| May 21, 2007 @ 10:48 AM |
Philosophical Daoism on Religion, Governments and Knowledge
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yashaenka
Posts: 10,289
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I present this as information, not as a religion, but it has interesting positions on Religion, Governments and Knowledge. Do not equate "non-action" with "non doing" as some do. Since action in Daoism is seen as "Going with the flow", by choosing the path of least resistance. It will be interesting what you can relate to from this on present day Religions!
Lao Tzu was credited with the founding of the Daoist Movement but did not claim to be the source of the what he put forth. Fu Hsi thousands of years earlier was the oldest source known for Daoist concepts.
Daoism - the road to natural harmony and absolute happiness
The short article, Occult Universe, presents the basic patterns of belief current in China from the third millennium BC. It introduces the Book of Changes , which was as influential in the development of Confucianism as it was in much Daoist doctrine. Yet whereas Confucius expanded this book's social implications, Daoism elaborated on its metaphysical claim - to understand the invariable laws controlling the process of change in the universe. Lao Zi, who founded the Daoist movement with his work, Dao De Jing (Power and Principle), writes, "to know the invariable is enlightenment."
Lao Zi's Ideas
Lao Zi believed that in order to understand Dao - the mystical, all-encompassing power governing the universe - each individual should, through contemplation, master the invariable laws that cause and enforce the processes of change. Realising this ambition is no easy matter however - first, the individual should prepare to receive enlightenment. This requires the observation of "non-action" and the un-learning of all superficial knowledge. Only after rediscovering his/her inner essence can an individual understand and unite with Dao .
1) Detecting the invariable
In the Dao De Jing , Lao Zi sets down the principles of the invariable laws that he has discovered. The most important of these is that "reversal is the movement of Dao ", as introduced above (see "The theory of Yin and Yang" in Occult Universe). Lao Zi writes that since change always moves "to fill the empty or empty the full", to achieve something you should therefore first admit its opposite, i.e. if you wish to be happy, you should first seek to be sad. Secondly, he asserts that change always moves in the direction of the least resistance towards what is simplest and easiest. Thirdly, and controversially, he claims that all forms of Progress create dissension and unhappiness rather than harmony and improvement. He is adamant that if an individual wishes to understand Dao, s/he must first un-learn the spurious knowledge of the supposedly advanced world. The path to understanding Dao begins with the discovery of one's inner essence through "non-action".
2) Practising Non-action
Non-action occurs when a person or thing acts in natural and spontaneous concordance with its inner principle or De ; it is the opposite of all that is arbitrary, learned and artificial. Lao Zi insists that people have lost their essence precisely because they have developed too many desires and too much knowledge. As a result they cannot observe how Dao , the universal invariable power, affects the De or universal principle in all things. Only by reducing their lives to the simplicity of the Dao , can people begin to understand these forces. Thus in the second verse Lao Zi writes, "The Man of Calling. dwells in effectiveness without action. He practices teaching without talking. All beings emerge and he does not refuse himself to them. He generates and yet possesses nothing. He is effective and keeps nothing."
3) Defining Dao
Although it is possible to communicate the purpose of understanding Dao , it is impossible to define Dao itself. This is because Lao Zi, like the Chinese Buddhists, believes that language cannot contain nor express the unearthly experience of Dao . As a result he, like the Chinese Buddhists, only ever describes it through allusions. To give some indication of Dao , we shall quote the famous, introductory verse of Lao Zi's Dao De Jing .
"The Dao that can be expressed is not the eternal Dao .
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
"Non-existence" I call the beginning of Heaven and Earth.
"Existence" I call the mother of individual beings.
Therefore does the direction towards non-existence lead to the sight of the miraculous essence,
the direction towards existence to the sight of spatial limitations.
Both are one in origin and different only in name.
In its unity it is called the secret.
The secret's still deeper secret is the gateway through which all miracles emerge."
4) Conflict with Confucianism
Whereas Confucius wanted to improve the morality of a progressive society, Lao Zi aimed to enlighten the individual through a regressive ideology. As a result their two philosophies came into conflict.
Since Lao Zi conceived of the Dao above all distinctions of good and evil, he concluded that the Confucian values of human-heartedness and righteousness denigrated these higher principles. Consequently he writes:
"When the Dao is lost, there is the De .
When the De is lost, there is the virtue of human-heartedness.
When human-heartedness is lost there is the virtue of righteousness.
When righteousness is lost, there are the ceremonials.
These are the degeneration of loyalty and good faith and the beginning of Disorder."
This
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| May 21, 2007 @ 10:52 AM |
Philosophical Daoism on Religion, Governments and Knowledge |
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yashaenka
Posts: 10,289
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part 2
This represents the philosophical conflict between Daoism and Confucianism. The two philosophers also disagreed on the role of government. Whereas Confucius supported a progressive Emperor, Lao Zi called on the Emperor to limit government and un-do the effects of civilisation.
It could be argued that Lao Zi's quasi-anarchistic approach might be appropriate for some individuals, but that it is not a profitable pursuit for society at large. However, a later philosopher, Chuang Zi, elaborated Lao Zi's concepts. By using esoteric paradoxes and elusive riddles, Chuang Zi displayed the logical contradictions at play in daily life and language, and thereby succeeded in justifying the possible role of Daoism for everyday society.
Chuang Zi's Ideas
Chuang Zi's most significant contribution was in the identification of relative and absolute happiness.
1) Relative happiness:
Chuang Zi argues for a happy world. He claims that happiness does not conform to any absolute uniformity, but that people are happy, according to their natures ( De ), to different extents. It is a natural law, he says, that people will find their own levels of happiness if they are left to freely express their natural ability. Therefore, to create a society of relative happiness uniformity should be abolished in political and social philosophy. When people are allowed to fully express their natural ability, Chuang Zi claims, there is no need for government, since it is a law of nature that people will be able to find their own levels of relative happiness. Government's role, therefore, should be limited to allowing people to fully express their natural ability.
2) Absolute happiness:
This was reserved for those select individuals, who by transcending the ordinary distinction of things, could melt into life's infinitely changing process. Such a person does not analyse and discriminate between issues. When confronted by opposites this sage sees dynamic partners (Yin and Yang) in a process of ever-fluctuating change. He or she therefore combines contradictions into a unified whole. The sage loses her sense of self and thereby identifies with the infinite. This is absolute happiness. "If we attain this unity and identify ourselves with it," writes Chuang Zi, "then the members of our body are but so much dust and dirt, while life and death, end and beginning, are but as the succession of day and night, which cannot disturb our inner peace. How much less shall we be troubled by worldly gain and loss, good luck and bad luck!"
Unlike Confucianism, which is primarily a social philosophy, Daoism addresses metaphysical problems. It is a philosophy, indigenous to China, that seeks to explain the origins and processes of the universe.
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| May 21, 2007 @ 11:02 AM |
Philosophical Daoism on Religion, Governments and Knowledge
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FeliciVagano
Posts: 2,152
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everything was going well till I came to this part...
When the Dao is lost, there is the De .
When the De is lost, there is the virtue of human-heartedness.
When human-heartedness is lost there is the virtue of righteousness.
When righteousness is lost, there are the ceremonials.
These are the degeneration of loyalty and good faith and the beginning of Disorder."
this is not something I can embrace.. 
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| May 21, 2007 @ 11:22 AM |
Philosophical Daoism on Religion, Governments and Knowledge |
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yashaenka
Posts: 10,289
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Try reading it in a different context, start with the first line as representing Universal Harmony, the Awakened Ones or Enlightened ones.
As one turns away from this it becomes only awareness of ones self, Each step is but one step farther away from this. If you move away from human-heartedness it invokes self righteousness or group collective righteousness. Ceremonials represent the pomp and ceremony that religions add to some belief system.
The fracturing and splintering of belief systems over and order creates disorder among the vary factions.
This is seen today between monotheistic religions and between the same monotheistic factions within a religion.
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| May 21, 2007 @ 11:26 AM |
Philosophical Daoism on Religion, Governments and Knowledge
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FeliciVagano
Posts: 2,152
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Try reading it in a different context, start with the first line as representing Try reading it in a different context, start with the first line as representing Universal Harmony, the Awakened Ones or Enlightened ones.
, the Awakened Ones or Enlightened ones. 
this is where it lost me..maybe we should start with this..please explain "Universal Harmony" as you define it (or as Daoism defines it)
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| May 21, 2007 @ 11:41 AM |
Philosophical Daoism on Religion, Governments and Knowledge |
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yashaenka
Posts: 10,289
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When a person is Awakened or Enlightened his mortal mind accepts something other than mind, ego or body exists. So Soul, Spirit, Chi, ki, Hara as labels for a energy exists in the body, but not of the body. Once the mind can accept this that energy is connected with all that there is. Just accepting it exists is a baby step towards understanding and expanding True Self [energy] in a universal consciousness or awareness.
So to become Enlightened is not the end point it is the beginning point of a new awareness that your mind must accept also.
Universal harmony can be represented by a single drop of water in the ocean that only travels by evaporation, the rest of the time it is stationary but by the transfer of vibrations from it's neighbors it still feel what others feel in the same ocean.
[Edited on 5/21/2007 11:52 AM]
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| May 21, 2007 @ 11:58 AM |
Philosophical Daoism on Religion, Governments and Knowledge
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FeliciVagano
Posts: 2,152
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....the beginning point of a new awareness ( journey) to......just what/where?
BTW..IMO all religions embrace the "beginning of this new ______"...but how to get there is where everyone has a difference of opinion...
it seems that most eastern thoughts are - that the highs and lows in life are to be avoided... is this true for Daoism too ?..
( I do embrace "going with the flow " )
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| May 22, 2007 @ 9:43 AM |
Philosophical Daoism on Religion, Governments and Knowledge |
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yashaenka
Posts: 10,289
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No and Yes, because Eastern thought as a "Living Philosophy" today is no longer homogenous, in fact because of the Communist party Daoism/Taoism both Daojia "Philosophical' and Daojio "Religious" Daoism was forced underground. Fortunately before that occurred many translations of the Doa De Jing "Philosophical" Daoism were made available to the West. In the last decade or two the government has become less restrictive about both forms of Daoism. But there are many residing in China who know little of their own history today.
One of the best descriptions in general between Eastern and Western thinking can be found in the Tao of Physics. In Eastern thought they look at a problem as a whole, from the outside in, where in the West we look at the smallest part of a whole and by looking at each one we try to discern how it works. In Quantum Physics it is generally accepted that the Western view has about reached it's limits and further advances would require adopting the Eastern way of viewing those problems.
The why, what and where in Daoism points inward to find True Self, energy, spirit, where in the West they Embrace a God or Jesus with a heaven and hell. Daoism is a direct connection to all that there is, to free you from fear of death, since death does not occur. In the West one must accept a deity, both forms are trying to suggest when the body ceases to be, you continue on. The difference being between East and West what that means....
Daojia teaches to not strive needlessly because your body has finite physical resources, so do not waste them, therefore be like water which always seeks the path of least resistance. It also teaches to "Peel the onion of mind" just like Buddhist to separate untruth from truth for yourself to discover True Self so that your mind will accept something other than it exist. By inference it tells us to rank or eliminate emotions within Ego, so that they do not cause us emotional harm. Terms like non - doing really mean go with the flow, do not strive needlessly, it does not mean do nothing.
In the West Religion is all about striving, be born again, be saved, you must do this, or do that.....In Daojia and Zen (Chan) the reverse is true, it is more directed at acceptance and non striving. All religions and "Living Philosophies" essentially point to the same result, that of spirit, soul, true self, Chi, Ki, Hara a energy not of the body that is you, that is in harmony with all that there is. The labels, fables, the concept of Dualism, multiple Deities just make it appear confusing...I hope this helps....
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| May 22, 2007 @ 12:21 PM |
Philosophical Daoism on Religion, Governments and Knowledge
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FeliciVagano
Posts: 2,152
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 you are indeed a very wise man...thank you for your writing this..I am in complete agreement with everything you wrote.. especially the point on going with the flow of life..
and as for ..In the West Religion is all about striving, be born again, be saved, you must do this, or do that.....In Daojia and Zen (Chan) the reverse is true, it is more directed at acceptance and non striving. All religions and "Living Philosophies" essentially point to the same result, that of spirit, soul, true self, Chi, Ki, Hara a energy not of the body that is you, that is in harmony with all that there is. The labels, fables, the concept of Dualism, multiple Deities just make it appear confusing...
I can only add that if both sides were to look at this whole paragraph they just might figure out that neither side is that far off on the part of living in this world today..it is only the point of reincarnation that is different
To be saved is not something to strive for ..in fact, all it takes is to go with the flow of Jesus..accepting him as a personal savior..and living your life in harmony with his teachings..
IMO It is when man tries to complicate this ..that it becomes a point of striving
How is that part so different from eastern philosophy?
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| May 22, 2007 @ 1:07 PM |
Philosophical Daoism on Religion, Governments and Knowledge |
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yashaenka
Posts: 10,289
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It is really not that different between East and West because people are people. People in Asia can also strive but many times it is for perfection and they in general reflect less Ego, because that is very impolite. In Western traditions one is more apt to pursue Jesus or god or both in a blind faith way without reading the history of where the belief system came from. The monotheistic concept was based originally on Abraham which had influences in it from more ancient belief system going back to Egypt and Greek influence. The same is true of a messiah. But if Jesus represents an energy within you without dualism than that is no different than True Self as put forth in other belief systems.
The problem in the West their is no test to determine if a person truly achieves and Awakened state or Enlightenment thru monotheism. So many false people of blind faith profess to be Christian making a mockery of it where in the East no one would claim to be Awakened or Enlightened ever.
They would let others conclude that they are by actions....An awakened state is not the end goal and awakened state is the beginning of many Gateways one passes thru till Gates cease to be...
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| May 22, 2007 @ 1:41 PM |
Philosophical Daoism on Religion, Governments and Knowledge
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FeliciVagano
Posts: 2,152
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The problem in the West their is no test to determine if a person truly achieves and Awakened state or Enlightenment thru monotheism.
My thinking here is that the western phrase "to thine own self be true" comes into play here..there are no practice tests because there is only the final exam...at the time of "the death of the body" ( I chose this over just "death" just for 12knots) the spirit will be judged..and it is only a pass or fail test.... meaning every soul has to accept their fate in the next based on how they lived in the here and now.. (I'm still not sure whether or not there is a purgatory though)
So many false people of blind faith profess to be Christian making a mockery of it It is only a mockery to the outsiders looking in.. For the true christian understands this is a person committing sin..and is someone not going with "the flow of jesus". But a true christian has sympathy for them ..without too much judgement involved ..He who is without sin may cast the first stone ..
( but from my own personal perspective..they do deserve a whole lot of ridicule )
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| May 22, 2007 @ 2:09 PM |
Philosophical Daoism on Religion, Governments and Knowledge |
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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My thinking here is that the western phrase "to thine own self be true" comes into play here..there are no practice tests because there is only the final exam...at the time of "the death of the body"
This is a little difficult here. In Buddhism at the time of 'death of the body' the accumulation of good or bad deeds, karmic action will decide the next form of rebirth. You could say it is judgment.
Because this is karmic actions and not something that happens during your life without consequence until death and hence the judgment, karmic actions occur with consequences at any time. The most adept are able to see and know their karmic actions taking effect as they arise throughout life and during death.
You could say this isn't 'fixed'. For example, when you do something good you may get a good response immediately. Cut the neighbours lawn and they do something rewarding for you. Do something bad then also something may cause bad returned. Simple form of karmic action. Always in play. Always a consequence or causation. With the big tally at the end of your life dictating your next existence.
In Buddhism there are 'purgatory states' of Being as well as 'heavenly states' of Being. All dependent on karmic actions. The Buddhists have many hell and heavenly states as well as much higher states of Being before reaching the goal of enlightenment.
One of the best written books on karma and the death states:
The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, Sogyal Rinpoche. (This is the teachings of the Dzogchen Vrajayana Buddhists.)
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| May 22, 2007 @ 2:14 PM |
Philosophical Daoism on Religion, Governments and Knowledge
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yashaenka
Posts: 10,289
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In Eastern mysticism Zen, Buddhism, Taoism a person can use a Roshi, master or adept as a teacher who only points a way to self discovery. And by answers to koans or questions it is possible to determine if a person has had a partial awakening or achieved the first step in awakening. It is not the questions asked as much as the presentation of the answer. If I had not spent years in Japan through the 60's learning the old school ways I would probably be as lost as many neo seekers are in this country. Chan, Zen, Buddhism and Taoism centers here are not representative of what one would find in their native countries. The same is true for Christianity a middle eastern foundation moved to Rome than to the new world is adjusted for the people.
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| May 22, 2007 @ 2:29 PM |
Philosophical Daoism on Religion, Governments and Knowledge |
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yashaenka
Posts: 10,289
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I think what 12 is trying to say is the Buddhist this one and others have a way of baby steps well defined to help a practitioner on there way to define where they are in the awakening process. Where others may say do this, take this, accept this with little or no definition for realization of where your in the process.
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| May 22, 2007 @ 9:45 PM |
Philosophical Daoism on Religion, Governments and Knowledge
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waterfire
Posts: 2,947
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define where they are in the awakening process
I could never understand this, why someone would want to try to measure/define their growth, to me the result of the growth (the understanding, the experience) is enough.
To each their own
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| May 22, 2007 @ 10:04 PM |
Philosophical Daoism on Religion, Governments and Knowledge |
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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define where they are in the awakening process
This isn't what i was saying. Seeing the workings of karmic action, yes. But defining where they are in the awakening process, no.
A Master can see the karma of someone and knowing this and knowing what can be done could bring that person to an awakening. The person, themselves would not know where they are but only seeing fruits of their actions, good or bad.
A good example is Milarepa, Tibets greatest yogi. He went to a Master to study under him. However, the Master sent him through years of hardship and punishment. Why? To clear Milarepa's bad karma although Milarepa did not know this and thought he was going through hellish life with his Master.
Eventually when his Master wore off the bad karma, he was then able to bring Milarepa to realization and awakened.
There are many stories of this sort. There are today many practices to accumulate good merit and help bring enlightenment.
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| May 23, 2007 @ 8:41 AM |
Philosophical Daoism on Religion, Governments and Knowledge
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yashaenka
Posts: 10,289
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Waterfire,
An Awakening, Enlightenment or Being Saved is not the end point, but a starting point. It is where the real learning begins, all that came before it was to try to lift you out of ignorance. A person can claim to be saved or Enlightened but to what extent? It might just be the Camel's nose under the tent getting a sniff of what resides within.
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