. I think it's, in a sense, demeaning, not cleansing.
Anyway, I went with a friend of mine one time to a meeting and had to sit in the waiting room for two hours while he went in, but, soon as he got finished, first thing he did was stop by the liquor store and get some whiskey and beer. And barely even got to the car before he was popping the top on one of the beers.
I asked him what was the point of going to the meetings if he wasn't going to abstain for even a day?
He said, "Because it makes me feel better."
Okay. Whatever.
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| Aug 8, 2006 @ 10:44 AM |
Alcoholics
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uab_5
Posts: 4,759
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People don't dump mass quanitiesof alcohol or other drugs into their system with out cause.
When I see some one have more than a couple or say "I need a drink", I belive they are hiding from something. There is something in their life that they need to self medicate to relieve themselves of.
Low self esteem?
Guilt?
Shame?
Loss?
Mental illness?
A very high percentage of psychiatric patients are dual diagnosis. When you're down you turn to anything to pick yourself up: alcohol, marajuana,cocaine, opiate, etc.
There is no shame in admiting weakness. There is shame for society to condemn those that are weak.
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| Aug 8, 2006 @ 11:04 AM |
Alcoholics |
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WickedWench
Posts: 1,613
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and if you drink any alcohol you are a drunkard and killing your liver
Not my words Jankia.
And you're not the only person on this site who has made this comment....
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| Aug 8, 2006 @ 11:38 AM |
Alcoholics
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Kimmaranclh
Posts: 132
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I come from a family of alcoholics....it runs on both sides and I deal with it everyday. Alcoholism is definitely in my mind a hereditary disease. I've watched Grandparents, Uncles, Aunts, and Cousins become alcoholics. I myself keep a tight control over what I drink when I'm out and I don't bring alcohol into my home unless I'm having guests over and even then I usually ask them to bring their own so they take whatever is left with them when they leave. It's something I'll do for the rest of my life so that I know I won't develop a problem. I'm not an alcoholic but I never want to become one either.
I would date a reformed alcoholic because I KNOW it's possible to gain control of the disease. It becomes a joint effort when you are in a relationship because now your partner is responsible to help you succeed. That means keeping alcohol out of the house, drinking non-alcoholic beverages when you go out, not putting your partner in situations of temptation. Not all alcoholics are abusive and angry. My Grandfather was an alcoholic and was one of the nicest men you would ever meet.
Alcoholics will always need counseling and the 12 step program should never be stopped. That's not a bad thing in my opinion when someone still goes to counseling even if they have been sober for years. It keeps them aware of the fact that they will always have a problem and renews the desire to keep clean.
It takes a strong person I think to date someone that is always going to be considered recovering....once an alcoholic always an alcoholic. But knowledge is power and I applaud everyone that has taken the steps to conquer this disease.
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| Aug 8, 2006 @ 11:47 AM |
Alcoholics |
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kattsmeow
Posts: 22,629
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They have an addictive personally.
If it isn't alcohol, it would be something else.
I do believe that alcohol is the worst drug of all. Yes, it is a drug!!!!
It ruins more family's than any other drug.
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| Aug 8, 2006 @ 11:57 AM |
Alcoholics
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Kimmaranclh
Posts: 132
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I also believe it's an addiction and those that are alcoholics have addictive personality...but you can be addicted to healthy things and learn how to focus on those instead of the bad things. I've seen alcoholics that have changed their lives and while it's always with them...they are able to move foward and have a successful family and career.
I also know that you don't have to have past issues to become an alcoholic...some just really genuinely enjoy the taste of alcohol..it's like crack or cocaine...once they get a taste...they can't stop. It's a true sickness if there ever was one. And it does destroy lives. A very serious issue that has many many causes.
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| Aug 8, 2006 @ 12:31 PM |
Alcoholics |
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jeanc200358
Posts: 934
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I certainly don't believe saying "I need a drink" to be necessarily indicative of alcoholism, or any any deep-rooted psychological manifestation. Many people have a drink or two to "unwind" and go about life in a normal fashion.
My father, on the other hand, was a full-fledged, "card-carrying" MEAN drunk. He drank every single day (after work) and all day long on the weekends. He never missed a single day of work in his life and worked for the same company from the time he was 16 until his retirement in his late 60s. He died shortly thereafter, though -- the ravages of alcohol and cigarettes on his heart and lungs is what killed him.
For others it interferes with their work, their social life and interactions, and their psychological and/or physical health, and to varying degrees.
As to whether or not it's genetic or a learned behavior, I think it could be either/or but I also think it could be a combination of both. But I do agree that before a person can successfully quit, they have to truly want to quit and they have to be able to deal with the "tough part" that goes along with the quitting.
But he functioned "normally" (at least in the workforce) all of his life.
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| Aug 8, 2006 @ 12:37 PM |
Alcoholics
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waiting41
Posts: 1,926
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I'm an alcoholic WickedWench, but not to worry, I don't want to date you anyway. You may want to think twice, however, about judging others, having not been in their shoes. Just my own personal opinion of course. And, btw, genetic and inherited? They mean the same thing. Perhaps you meant to say "environment"? Or "learned behavior"? 
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| Aug 8, 2006 @ 1:28 PM |
Alcoholics |
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uab_5
Posts: 4,759
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And, btw, genetic and inherited? They mean the same thing. Perhaps you meant to say "environment"? Or "learned behavior"?
The psych types would call it "nature vs. nurture".
Dating an another alcoholic would rock! That way no alcohol would be around.
BTW today is my secong sobriety birthday!   
Happy B'day to me!
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| Aug 8, 2006 @ 1:46 PM |
Alcoholics
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SylvanDreams
Posts: 2,133
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But it's ridiculous to assume that people who stop drinking have some kind of major lifelong struggle going on with it. Jean, it is not ridiculous. It is not that way for everyone, but it is that way for some.
You said you quit drinking and smoking, and have had no problems, no urges to drink or smoke since. You are a very lucky woman. And you are to be congratulated.
My father was not that lucky, or that strong. He was an alcoholic. He went to AA meetings, he had some kind of drug that would make him sick if he drank while taking it, he tried many things to quit drinking. At times he succeeded ... for up to a year and a half. Then one day, he would be drunk again. And he was a very vocal, mean drunk. He got off the booze again, and it lasted maybe six months. This cycle continued for years and years. When he was too sick from drinking to work (which happened surprisingly few times), my mom was an enabler, and called his work to cover for him.
I have also talked with a drug addict (or reformed drug addict, or whatever). He said he could be clean for years, but one day, he would "hit the wall" and the need for the drug would be uncontrollable. Years after he got 'clean'! He will be fighting that battle for the rest of his life.
These are addictive personalities. Perhaps they are weak. Perhaps their minds were not wired strongly enough to enable them to overcome their addictions. But for them, at least, as for many, many others, it is a lifelong struggle.
When my marriage was falling apart (the last 7 years of the 11 it lasted...what can I say? I am Catholic...), I refused to touch a drop of alcohol, even in social situations. I knew I had a predisposition toward alcoholism (I'd guess that at least three of my siblings are alcoholics), and I did not want to take the chance that it would become a crutch I felt I needed at the first sign of any stress...and take me down the road to full-blown alcoholism.
My father fought his addiction for years. It was a lifelong, daily struggle for him. He finally quit drinking the day he put a gun to his head and blew his brains out when could no longer live with what he was doing to his family. He was only 55 years old.
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| Aug 8, 2006 @ 2:35 PM |
Alcoholics |
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jeanc200358
Posts: 934
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Jean, it is not ridiculous. It is not that way for everyone, but it is that way for some.
Nooooo, I mean it's RIDICULOUS to assume that for everyone who quits drinking, they must therefore HAVE to have some kind of struggle with it. For example, I told my mom once, after I had quit, that I was going to a barbecue. She asked me if there was going to be people drinking there. I said, "I'm sure there will be." She asked me if I was going to have a "hard time." Ummmm...hard time? Excuse me? Why? I told her, "If I want a drink, I'll go down to the store a half a mile away and pick up a six pack."
You said you quit drinking and smoking, and have had no problems, no urges to drink or smoke since. You are a very lucky woman. And you are to be congratulated.
Thanks, but no "congratulations" are in order. It's not like I did anything to be congratulated for. I simply wanted to be healthier. I was not a bad person when I drank or smoked, so I don't feel that, by quitting, I "accomplished" anything, if that makes sense.
My father was not that lucky, or that strong. He was an alcoholic. He went to AA meetings, he had some kind of drug that would make him sick if he drank while taking it, he tried many things to quit drinking. At times he succeeded ... for up to a year and a half. Then one day, he would be drunk again. And he was a very vocal, mean drunk. He got off the booze again, and it lasted maybe six months. This cycle continued for years and years. When he was too sick from drinking to work (which happened surprisingly few times), my mom was an enabler, and called his work to cover for him.
My father was the same way and he quit a few times, then always inevitably came home with a bottle of Scotch, claiming it was "fill in the blank" holiday. Then it got to where, "It's Tuesday! And Tuesdays only come once a week!" was his "holiday" excuse. Only difference between mine and yours was that he never did miss any work. How he did it we still wonder about to this day.
I have also talked with a drug addict (or reformed drug addict, or whatever). He said he could be clean for years, but one day, he would "hit the wall" and the need for the drug would be uncontrollable. Years after he got 'clean'! He will be fighting that battle for the rest of his life.
I could understand "hitting the wall," to an extent. But, it's hard for me to understand hitting it to the point that you'd take the risk of going through all that hell you went through just to get high again. Of course, a lot depends on what psychological and organic things are going on in your brain at the time, too.
I know a woman who is a crack addict who was clean for three whole years! And she started up again. Amazing.
These are addictive personalities. Perhaps they are weak. Perhaps their minds were not wired strongly enough to enable them to overcome their addictions. But for them, at least, as for many, many others, it is a lifelong struggle.
I believe I pointed that out, albeit to a lesser degree, in my previous posts.
When my marriage was falling apart (the last 7 years of the 11 it lasted...what can I say? I am Catholic...), I refused to touch a drop of alcohol, even in social situations. I knew I had a predisposition toward alcoholism (I'd guess that at least three of my siblings are alcoholics), and I did not want to take the chance that it would become a crutch I felt I needed at the first sign of any stress...and take me down the road to full-blown alcoholism.
Wise decision.
My father fought his addiction for years. It was a lifelong, daily struggle for him. He finally quit drinking the day he put a gun to his head and blew his brains out when could no longer live with what he was doing to his family. He was only 55 years old.
That is very tragic and I'm sorry you all had to go through that.
My father didn't commit suicide in that sense, but he killed himself with the alcohol and cigarettes nonetheless. His abusiveness towards us, his neglect (he barely fed us) and the fact that his last act of defiance was to write us out of his will (having had accumulated an estate and assets worth over $250,000, unbeknownst to us until after his death) pretty much led us to have little sympathy over him and his "plight" of alcoholism. His drinking didn't excuse abusing his own children.
We all have our different tales of suffering, though. It was a hard life, being with my dad, but it's also one reason I'm so strong today. Suffering teaches perseverance and strong will, if nothing else.
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| Aug 8, 2006 @ 3:23 PM |
Alcoholics
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waiting41
Posts: 1,926
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It is no doubt that alcoholism is a very powerful disease. If one does not take care of themselves spiritually, emotionally and physically, then they are bound to relapse. Remember, that it is entirely possible for individiuals to be also dealing with other issues besides the alcoholism itself that can compound the situation so don't be so quick to blame every flaw in an alcoholic on the alcholism, ya know? There is clear evidence that this disease runs in families often skipping generations, however it is possible to become addicted to something simply by doing it, as in the case of cigarettes or crack or many other illegal substances. There is still research being done in this field, however, looking at the possibility of an "addictive" gene. I still can't say I know of many people that stay social "crack" users for long, and, over the years in my work I have met many.
Congrats uab 5. Way to go!
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| Aug 8, 2006 @ 3:39 PM |
Alcoholics |
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jeanc200358
Posts: 934
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To me, alcoholism is no more of a social stigma than is eating to excess or engaging in any other unhealthy behavior.
IMO, it's rare that you'll find a person who is completely psychologically "intact." There's usually some kind of "demon" or "inner struggle" going on, to one degree or another.
I drank for 30 years and "quit" briefly a few times in those years, but I knew deep down it was only temporary. You have to truly WANT to quit before you can successfully do so, especially if you have a propensity for drinking a lot and you like it a lot.
With me, a lot of it had to do with the fact that because of perimenopausal symptoms and other factors, it got to where I developed a very low tolerance to alcohol (as opposed to having a very high tolerance previously) and it was making me feel worse, while drinking, than I felt when I was hungover.
I said, to myself, "Self, this is just STOOPID. You really should quit." So that's what I did.
The smoking part was easy, since i never smoked unless i was drinking anyway. But boy did I ever smoke when I was drinking! Chain smoker to the max.
I must say, though, I feel TONS better now than I did almost four years ago...well, except for the $#%$#%$# perimenopausal symptoms. DAMN! Is there ever a time in a woman's life she feels completely healthy? LOL.
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