| Feb 1, 2007 @ 6:51 PM |
Evolution vs Creationism?
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Thanglhrly
Posts: 1,720
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What are your thoughts pertaining to, "The Theory of Evolution" vs. "Creationism"?
Let me start this off by posing the question.............."Is carbon dating accurate?" 
[Edited on 2/1/2007 7:30 PM]
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| Feb 1, 2007 @ 7:53 PM |
Evolution vs Creationism? |
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SunBabe
Posts: 12,279
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Thang, there are dozens and dozens of scientific tests that are far more accurate (or appropriate) than carbon dating these days. Carbon dating can still give a pretty close range, but the material being tested has to be carbon based (ie organic) and hopefuly uncontaminated (which is why many samples from an area are used). All those isotope half-life tests (or whatever they're called -- I can't remember the details and don't want to look it up right now) are able to track inorganic history and a whole lot more now.
Here's a bunch of threads that may have the info -- and some peoples ideas and thoughts -- in them  :
http://www.matchdoctor.com/thread_87_9302_1/Creationism_in_the_Science_Classroom.html
http://www.matchdoctor.com/thread_87_15139_1/Intelligent_Design.html
http://www.matchdoctor.com/thread_6_3809_1/Does_anyone_believe_in_both_creation_AND_evolution.html
http://www.matchdoctor.com/thread_87_7850_1/Why_religion_really_disses_evolution.html
http://www.matchdoctor.com/thread_87_3805_1/Why_religion_really_disses_evolution.html
http://www.matchdoctor.com/thread_87_10400_1/Evolution.html
And this Shoud of Turin thread may have some links explaining dating processes...I know there was an awful lot of scientific test methods described in detail in the book that I'd read:
http://www.matchdoctor.com/thread_87_15649_1/The_Shroud_of_Turin_is_a_fake.html
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| Feb 1, 2007 @ 7:58 PM |
Evolution vs Creationism?
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jamminjerry
Posts: 4,085
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logic implies that Genesis validates both. on the 7th day God rested. on the 8th day "he" created Adam and Eve. check both Gen chapt 1 and Gen chapt 2
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| Feb 1, 2007 @ 8:12 PM |
Evolution vs Creationism? |
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Thanglhrly
Posts: 1,720
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Thank-you both for your response. In the past, I have read a great deal on both subjects. I was curious as to what other peoples' thoughts might be, and what information they had to share. I would like to thank-you, once again! 
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| Feb 1, 2007 @ 9:20 PM |
Evolution vs Creationism?
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Angel54214
Posts: 18,199
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Thanks Jammin! I will post them... 
Genesis 1:
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
On to Genesis 2... 
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| Feb 1, 2007 @ 9:23 PM |
Evolution vs Creationism? |
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Angel54214
Posts: 18,199
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Genesis 2:
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
[Edited on 2/1/2007 9:32 PM]
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| Feb 2, 2007 @ 12:15 AM |
Evolution vs Creationism?
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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If you are going to ask a question about science then a scientist should answer the question. There are no scientific answers about carbon dating in the bible.
A student asked a question about fossils Liberty University (founded by Jerry Falwell) is said to have that are about 3000 year old. The video is 4 1/2 minutes. Here is the answer he got. Listen carefully.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yx3XmlR7XKA&NR
No amounts of massive cutting and pasting will change the facts. There are no 3000 year old dinosaur fossils. Plain and simple unless you get some of your information from the Flintstones who had a pet dinosaur.
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| Feb 2, 2007 @ 12:40 AM |
Evolution vs Creationism? |
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kattsmeow
Posts: 22,628
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Hm, then maybe a scientist should come in and answer it huh?
Actually Sunbabe knows her stuff. Because she looks stuff up, and reads, and I think,, she had someone that taught her a few things about this subject.
Carbon dating also can't be done if there has been a smokey fire around an object.
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| Feb 2, 2007 @ 12:44 AM |
Evolution vs Creationism?
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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katt,
Was there something in that video you did not understand? He spoke about various dating methods. Was that confusing?
Do you believe that there really are 3000 year old dinosaur fossils?
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| Feb 2, 2007 @ 12:49 AM |
Evolution vs Creationism? |
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kattsmeow
Posts: 22,628
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Sorry, I didn't watch the video. I don't like Jerry Falwell, so I don't listen to him.
My post was not to you, it was just my thoughts.
I do know the Grand Canyon is older than 3,000 years though, ( I mean that the earth is older than most people think)  and what I said about the carbon dating could be wrong. ( I think I got that from the Shoud of Turin thread .)
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=RationalResponse
The Rational Response Squad is an activist network that seeks to help the world overcome irrationality. The biggest effort underway is that to help religious people overcome superstition and unreasonable beliefs
I see where you get most of your info.
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| Feb 2, 2007 @ 1:20 AM |
Evolution vs Creationism?
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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Of course you did not watch the video because it was a scientist from Oxford University who was speaking on the very subject of dating fossils. I am not surprised.
You didn't even properly read my post because I never said Jerry Falwell the speaker nor was he spoken about.  Again, I am not surprised.
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| Feb 2, 2007 @ 2:20 AM |
Evolution vs Creationism? |
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SunBabe
Posts: 12,279
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Katt, that was simply a lecture by the scientist, Richard Dawkins taped at Randolph-Macon Women's college in Lynchburg, Va. That section of his lecture dealt with "earth-age" and the process of radioactive testing on fossils, and how may tests MUST agree (referring to the fossiles at Fallwell's Liberty University -- dinosaur fossils that the university claims are only 3000 years old.
I love the way he presented the difference between the generally accepted "Bible earth-age" (+/- 6000 years old) and generally, on the other side, "Scientific earth-age" (billions of years old)
The DIFFERENCE/margin of error, to put it into an understandable perspective, would be to compare the distance between San Francisco and NY. It would be more like saying they were only 28 feet apart (compared to the 3000 miles that is scientifically accepted)...Dawkins had a mathmatition do the arithmetic.
Rational Response only collected some of these lectures and hosted them in one "library" section of U-tube. I have no clue if they paid him to lecture, but I rather doubt it.
...and one other critical thing that people need to understand, is the difference between BONES and fossils. Three-dimensional fossils WERE bones (and tissue) once upon a time, but through NATURE, their hollows were filled and their structures dissolved and were replaced by other minerals, a tiny drop of mineral laden water at a time, one crystal deposited at a time...not possible in 3000 years -- much closer to 65 thousand at the minimum (for dinosaur bones)
Oh, and here's a list of some of the other dating methods that are used instead of/in addition to C-14 dating -- they run the spectrum of just about every scientific specialty... chemists, physicists, biologists, geologists, etc etc etc:
Superposition
Stratigraphy
Dendrochronology
Radiocarbon C14
Radiometric Dating Methods
Obsidian Hydration Dating
Paleomagnetic/Archaeomagnetic
Luminescence Dating Methods
Amino Acid Racemization
Fission-track Dating
Ice Cores
Varves
Pollens
Corals
Cation Ratio
Fluorine Dating
Patination
Oxidizable Carbon Ratio
Electron Spin Resonance
Cosmic-ray Exposure Dating
The Rational Response Squad is an activist network that seeks to help the world overcome irrationality. The biggest effort underway is that to help religious people overcome superstition and unreasonable beliefs
Actually, I see no problem with overcoming "irrationality" (I'm all for it)...I'd much rather see people practice a "rational faith" rather than simply accept/practice everything based on "blind faith".
[Edited on 2/2/2007 2:28 AM]
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| Feb 2, 2007 @ 3:27 AM |
Evolution vs Creationism?
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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Sunbabe,
Why is Liberty University trying to prove they have 3000 year old dinosaur fossils? That would make The Flintstones more historically accurate than once thought. That pleases me because I always liked Dino and I didn't like it when Fred threw him out of the house. I still don't understand why they didn't live in caves.
Actually dinosaurs would work out well if they existed around 3000-5000 years ago because that would help explain how the pyramids were constructed. If you remember in The Flintstones, Fred operated a dinosaur crane to lift heavy rocks. So the bible would be instrumental in solving a great mystery of the Pyramids.
As for humans having a common ancestor, well, as you can see the Geico cavemen still exists. The kind of throws a monkey wrench in the whole thing. So that proves the bible is right.
By golly!! I think I'm starting to catch on. Praise the Lord! Hallelujah!!
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| Feb 2, 2007 @ 11:41 AM |
Evolution vs Creationism? |
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kattsmeow
Posts: 22,628
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Sorry, I saw something about Jerry Falwell, and I do not like the man and now, I will go watch it.
 People really think this wonderful planet is only 6,000 years old???
I am always shocked when this comes up. This college or University actually says this huh?
Why does it not surprise me when it is a University that is affileated(sp) with Jerry Falwell????
Really, I would think that someone could go there and take that display down!!!
[Edited on 2/2/2007 11:49 AM]
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| Feb 2, 2007 @ 1:33 PM |
Evolution vs Creationism?
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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Well isn't that what this whole discussion is about? What closer to the truth? The bible or science? And then if evolution is closer to the truth (based on indisputable evidence) then does someone say, well, God created evolution?
The whole ID, Creationism, Evolution debate still begs the question. No matter what, how far we go. The whole debate is REALLY about a Prime Mover.
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| Feb 2, 2007 @ 2:04 PM |
Evolution vs Creationism? |
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kattsmeow
Posts: 22,628
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Um, I don't think that it says in the Bible the year that God made this planet.
I might be wrong though.
I don't think there were humans ( as we know them) on the planet during the rein of the Dinosaurs either.
I find this site very useful in answering alot of my questions.
http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/index.shtml#young_earth_vs_old_earth
The Seventh “Day” Is Thousands of Years Long
Everyone agrees that it has been at least thousands of years since the time of creation, yet the Bible declares that God rested on the seventh day after His six days of creation (Gen. 2:2-3). According to the book of Hebrews, God is still in His Sabbath rest from creation (4:3-5); hence, the seventh day has been at least six thousand years long, even on the shortest of all the chronologies of humankind.
Source: Article - Dr. Ankerberg's Comments On Creation
The Third “Day” Is Longer Than Twenty-Four Hours
On the third “day,” God not only created vegetation, but it grew to maturity. The text says that on the third day “the land produced vegetation; plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds” (Gen. 1:12, emphasis added). To grow from seeds to maturity and produce more seeds is a process that takes much longer than a day, a week, or even a month for most plants. There is no indication in the text that its growth was anything but natural; it is its origin that was supernatural.
Source: Article - Dr. Ankerberg's Comments On Creation
The Sixth “Day” Is Longer Than Twenty-Four Hours
It would also appear that the sixth “day” of creation was considerably longer than a solar day. Consider everything that happened during this one “day.”
First, God created all the many hundreds (or thousands) of land animals (Gen. 1:24-25).
Second, God “formed” man of the dust of the earth (Gen. 2:7). This Hebrew word (yatsar) means “to mold” or “form,” which implies time. Yatsar is used specifically of the work of a potter (cf. Jer. 18:2f.).
Third, God said, “I will make a helper suitable for him” (Gen. 2:18, emphasis added). This indicates a time subsequent to the time of the announcement.
Fourth, Adam observed and named this whole multitude of animals (Gen. 2:19). As Robert Newman noted, “If every one of the approximately 15,000 living species of such animals (not to mention those now extinct) were brought to Adam to be named, it would have taken ten hours if he spent only two second on each.” This is hardly enough time for Adam to study each animal and determine an appropriate name for it. Assuming a minimum of only two minutes each, the process would have taken six hundred hours (or twenty-five days).
Fifth, Adam searched for a helpmate for himself, apparently among all the creatures God had made. “But for Adam no suitable helper was found” (implying a time of searching) (Gen. 2:20, emphasis added).
Sixth, God put Adam to sleep and operated on him, taking out one of his ribs and healing the flesh (Gen. 2:21). This too involved additional time.
Seventh, Eve was brought to Adam, who observed her, accepted her, and was joined to her (Gen. 2:22-25).
In conclusion, it seems highly unlikely that all of these events–especially the fourth one–were compressed within a twenty-four-hour period or, more precisely, within the approximately twelve hours of light each day afforded.
John Ankerberg
Minister
Producer
Evangelist
Philosopher
Apologist
Author
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| Feb 2, 2007 @ 2:46 PM |
Evolution vs Creationism?
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SunBabe
Posts: 12,279
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Katt, I first became aware of the seriousness of the belief of the earth being that age from some posts by a very dear (mutual) friend of ours, a retired teacher. I admit that at first I thought she was just joking, pulling my leg, so I "joked" back...then I realized she was absolutely serious (as were a number of others)  
According to some denominations that take the Bible absolutely literally, God apparently created the earth "as is", including features like the Grand Canyon and fossils, etc before (literally) creating man from a handful of sand. And the determination for the earth-age was done by counting backwards through the Old Testement...I even found a website that explained it. It gave a SPECIFIC date of the origin (making the proper adjustments to reflect our present day calendar) 
I've also found it rather coincidental that mankind's supposed "history" is also around the same age as the early Mesopotamian "permanent" writing/recording system, developed and initiated about 6000 years. (Nobody will EVER convince me that Adam and Eve were "built" as adults, already knowing how to read and write )
...and as far as timelines go, the earth is relatively young, even at billions of years. What about the rest of the Universe...or universes?
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| Feb 2, 2007 @ 2:52 PM |
Evolution vs Creationism? |
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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Universe...or universes?
Do you even dare bringing up M-theory? 
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| Feb 2, 2007 @ 2:54 PM |
Evolution vs Creationism?
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SunBabe
Posts: 12,279
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| Feb 2, 2007 @ 4:23 PM |
Evolution vs Creationism? |
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kattsmeow
Posts: 22,628
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Oh yes Sunbabe, I remember when you informed me of our "mutual" friend who believed the earth had only been here for 3000 years.
Where does that put the "Ice Age"? How the mountains and valley's were formed by erosion of this "Ice Age" and how Volcano's make land masses.
The earth is always evolving, making new land masses, nature taking away old land masses ( tusnami's) (sp).
I never have believed in a 24/7 theory of this planet coming to life, all the plants and animals, not to mention where were the Dinosaurs???  Old joke huh?
Adam and Eve, well not sure I can explain my thoughts on them clearly in print.
I do believe they were made as "Adults". As far as them knowing how to do anything, ( writing, reading,) They wouldn't have had to at that point.
I think they really would have came "alive" when they sinned and had to go out on their own and learn.
I believe it took thousands of years to even make this planet, to then get started on how to make it self suffient even.
One day, according to God, could have been a thousand years.
Our planet is definatly billions of years old.
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