| Jan 8, 2007 @ 9:37 PM |
Is Religiosity Inversely Correlated With Intelligence?
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Martin666
Posts: 2,195
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In other words, does a persons tendency to be religious decrease as intelligence increases, using IQ as a measure. Or another way of putting it: Does a persons tendency to be religious increase as intelligence decreases, as measured by IQ?
I was talking with some people on another site about this. Personally, I'm not making any claims one way or the other. Strangely enough, though, there does seem to be a fair consensus among studies.
A starting point might be the Wikipedia entry for "Religiosity and Intelligence."
Has anyone read anything about this?
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| Jan 8, 2007 @ 11:01 PM |
Is Religiosity Inversely Correlated With Intelligence? |
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DawolfLover
Posts: 568
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First off, I'd like to give you this reward Martin. For posting a topic with the most big words in it since MD opened.   I know this'll sound strange but you won't get as many responses as you might have if you'd named it "Religion=Dumber?". Although the two titles are still referring to the same topic, the one would put people on the defensive and they'd come in just to see what you meant. Whereas with the original topic sentence, people might shy away just because it seems vastly intellectual. But Kudos all the same, it's a great idea for a topic. Now on with the show.
I think the studies might not be taking into account the age of this variance in IQ and religious knowledge gain. The reason I mention that is because I think as you face problems in life, you choose two different paths. One, you choose to find a way to explain things with science and cold hard fact. This course would lead someone to read more straight fact type books as opposed to books based on philosophy(which also contain facts but they have belief driven information as well, which may or may not appeal to someone that is more "science" driven.).
The second path is looking for guidance and hope through faith. Where they start to delve deeper into who they are and why they're here, instead of working through text books and "science" type information.
In the end, IQ tests are based more on general knowledge and science based information rather than spiritual and philosophical information. That might be why IQ's of less religious people tend to be higher.
This is all just my opinion without having read anything on the subject. When i've got time i'll take a peek at the Wiki reference you mentioned.
[Edited on 1/8/2007 11:32 PM]
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| Jan 8, 2007 @ 11:23 PM |
Is Religiosity Inversely Correlated With Intelligence?
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Martin666
Posts: 2,195
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Hi Da,
LOL--I haven't even finished reading your response yet, but have to comment on the opening lines. It would be nice to just have a conversation with people and see what they've heard about this. My guess was that using an opening line like you suggested would have just INFLAMED many readers and then---whoops!--out the window goes the reasonable conversation.
I've never heard of this supposed connection between religiosity and intelligence, and was just wondering if other people had.
Now I'll finish reading your post...
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| Jan 8, 2007 @ 11:34 PM |
Is Religiosity Inversely Correlated With Intelligence? |
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DawolfLover
Posts: 568
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Hehe, it's ok Martin, I assumed it was something to that effect. That you'd rather have a discussion on the subject rather than a firing squad.
Note: I edited the previous post to change "lower" to "higher", an error on my part.
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| Jan 9, 2007 @ 12:59 AM |
Is Religiosity Inversely Correlated With Intelligence?
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redtigr
Posts: 664
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Okay, I'll bite.
I tried to read some of the Wik articles, but I am easily bored by statistics and percentages. Like Dawolf, I assumed you were looking for a particular sort of exchange and I opted to watch without participation, if it was going to go into the "here's this study and there's that reference" predominately. (I'm getting on - and I don't have enough years left to read everything... that is, if I don't "enjoy" the read)
But this reminds me of discussions I had waaaaayyy back in the early 70's with a group of "quite intellectual (just ask them) friends). We talked about our various heros of science and philosophy and noted that with few exceptions, these were people who were either non-religious, proclaimed athiests, or agnostics. There was always that glaring exception: Einstein, who remained a man of faith in God - and that gave us fodder for argument and discussion of this very nature.
What is interesting to me, is that I have always associated intelligence with a thirst for knowledge - a need to consider all the possibilites before accepting the premise. I associate the study and exploration of various religions with education and being open to differing points of view. I associate education with intelligence as one can be intelligent without education but one cannot be educated without intelligence (at least a modicum of intelligence). One association leads to the next.
I came to associate religiosity (of the sort in which I was raised - literal Bible interpretation) with closed minds and simple principles of thought. I cannot seem to help from making certain assumptions when I meet people who are devout Baptists or whatever religion. I tend to believe I won't have much in common with them. Eventually there will be that discussion regarding religion and God in which they'll not be able or willing to engage beyond stating their fixed position.
I can't control it. It's happened so often that it is the exception when I am proven wrong. Those who don't have the capacity to question religion usually don't seem to have the intellectual capacity or interest in other aspects of life as a learning experience either.
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| Jan 9, 2007 @ 3:33 AM |
Is Religiosity Inversely Correlated With Intelligence? |
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Eyes_Wide_Shut
Posts: 421
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It seems to me that it is difficult to answer this question because there are so many unknown... parts. For example, is Buddhism a religion? If religiosity is practice, belief and dedication of/to a doctrine, it seems to me that Buddhism would then count. er..be counted. So would paganism. So would many other non-traditional/non-western belief system now embraced by the 'almost-mainstream' population.
And yet, when I read the studies that are done, the defining question seems to be 'belief in God.'
I think perhaps the paradigm is different than that presumed by the questioners, and that the answers are not to be found so simply.
....ok, I'll go away now.... ... .....
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| Jan 9, 2007 @ 8:05 AM |
Is Religiosity Inversely Correlated With Intelligence?
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Martin666
Posts: 2,195
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Wolf wrote:
"I think the studies might not be taking into account the age of this variance in IQ and religious knowledge gain. The reason I mention that is because I think as you face problems in life, you choose two different paths. One, you choose to find a way to explain things with science and cold hard fact. This course would lead someone to read more straight fact type books as opposed to books based on philosophy(which also contain facts but they have belief driven information as well, which may or may not appeal to someone that is more "science" driven.)"
I think that what the topic implies is that both paths may not be open to all people, depending on intelligence. For example, a person with a measured high intelligence may have the ability to chose the path of science, which is an intellectually more demanding path than the path of fundementalist faith. But a person of lower measured intelligence may not have the ability to chose the more rigourous science path exactly because of their lower measured intelligence.
I'm not saying that I agree with this, only that that seems to be what is implied in the question.
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| Jan 9, 2007 @ 8:36 AM |
Is Religiosity Inversely Correlated With Intelligence? |
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Martin666
Posts: 2,195
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Hi Eyes--
You're right--the studies talked about in the wiki article seem to define "religiosity" as belief in a personal god and the power of prayer. Religiosity may also be defined more broadly. The wiki article on "Religiosity" talks about some of those other dimensions.
The "answer" may be more difficult to track down than the question implies, but the question itself is certainly pushing me into unconsidered areas.
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| Jan 9, 2007 @ 8:43 AM |
Is Religiosity Inversely Correlated With Intelligence?
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Heaveninawildflower
Posts: 18,615
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Redtigr said:
There was always that glaring exception: Einstein, who remained a man of faith in God - and that gave us fodder for argument and discussion of this very nature.
I think you have to differentiate here between religiosity and faith, and what you mean by faith in God. Einstein had his own belief in God as a creator, but his religion was science, or more accurately, in searching for truth rather than accepting revealed truth. The quote below is just one of many where he discusses this.
I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation. I cannot do this in spite of the fact that mechanistic causality has, to a certain extent, been placed in doubt by modern science. [He was speaking of Quantum Mechanics and the breaking down of determinism.] My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality is of the highest importance -- but for us, not for God. [Albert Einstein, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press, p.66]
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| Jan 9, 2007 @ 9:12 AM |
Is Religiosity Inversely Correlated With Intelligence? |
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redtigr
Posts: 664
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Heaven -
Well, Those old discussions were back in the 70's - (smile) - and We were all very young and sophomoric. Perhaps even a little high...
Thank you for the clarification; I had truly believed Einstein was a more traditionally religious person. You've piqued my interest in this again, Heaven, Martin, Eyes, all.
Eyes -
Yes, the question can take one in many directions of discussion. I, too, was wondering about Buddhism, and whether it fit into religiosity.
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| Jan 9, 2007 @ 9:43 AM |
Is Religiosity Inversely Correlated With Intelligence?
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Martin666
Posts: 2,195
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Hi Red, Heaven--
Einstein was not a "man of God" as popular myth says. As might be expected from a man so far above us in so many ways, his views were complex. The best place to go to see what he actually thought is to his autobiographical notes:
http://skeptically.org/thinkersonreligion/id8.html
Red, buddhism does keep coming up, and it's a difficult thing to fit into a niche.Einstein also had thoughts on it when he wrote: "Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be expected in the cosmic religion for the future: It trancends a personal God, avoids dogma and theology; it covers both the natural and the spiritual, and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity."
And again: "The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. The religion which is based on experience, which refuses dogmatism. If there's any religion that would cope the scientific needs it will be Buddhism?"
And no, I don't think that this means that Einstein was a buddhist. His thoughts about the way things are just happened to intersect buddhist thought.
[Edited on 1/9/2007 9:45 AM]
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| Jan 9, 2007 @ 9:45 AM |
Is Religiosity Inversely Correlated With Intelligence? |
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Heaveninawildflower
Posts: 18,615
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Well, Those old discussions were back in the 70's - (smile) - and We were all very young and sophomoric. Perhaps even a little high...
Yes, those WERE the days! (Amazing how certain we were then, and how much we've 'unlearned' since)
I've actually wondered about this since I was a fairly young child...I went to public school, my best friend went to Catholic school. We'd compare homework assignments, and hers were more memorization while mine were geared more towards problem solving. I always wondered if she and her classmates weren't being taught not to think...I guess I still wonder.
So if religiosity is indeed inversely correlated with intelligence, is that necessarily cause or might it be effect to some degree?
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| Jan 9, 2007 @ 9:46 AM |
Is Religiosity Inversely Correlated With Intelligence?
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Martin666
Posts: 2,195
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Hi Heaven--
"So if religiosity is indeed inversely correlated with intelligence, is that necessarily cause or might it be effect to some degree?"
Correlation doesn't necessarily imply causation, right?
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| Jan 9, 2007 @ 10:07 AM |
Is Religiosity Inversely Correlated With Intelligence? |
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Heaveninawildflower
Posts: 18,615
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Correlation doesn't necessarily imply causation, right?
Nope. My question derives from the very limited observation of a child...if there is indeed a correlation (still unproven). The below statement was offered as a possible reason for such a correlation and I'm questioning whether there might not be another possible reason, in that those who are trained from childhood to accept an existing body of knowledge (i.e. memorization, as my friend was trained) will not do as well on an IQ test that's geared towards problem solving as someone who's encouraged to solve problems rather than memorize formulaic solutions.
For example, a person with a measured high intelligence may have the ability to choose the path of science, which is an intellectually more demanding path than the path of fundementalist faith. But a person of lower measured intelligence may not have the ability to chose the more rigorous science path exactly because of their lower measured intelligence.
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| Jan 9, 2007 @ 10:23 AM |
Is Religiosity Inversely Correlated With Intelligence?
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Martin666
Posts: 2,195
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Heaven-you're probably right.
After doing more reading, I kind of wish I hadn't used "IQ" in the opening post. Measures of IQ do appear in the studies, but more often it appears to be measures of standardized tests (SAT's, MCATS, etc etc), grade level achieved, and degrees granted (including the area the degree falls in) that is being measured. That the inverse correlation appears to exist across a range of such measurements may be important.
But my guess is that those things are pretty closely connected to IQ.
And it seems safe to say that there is a correlation, just an inverse one, and not necessarily causal.
What's really fascinating is what happens when you move further out on either the left or right tail of a standard IQ distribution graph: the inverse relationship tends to become even stronger. Once you get about two standard deviations either side of 100, it's pretty overwhelming. But I guess that would be expected. They must find equilibrium somewhere around 100? I don't know...
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| Jan 9, 2007 @ 10:53 AM |
Is Religiosity Inversely Correlated With Intelligence? |
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Martin666
Posts: 2,195
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Ah---so now it turns out that, apparently, the inverse relationship doesn't hold for at least three religious groups: Mormans; westerners who practice Buddhism, and some sects of ultra-orthadox jews. In other words, higher levels of religiosity in these faiths are associated with higher IQ/intelligence measurements/performance on standardized tests.
Alright---I'm completely confused. So now part of the question becomes what is it about those particular systems that, apparently, make them stand outside the inverse relationship between mainstream christianity and intelligence?
Or maybe that's it: does the inverse relationship exist for christianity, but not other religions? Is it something specific to christinaity?
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| Jan 9, 2007 @ 11:16 AM |
Is Religiosity Inversely Correlated With Intelligence?
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DoorWatcher
Posts: 6,259
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Would it be that there are less of these two groups (Mormons and Jews) scattered across the US, and that those two groups are more likely to be clustered together, thus having a higher influence on their population? In other words, with a smaller, denser population of say, Mormons in Utah, wouldn't this religious influence reach across the population more effectively than say Christianity across the entire South? Or say Jews, who live in concentrated neighborhoods in New York City? Am I making any sense to anyone?? 
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| Jan 9, 2007 @ 11:22 AM |
Is Religiosity Inversely Correlated With Intelligence? |
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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In the days of old when I in those big lecture halls of an ancient Scottish University, i'd glare around the benches at the people about me.
Some the creme of intelligence yet I'd see some reading the worst common newspapers and believing every word in them. Those with a bible amongst their notes and those with all the latest micro gadgetry and plain old me as old fashioned as could possibly be... A bit of paper and a fountain pen with a fine point. (Just to get as many equations down in the smallest area with the bit of paper I had).
There are dumb people, there are good people, there are wise people and there are stupid people..... and then again there is the world about them ready to pounce with every means possible with persuasions.
I was one of two people at a university of near 4,500 students studying Theoretical Physics and the main proportions were budding doctors and theologians.... of course being an ancient university that still preaches the old stuff and still in the old style! :) As one professor said to me, "we cant change, we have been doing it for over 500 years!
I find it scary that such intelligent people can have such ridiculous views on religion and the world about them.... "something is missing from their equation"... 
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| Jan 9, 2007 @ 11:26 AM |
Is Religiosity Inversely Correlated With Intelligence?
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Loreli
Posts: 25,408
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I agree with Dawolf in this issue: The reason I mention that is because I think as you face problems in life, you choose two different paths.
I have known people in my life that were not "religious", but because of illness/near loss of their newborn, turned to God. One is very smart, as well as street wise. The other (as much as I love her) is not so bright.
So I don't think it's intelligence as much as desire to better one's self, return the gift (of their child surviving) by becoming very active in their church.
I have also seen people turn to religion because of pressure of spouse, family or community in some cases. JMVHO 
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| Jan 9, 2007 @ 1:22 PM |
Is Religiosity Inversely Correlated With Intelligence? |
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kattsmeow
Posts: 22,628
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In other words, does a persons tendency to be religious decrease as intelligence increases, using IQ as a measure. Or another way of putting it: Does a persons tendency to be religious increase as intelligence decreases, as measured by IQ?
I beg to differ on this.
I am going to use my husband as an example here.
By the age of 12, he had alomost read every book in the L.A. library. His mother finally took him to have his IQ tested because the school he was going to demanded it.
It was at or in the top ten percent.
Now, he really has a vast knowledge that I haven't even begun to try to tap into.
What was next after he went to college? The Bible. The most studied book ever.
Oh, ya, he was born and raised Catholic, went to college, turned to Buddism, and other beliefs. Went to law school, then decided to try a Baptist church. ( he might consider himself a Baptist,,,I don't though.)
He had a thirst for knowledge at a young age, went through his early life learning all he could, ( lots of languages too, can read Hebrew, Greek, Spanish and who knows what else.)
He is now a man that believes that God created everything, that his son Jesus was born of a virgin, lived, and died on the cross, and rose 3 days later bodily.
IQ has nothing to do with it except being able to comprehend what you are reading, and wanting to lear.
Of course, my opinion only. 
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