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a fool with a gun....


Mar 20, 2012 @ 5:39 PM a fool with a gun....    
Gallows_Humor


Posts: 16,897
SANFORD, Fla. — An unarmed black teenager shot to death by a neighborhood watch captain told his girlfriend he was being followed shortly before the confrontation that killed him, a lawyer said Tuesday as federal and state prosecutors announced they would investigate.

"'Oh he's right behind me, he's right behind me again,'" 17-year-old Trayvon Martin told his girlfriend on the phone, the Martin family's attorney said.

The girl later heard Martin say, "Why are you following me?" Another man asked, "What are you doing around here?'" attorney Benjamin Crump said.

The phone call that recorded Martin's final moments was disclosed as the U.S. Justice Department opened a federal civil rights probe into the Feb. 26 shooting and the local prosecutor convened a grand jury to investigate.

The neighborhood watch captain, George Zimmerman, has not been charged and has said he shot Martin, who was returning to a gated community in Sanford after buying candy at a convenience store, in self-defense after Martin attacked him. Police say Zimmerman is white; his family says he is Hispanic..

Police say Zimmerman was bleeding from his nose and the back of his head, and told police he had yelled out for help before he shot Martin.

Crump told reporters Tuesday it was Martin who cried out when a man bearing a 9mm handgun came at him.

Martin called his 16-year-old girlfriend in Miami several times on Feb. 26, including just before the shooting, Crump said. The discovery of the lengthy conversations, including one moments before the shooting, was made over the weekend by Martin's father by checking his son's cell phone log, Crump said.

"She absolutely blows Zimmerman's absurd self-defense claim out of the water," Crump said of Martin's girlfriend, whose name was withheld.

Martin told the girl on his way back from the store he'd taken shelter the rain briefly at an apartment building in the gated community where his father lives, Crump said. Martin then told the girl he was being followed and would try to lose the person, Crump said.

"She says: 'Run.' He says, 'I'm not going to run, I'm just going to walk fast,'" Crump says, quoting the girl.

After Martin encountered Zimmerman, the girl thinks she heard a scuffle "because his voice changes like something interrupted his speech," Crump said. The phone call ended before the girl heard gunshots.

The last call was at 7:12 p.m. Police arrived at 7:17 p.m. to find Martin lying face down on the ground.

Zimmerman was handcuffed after police arrived and taken into custody for questioning, but was released by police without being charged. Crump called the treatment patently unfair and asked if Martin would have received the same treatment if he had been the shooter.

"We will not rest until he is arrested. The more time that passes, this is going to be swept under the rug," Crump said.

Crump said he plans to turn over information about the call to federal investigators; a grand jury in Seminole County is also likely to subpoena the records. The Florida Department of Law Enforcement is also involved in the state case.

Former federal prosecutors said there are limitations to a Justice Department civil rights probe, which typically would involve a sworn law enforcement officer accused of abusing his authority. In this case, they said, it's not clear whether Zimmerman had any actual law enforcement authority or if the Sanford Police Department did anything improper.

"I think the community has the feeling that there's some type of cover-up," said Jeffrey Sloman, former U.S. attorney in Miami. "At least the department's involvement makes sure it gets some review. He wasn't a police officer. I'm sure that this is going to be a tough case to prosecute."

Authorities may be hamstrung by a state "Stand Your Ground" law that allows people to defend themselves with deadly force and does not require a retreat in the face of danger. Asked Tuesday if that law needs change, Republican Gov. Rick Scott said "it's always positive to go back and think about existing laws."

The Justice Department's Civil Rights Division said it is sending its community relations service this week to Sanford to "address tension in the community."

Seminole County State Attorney Norm Wolfinger said a grand jury will meet April 10 to consider evidence in the case.

An online petition urging local authorities to prosecute Zimmerman has drawn more than 500,000 signatures at website Change.org. About 50 defense attorneys and protesters filled the lobby in the governor's office Tuesday to deliver a letter seeking an independent investigation and a task force to study racial profiling. They applauded when Scott came out of his office to talk to them.
.....

so.. who is going to protect the innocent from the self proclaimed protectors...

just think if this hero had used a cell phone rather than a gun...
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Mar 20, 2012 @ 5:43 PM a fool with a gun....    
violette1967


Posts: 1,960
????? I am seeing triple

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Mar 20, 2012 @ 5:47 PM a fool with a gun....    
Gallows_Humor


Posts: 16,897
yes.. you are.. as the three amigos are trying a thread hijack.... and did not notice that the big moderator is watching...

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Mar 20, 2012 @ 5:53 PM a fool with a gun....    
beckyiv42000


Posts: 16,868
Another thread with the SAME COPY PASTE?? wow GH just WOW..


btw the mod can see you flooding the forums too ..
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Mar 20, 2012 @ 5:55 PM a fool with a gun....    
Gallows_Humor


Posts: 16,897
.. but he knows why I am doing it... just as he knows why you are doing what you are doing...

the big question that I don't know.. is he as amused by it all as I am... or is he getting pissed off that you all are breaking the forum rules...

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Mar 20, 2012 @ 6:04 PM a fool with a gun....    
Suthn_Man


Posts: 11,239

I suspect your perception is a little off-track there.
You are well known for a very long time, Gallows.
As are your chaotic motives in these forums.
You are not fooling anybody, least of all management.


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Mar 20, 2012 @ 6:08 PM a fool with a gun....    
Dillweed


Posts: 3,753
Yep, the mod watches as you troll other threads GH. Do you think he/she/they are blind?
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Mar 20, 2012 @ 6:08 PM a fool with a gun....    
beckyiv42000


Posts: 16,868
sooo its OKAY you are breaking the rules?? because why??

Hopefully the MOD can also see that a bunch of us are just plain tired of you hijacking threads you dont like the topics of ..or well its actually because you dont like the OP you do it just to irritate .. ...that is plain to see..

I also hope the mod sees that you crossed a line with your comment about my kids GH..
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Mar 20, 2012 @ 6:13 PM a fool with a gun....    
Dillweed


Posts: 3,753
GH has a li'l tinfoil troll hat he wears that's impervious to rational thought, reason, or his own despicable actions and is labeled "VICTIM".
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Mar 21, 2012 @ 2:40 PM a fool with a gun....    
Gallows_Humor


Posts: 16,897
ok.. for whatever reason.. the mod decided that this was the thread that stays... maybe because it was the last thread created?? ... ....

so.. this site. goes into more detail about what went down... in what seems to be the most fair way...

http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/03/what-happened-trayvon-martin-explained

it is pretty much a given that the PD is waiting for the grand jury to tell them what to do... my problem is that will take about a month and there seems to be enough evidence to arrest him now... as the self defense aspect has been pretty much negated... so... he will be arrested eventually.. unless anyone can prove that the boy killed was indeed the one at fault...

so... why are they waiting??

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Mar 21, 2012 @ 3:50 PM a fool with a gun....    
Angel54214


Posts: 22,479
so... why are they waiting??

Because the Grand Jury's calendar has the after investigation hearing set for April 10th.

Both the Department of Justice and the FBI are doing their investigations.
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Mar 21, 2012 @ 3:55 PM a fool with a gun....    
Gallows_Humor


Posts: 16,897
let me rephrase...


why is the suspect walking around..and not behind bars at this time??

..
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Mar 21, 2012 @ 11:13 PM a fool with a gun....    
Paralegal_at_Law


Posts: 8,408
a fool with a gun....

Perhaps. . . .but then again, perhaps not!

All of the public outcry is based upon news reports and knowing how innaccurate the national news media is, and how many material facts they omit, I trust very little of what I hear from NBC, ABC, and CBS.

So, until the facts are gathered and revealed in a judicial procedure, I am sitting back, waiting and watching, until real facts and real testimony is had.

In the meanwhile, last I heard no arrest has been made. That is a significant factor also. But, there very well may be an arrest in future.

I believe the state law there is a "stand your ground state" which complicates a prosecution, since crime victims have a right to defend themselves. We don't know if the guy in the hoodie whirled on the crime watch Captain to menance him in some manner, or not. At law. the critical thing then is what was the belief in the mind of the shooter at the time the trigger was squeezed?

Did the guy who was shot put his hand into the pouch of the hoodie to pretend he had a gun when he spoke to the shooter? If so, that is a big factor because a belief that the guy who ws shot had a gun would support a self-defense claim, since the shoot-don't shoot decision when your life is in actual jeopardy, or when someone believes that their life is in jeopardy, is determinative on whether the shooting was a criminal act, or is justified.

Right now, we have lots of news media propaganda stirring up emotions but very little facts for us to determine whether or not a crime was committed, and if so, was it manslaughter, a hot blooded murder, or a cold blooded murder? Was it a hate crime? Was it justifiable homicide? Most of the reporting I see is very little different from the shrill Nancy Grace who has disgraced herself nationally, with her highly prejudicial presentations that leap to conclusions and scream "off with his head," notwithstanding that defendants are guarnteed trial by jury, not trial by news media propaganda mills.

Why didn't the victim call 911 instead of a girlfriend? He had the time to call the police but apparently squandered that time on a girlfriend call.

Did the guy who was shot have a police record? What was he doing in that neighborhood? We know he entered an empty house, which if seen, is reasonable suspician, if not probable cause on the part of the Crime Watch Captain to detain a suspect for misdemeanor breaking and entering or felony burglary, depending on the intentions of the intruder and also the subsequen acts of the party after he entred the building. The fact that the intruder entered a dwelling that was not his own, impeaches his status as being an innocent.

The Crime Watch Captain is not a sworn police officer, but like you, me, the little old lady from Pasadena, all of us possess the power to make a citizen's arrest. In any event, a suspicious person can be detained until police arrived when they are summoned.

There is some talk that the Crime Watch Captain was "self appointed." That is immaterial, or perhaps just news media spin, since all crime watch unts are staffed by volunteers, each of whom is this "self appointed" so that phrase means absolutely nothing and when used, is prejudicial and immaterial to the case at bar. For instance, if a police officer arrests a suspect, it is immaterial if the police officer is a volunteer on the sheriff's posse, or is a full-time paid policemen, as both the reserve officer and also the regular officer are both fully empowered to exercise police powers.

This is a sensational case, and before the trial there is always a lot of public hysteria, whipped up by the sensationalist news media. Let calmer heads prevail until the investigtion is completed, an indictment is handed down, an arrest is made, and a trial had.

If we among the general public DO NOT remail "neutral" neither being emotionally swept into a Frankenstein Mop mentality to chant "CRUCIFY HIM, CRUCIFY HIM, CRUCIFY HIM, as was the case of Jesus before Pontius Pilate, then the truth is that defendant, and also each of YOU when it is YOUR TURN to be arrested, DO NOT ENJOY THE RIGHT TO THE PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE.

We have the best country in the world when it comes to the freedoms that Americans enjoy. We usually have fair trials, althogh trial error is a common mistake leading to new trials ordered by an appeals court.

Let the wheels of justice grind. Let justice prevail. If and when the defendant is charged, tried, and convicted, and sentenced, then I will have a greater understanding of the facts. If he is gulity of felony murder or premeditated murder, then you will see me advocate the death penalty, if the facts and the law warrant that extreme punishment. But as for now, I am remaining neutral, and you should too, if you are a fair person.

Which is why I make better a better juror than the Nancy Grace clones who are ready, able, and willing to lynch a defendant upon mere suspicion of wrongdoing.

The Premier Precision Thinker's Viewpoint
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Mar 22, 2012 @ 12:54 AM a fool with a gun....    
Angel54214


Posts: 22,479
why is the suspect walking around..and not behind bars at this time??

I'd say because there hasn't been a Warrant issued by the court for his arrest. Why, I don't know GH...

adding...

Seems currently there is a big scuffle over the Police Chief Bill Lee:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46815757/ns/local_news-orlando_fl/

And the City Manager's Statement:
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

[Edited on 3/22/2012 1:07 AM]
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Mar 22, 2012 @ 1:16 AM a fool with a gun....    
Angel54214


Posts: 22,479
I believe the state law there is a "stand your ground state" which complicates a prosecution, since crime victims have a right to defend themselves.

Well the victim's attorney can't speak in a court of law for his defense because the victim is dead. So the State has to defend him.

Did the guy who was shot have a police record? What was he doing in that neighborhood?
No, but the shooter does. The Boy was at his Father's fiance's home watching a game with the family.

And they can't release all information on the incident because it's currently under investigation by the DoD and the FBI.

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Mar 22, 2012 @ 11:31 AM a fool with a gun....    
Gallows_Humor


Posts: 16,897
I read the transcript..and heard the perps 911 call

if that was accurate.. he should be behind bars .....NOW....

remember para...
being arrested does not mean anyone is guilty..

and as this guy killed another human being..

(after being told by the 911 operator to stand down..and wait for the police.. which negates any claim of self defense.. or neighborhood watch defense...)

that he supposedly did not even know..

he has shown that he is a danger to society...

wow... from a link in Angel's link...

If Zimmerman was told not to continue to follow Trayvon, can that be considered in this
investigation?

Yes it will; however, the telecommunications call taker asked Zimmerman “are you following him”. Zimmerman replied, “yes”. The call taker stated “you don’t need to do that”. The call taker’s suggestion is not a lawful order that Mr. Zimmerman would be required to follow. Zimmerman’s statement was that he had lost sight of Trayvon and was returning to his truck to meet the police officer when he says he was attacked by Trayvon.

Why was George Zimmerman labeled as “squeaky clean” when in fact he has a prior
arrest history?

In one of the initial meetings with the father of the victim the investigator related to him the account that Mr. Zimmerman provided of the incident. At that time the investigator said that Mr.Zimmerman portrayed himself to be “squeaky clean”. We are aware of the background information regarding both individuals involved in this event. We believe Mr. Martin may have misconstrued this information.

bad spin.... and weak excuses for the PD NOT doing their job....

base on this garbage..
after beig told not to ..by anyone who knows better ..I can go into a biker bar.. yell out that bikers are _____ and then shoot the first one who gets in my face.. then tell the cop it was self defense and I was just trying to leave..

the point that that this guy is leaving out is..

why did the perp follow this boy after he called LE ?

and the 911 tapes show where this perp used all the right buzz words...
to justify shooting him...

self defense....it was not....

[Edited on 3/22/2012 11:47 AM]
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Mar 22, 2012 @ 6:30 PM a fool with a gun....    
Paralegal_at_Law


Posts: 8,408
self defense....it was not....

The decedent was observed by the Crime Watch Captain breaking and entering an empty home. We do not know yet if the decedent turned with his hand in the front pocket of his gray hoodie as if he had a gun to threaten the Crime Watch Captain with.

Flordia is a "stand your ground state" which authorizes the use of deadly force to repel a felony attack, such as an assault with a deadly weapon.

It does not make any difference if the dead boy actually had a gun or not, as the determinative factor is whether or not the shooter believed that he was being assaulted with a dangerous and deadly weapon at the time of the shooting.

We all need a lot more fact finding to occur before we each decide what position to take, lest we join into a lynch mob mentality, such as that usually espoused by Nancy Grace.

The Crime Watch Captain is entitled to the presumption of innocence until the facts are known.

It is also of interest to discover if the dead teen had a police record or not?

If after trial the shooter is convicted of first degree murder, then I will advocate the use of the death penalty; but until more facts are known, the truth is that the accused enjoys the right to the presumption of innocence, unless YOU are tainted by a prejudical jumping to a conclusion.

If you don't afford this shooter his civil rights, then YOU don't deserve your civil rights when you are wrongfully arrested and prosecuted for a heinous crime for which the lynch mob is all chanting, "Crucify Him."
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Mar 22, 2012 @ 6:37 PM a fool with a gun....    
BandTMom


Posts: 38,549
Would you care to back up your claim of

The decedent was observed by the Crime Watch Captain breaking and entering an empty home.

I've been following this story and I've yet to read that the boy was doing anything wrong.

I'll never look at Skiddles the same way again.

The "law" of the town in question has a very shady history.

Chief Lee's predecessor, Brian Tooley, was forced from office last year amid a scandal involving a lieutenant's son who was captured on video attacking a homeless black man. As the homeless man lay bleeding on the ground, police officers reportedly drove his attacker from the scene. The lieutenant's son, Justin Collison, 21, was not arrested at the time. A month later he turned himself in after video surfaced on Youtube.

For years the local NAACP and others have claimed that the police protected their own and routinely harassed and embarrassed blacks. And in the last few years, some Sanford officers have displayed questionable behavior: a couple have been arrested for taking bribes and kickbacks, and one was fired last summer for falsely accusing a suspect of attempted murder. In one case, the NAACP said that an officer had refused to investigate the rape of a black woman until the organization put pressure on the department.

Source
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Mar 22, 2012 @ 6:41 PM a fool with a gun....    
Gallows_Humor


Posts: 16,897
Para...please provide links..as.. this is the first I have heard the the victim was breaking into anything...

and.. as of today.. they are all saying that there was no police record... for the victim..

but the shooter ...has a charge that was dropped... that is rather suspect...

and..


the vigilante had no business accosting the teen..which.. it in itself is a crime...

...as he was well beyond the scope of any neighborhood watch persons duties...

really para.. if you were only walking home from the store..and then were verbally and physically threatened by a man who had no reason to confront you at all...

and you then defended yourself..

..and he then shot and killed you... why would anyone say that it was a justifiable killing.. based on self defense?

why would any officer let this man go free...?

.
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Mar 22, 2012 @ 9:02 PM a fool with a gun....    
LittleMsDangerous


Posts: 8,296
The decedent was observed by the Crime Watch Captain breaking and entering an empty home.

Please do provide a cite to wherever this has been stated. I've read numerous articles and listened to the 911 calls, none of which even remotely mention anything that could be construed as such. Zimmerman, at most, said the CHILD looked "suspicious". He also said there had been several instances of crimes in the neighborhood, but did not link those specifically to the CHILD.

We do not know yet if the decedent turned with his hand in the front pocket of his gray hoodie as if he had a gun to threaten the Crime Watch Captain with.

Zimmerman obviously determined the CHILD he shot to be "guilty" of SOMEthing, merely because he looked "suspicious" and thus deserved to be shot DEAD without considering the CHILD'S "civil rights" and without benefit of a trial. Nevertheless, had Zimmerman stayed in his vehicle as the 911 operator advised him to do, the CHILD would still be alive.
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