| Jun 2, 2007 @ 12:19 AM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not
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onoudn
Posts: 6,354
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Plaintiff: Mr O files a claim in the court of MD blogland against the 12-steo fellowship alledging that the program claims of "not being religious but spiritual" are false. Furthermore he contends that the public funded program Mather Community Campus uses the erroneous claims regarding the religious nature of the program as a pretext to force the personal religious view of staff on the clients.
Defendants: The 12-step fellowship, Mather Community Campus, Volunteers of America.
Postion of defendants to be determined if and when anyone want to provide it from MD blogland.
Plantiff Statement:
Plantiff Mr. O entered into a legally binding agreement with Mather Community Campus on or around May 15, 2007. Soon thereafter Plantiff was required to attend mandatory 12-step meetings as a condition of continued partiipation in the Mather Community Campus public funded program.
On May 20, 2007 plaintiff made an internal grievance with Mather Community Campus which stated that he felt uncomfortable with the intense religious atomosphere at Mather Community Campus. He contended that the faith based orgainzaton of Volunteers of America staff were forcing thier personal religous beliefs on the clients. He also stated that he believed that the claims that the 12-step program was "not religious but spirtual" were factually inaccurate.
In support of his claims Mr O mentioned several instances where staff had pressured him to particpate in religous services and/or recite prayers he believed to be based on the Christian religion. In one instance Mr. O was in attendance of a mandatory group session where a student went into a 10 minute tirade regarding "all of us being in the devil playgroud". Mr. O stated that he raised concerns about this with his case manager Ms. Butler. Ms. Butler responded by stating that Mr. O was not going to get away from God in the program.
There were several other instances as well...
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 2:31 AM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not |
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kjac
Posts: 8,163
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As the plaintiff, you would need to provide more than just your own testimony. Are there any other witnesses or facts to verify the plaintiff's case? Another blogger who participated in the program perhaps?
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 2:55 AM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not
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painter007
Posts: 17,854
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FROM WIKIPEDIA A primary tenet of 12-step recovery requires a member to surrender willful self-reliance (a purported characteristic of afflicted persons), to adopt the practice of reliance on God, or another "Higher Power" of the member's own understanding. Proponents of twelve-step programs allege that agnostics and even atheists can be helped by the program, as a member’s concept of a Higher Power may originate (and/or remain) with the 12-step group itself. With time, any other entity, thing(s) or object(s) that aid a member in accepting their powerlessness over their problem, are claimed to become the Higher Power that will help them to recover. It is colloquially stated that any Power perceived as being greater than oneself will do, provided the power is not any other, single individual, or one's own unaided will.
Also its stated ..............................
"turn our will and life over to the care of God as WE understood him"
I say...if you have a problem with the words God or Higher power...get out of the treatment center and do it on your own....
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 3:03 AM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not |
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kjac
Posts: 8,163
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That would seem to support the claim painter. But the core question is, are they a government program, or a program that recieves financial assistance from the government. There is a difference.
[Edited on 6/2/2007 3:20 AM]
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 3:13 AM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not
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painter007
Posts: 17,854
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I am curious for those who respond have you gone thru a 12 step program?
I have........
And we are lucky to have these programs whether they are funded by the govt or not.....
we are lucky that its now called a disease whether it is or not....insurance is available for us to get sober.
I would think any alcoholic who wants to get sober would pray to a lamp if thats what was told would help them on the road to recovery.
Try waking up in a gutter like many do..or live under a bridge like many do....or face charges of killing someone after driving drunk like many do......or lose your job and family like many do....and they (alcoholic) wants to complain he has to pray to a God AS THEY UNDERSTAND HIM or seek a higher power.....
sheesh.........they will end up using that as a excuse to have another drink. jmo
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 3:20 AM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not |
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kjac
Posts: 8,163
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I never took part in the 12 step stuff. At my lowest point in the service, I was drinking in El Paso and woke up in Alamogordo about 110 miles away the next morning, with no idea how I got there. That was when I stopped drinking. I didn't need to pray to a lamp or a mythological creature. I just stopped.
But as for the topic of the thread, since all witnesses involved are claiming it is religious based and biased, it is natural to assume it so. My question would be whether this treatment was court ordered or not. If it is court ordered, it is wrong, period. Otherwise, find other means of treatment, such as actual qualified counselors or mental health professionals.
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 3:33 AM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not
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painter007
Posts: 17,854
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you are lucky you just stopped and I went thru treatment but do not go to AA meetings.
But I am thankful there was a treatment center and I was willing to do or pray to whatever was told to me just to stop drinking....but thats me...I gave up fighting what people told me would help me...I surrendered so to speak.
I am glad your sober...life is much better when you can remember how you got somewhere...In fact the road to that place was probably worth all your memories 
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 3:45 AM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not |
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kjac
Posts: 8,163
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There are so many ways to seek help now that it's easy to find one not religious based. I do disagree with unaided will. I think that can be the strongest tool in the human arsenal for any problem, if you allow yourself to use it. Unfortunately, too many people rely on one crutch or another and cripple their ability to have unaided willpower.
Forcing a religion on a non-believer will not heal them in any way. That, and the violation of rights, are the biggest reasons I am against this kind of "treatment". If a person feels you are more concerned with converting him than healing him, nothing you say will hold value to him. And that is obviously the case here.
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 3:52 AM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not
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painter007
Posts: 17,854
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I never had anyone try to convert me....It just didnt happen......But thats not to say it doesnt happen....
And not everyone may be as strong as you and needs the help......I am not afraid or ashamed to admit that.
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 6:24 AM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not |
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sealacamp
Posts: 3,681
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And how does one follow this trail?
S
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 7:03 AM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not
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Quartz202
Posts: 77
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Forcing a religion on a non-believer...
I often here poor victims of 'religion' (whatever that is) complain they have had religion 'forced on them'.
Other variations include "Religion is fine but dont 'force it down my throat'" or "they force their beliefs on people".
Question: How exactly can anyone 'force beliefs' or 'force religion' on someone (whatever is meant by that) and can you give me an example. Give me a scenario?
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 9:30 AM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not |
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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A few examples where religion is forced upon you.....
Courts often force people to go to AA programs where "God" is used as the higher power.
In a court of law you are made to swear on a bible. You can refuse to do so but its presented often and your testimony might be regarded as less truthful if you do not place your hand on the bible and swear. Its ironic that the bible is being used at all because if you follow God's law you'd wind up in jail for murder or some other crime.
"In God We Trust" on our money.
Many towns around the country still have "blue" laws.
The Pledge of Allegiance has "one nation under God".
A bike path lane was being painted on the street through a particular neighborhood of mostly Hasidic Jews. They protested because people who are athletic and ride bicycles wear shorts and expose too much skin. Hasidics wear full length black coats and hats even in 90 degree weather.
Christmas is a legal holiday. What about religious holidays for other religions?
and so on.......
[Edited on 6/2/2007 9:36 AM]
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 10:56 AM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not
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kjac
Posts: 8,163
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If this were an actual trial, it would seem to be a pretty open and shut case. Both actual witnesses claim that it is a religious-based organization. And I find it amusing that the OP is an actual example, and a comment on the thread asked for an example. 
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 11:03 AM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not |
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sealacamp
Posts: 3,681
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Courts often force people to go to AA programs where "God" is used as the higher power.
And exactly how does that force a belief into someone's head or their heart?
Prosecuting someone for hate crimes when they merely voice their belief is forcing one to conform to a belief system outside of their own. That is the closest example anyone can find where an attempt to force a belief on another person is attempted in the USA. Even then only external action is affected and a persons belief inside is not changed unless that person chooses to change that belief.
The second example of an attempt to force a belief is what is going on in many muslim communities around the world now. Believe as we do or die. So you must at the least put on the external motions of conforming to that belief or they will kill you. And even then what is in a persons heart is hidden from any other person. So hammer your examples are moot and you have no more viability to your supposed evidence any way. You blew it and so did kjac by putting your words in a dead mans mouth. But that is your way isn't it?
S
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 11:15 AM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not
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Loreli
Posts: 25,401
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Christmas is a legal holiday. What about religious holidays for other religions? sorry 
(Kwaanza, Ramadan, Hannukuh, etc- if people can prove a religious affiliation, I'm all for others getting the day off to worship, celebrate (Might be harder for the weeklong or month-long observances)
Not all Christians can get Good Friday, Easter Sunday, etc off. I know some forced to work Christmas.There could be a trade off, because I know others of various religions that happily accept Christmas off, and with pay even when they don't observe it.)
Back on topic- as Painter posted, it says God or another Higher power of the members understanding so other ideals should not be forced.
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 11:17 AM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not |
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kjac
Posts: 8,163
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The witnesses have spoken, and I wasn't one of them seal, yet you attempt to slam me instead of addressing the topic. The topic of this thread is whether or not AA is religious, and the witnesses involved have stated that it is. So instead of providing contradictory evidence, you attempt to insult people who neither claimed to be a witness, or started the discussion.
But that is your way isn't it?
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 11:26 AM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not
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sealacamp
Posts: 3,681
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you attempt to insult people who neither claimed to be a witness, or started the discussion.
You insulted yourself by torpedoing your credibility and refusing to iterate the facts. Instead you iterated your version of the facts which were in fact not factual. You were called out on this by several people and you still refused to admit what the real facts were. Therefore you insulted yourself and destroyed your credibility. You and hammer have deleted any credibility that you may have had. And if you consider that to be an insult then go look in the mirror and you will see the one that insulted you.
S
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 11:29 AM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not |
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painter007
Posts: 17,854
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I say once again Who here has been to a 12 step program?
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 11:36 AM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not
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kjac
Posts: 8,163
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As far as the comments here, so far just you and Ono, painter. His position has been made obvious, and you said:
Also its stated ..............................
"turn our will and life over to the care of God as WE understood him"
I say...if you have a problem with the words God or Higher power...get out of the treatment center and do it on your own....
If there are any other people who have been there, I would love to hear from them. The people who go through the program are the only true voice for whether or not it is a religious based program. I had a roommate in the service who had to go through AA, and he also "found" god. But he never discussed his treatment, so I cannot say whether the two are linked.
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 11:44 AM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not |
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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Loreli
What is a legal holiday? Christmas is a "legal" holiday. Look it up. As for what you on that day, its your business. Kwaanza and the others are not "legal" holidays but people who are believers are usually allowed a day of observance. Thats not a "legal" day off, its corporate policy.
Seal
I wrote
Courts often force people to go to AA programs where "God" is used as the higher power. Then you wrote something stupid as usual.
And exactly how does that force a belief into someone's head or their heart? The is where mentally ill religiosity is exposed. Denial and ignorance overshadow logic and reasoning.
To address Onoudn's OP.
In support of his claims Mr O mentioned several instances where staff had pressured him to particpate in religous services and/or recite prayers he believed to be based on the Christian religion Plaintiff wins this case. No asinine belief system should be forced on anyone even if its a Christian system on another Christian from a different denomination.
Religiosity does not help people, it damages what little self-esteem one has and imposes dogmatic and delusional beliefs on a victim like a virus.
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