| Jun 2, 2007 @ 11:52 AM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not
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painter007
Posts: 17,921
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The main thing AA does stress is GOD as WE (I the person in AA ) understand him...They may use God but you could use the waves of a ocean as your higher power. Its part of the surrendering...admitting your powerless over your addiction...and turning it over to someone..or something else. When your that far down and cant see up....its a relief to let it go and believe that there is someone or something to take your hand and help you along till you can find your strength inside to walk upright. 
I was 25 when I went thru treatment and maybe have gone to a half dozen AA..meetings and never felt religion was forced on me.
All the people who are involved with AA are in recovery of some form of another and almost all the people working at treatment centers are in recovery...and if I can say one thing with almost certainty...we dont like to be told how to run our individual recovery plan. lol
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 12:25 PM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not |
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kattsmeow
Posts: 22,833
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My question would be whether this treatment was court ordered or not. If it is court ordered, it is wrong, period. Otherwise, find other means of treatment, such as actual qualified counselors or mental health professionals.
One of the reasons my son didn't want to go.
Most courts now just ask you to get into "some kind of substance abuse" class instead of AA.
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 12:30 PM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not
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kjac
Posts: 8,163
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Katts is partially correct. I have seen both cases of specific and non-specific court ordered rehabs. But I think that most courts would be more than willing to work with the individual to find a treatment program right for them. After all, the object of the treatment is to find a life without addiction.
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 12:48 PM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not |
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onoudn
Posts: 6,354
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I''ve been in several program that use the 12-step program as the only means to recovery. Mather Community Campus is a real place. It is located near Sacramento California at what used to be Mather Air Force base. It is a transitional living facilty funded by US Dept of Housing and Urban Development aka HUD.
You get into Mather by being referred through other places. I was referred by Volunteers of America aka VOA, a faith-based organization that dominates the private social services contracts in Sacramento. VOA staff told me that the 12-step program was "not religious but spiritual" yet wanted me to turn my will and my life over to GOD. As I Buddhist I had a problem with this. I asked about it several times. But I was told to fake it until I made it and eventually my discomfort would fade. It never did.
I was accepted into Mather after three months intense indoctrination into the 12-step fellowship. Completion of a 12-step program was mandatory before acceptance. No other treatment program was ever offered or encouraged. In fact participation in any other program was aggressively discouraged. At my first community meeting at Mather VOA staff was leading people in the serinity prayer, staff was making bold proclamations at these meetings such as " God is in the house today" and " there is definetly a God"...And clients were making the same sort of statements.
I filed an internal grievance and staff agreed to stop.
But at my next group session the incident with the fellow talking about being in the devils playground happened. Following that I spoke to my case manager, who was the facilatator of the group and I was told that I should leave if I didn't like talking about God.
I don't have any witnesses. None that are bold enough to come forwards
And I doubt if anyone will come forward on this blog as they seem to feel that any discussion on the religious nature of the program is detrimental to recovery...I respect that.
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 12:52 PM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not
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kjac
Posts: 8,163
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Actually Ono, painter and you have both accepted that it is religious based, but have different views on whether it is acceptably so. Being that there are no other witnesses, and the fact that the statements of the two available witnesses are similar, the conclusion is that yes, it is faith based.
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 1:01 PM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not |
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onoudn
Posts: 6,354
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I was at 12-step meeting not so long ago where they were still telling people that it was not a religious program. It was a NA meeting in the bay area. And I'm just waking up and haven't read all the thread yet. Just glanced over it. I'm I the only one who has been at a meeting recently?
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 1:02 PM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not
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Loreli
Posts: 25,816
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Loreli
What is a legal holiday? Christmas is a "legal" holiday. Look it up. As for what you on that day, its your business. Kwaanza and the others are not "legal" holidays but people who are believers are usually allowed a day of observance. Thats not a "legal" day off, its corporate policy. No kidding. 
Did I say anything other than that?
Painter-
I have never been to AA, but dated a guy that was ordered to go. He was quite into his personal trust in God.
I have known others that quit and did it on their own.
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 1:11 PM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not |
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onoudn
Posts: 6,354
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The main thing AA does stress is GOD as WE (I the person in AA ) understand him...They may use God but you could use the waves of a ocean as your higher power. Its part of the surrendering...admitting your powerless over your addiction...and turning it over to someone..or something else. When your that far down and cant see up....its a relief to let it go and believe that there is someone or something to take your hand and help you along till you can find your strength inside to walk upright
This isn't really true. You can pretend for a while but unless you accept a Christian model of God you are not going to get very far with the program. It will be just to confusing. I don't understand why the program even tells people this. If you read the Big Book its obvious that its the God from, what was recently explain to me as, the God in The King James Bible. Also, if you concur with the Christian faith you probally not going to feel that religion is being forced on you.
One thing that I have done in the past is refer to court rulings on this subject. here is an quote from one source http://www.peele.net/lib/drunk.html
Defendants who are accused of 12-step coercion invariably claim that AA is a spiritual, not a religious, program. Keating defends this notion at length. Yet "God," or "Him," or a "higher power," is mentioned in half of the 12 steps. Keating singles out as essential "AA's elegant third step: 'Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.' " (Note to Keating: this is actually AA's second step.) Like other AA defenders, Keating says that this higher power can be anything, "a dead ancestor, a tall tree, or the group itself."
But does Keating really mean that belief in trees can "restore sanity"? For their part, the courts have rejected such arguments. As is the case with many AA groups, those that Robert Warner attended in 1990 began with a religious invocation and ended with a Christian prayer. More basically, New York's highest court pointed out in its decision in Griffin that "a fair reading of the fundamental A.A. doctrinal writings discloses that their dominant theme is unequivocally religious. . . . While A.A. literature declares an openness and tolerance for each participant's personal vision of God . . ., the writings demonstrably express an aspiration that each member of the movement will ultimately commit to a belief in the existence of a Supreme Being of independent higher reality than humankind."
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 1:37 PM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not
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onoudn
Posts: 6,354
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Quartz202
Question: How exactly can anyone 'force beliefs' or 'force religion' on someone (whatever is meant by that) and can you give me an example. Give me a scenario?
Hammer answered with: Courts often force people to go to AA programs where "God" is used as the higher power.
Quartz202
And exactly how does that force a belief into someone's head or their heart?
You are kidding right? Hammers example is a pretty good one.
If you force someone to attend meetings where a certain belief is constantly being hammered into their thoughts is how exactly it enters into ones head and heart. Its brainwashing. This is why I believe the 12-step fellowship is still telling people that the program is not religious when it is.
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 1:41 PM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not |
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onoudn
Posts: 6,354
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AND BY THE WAY I HOPE NO ONE RESPONDS TO THE 12-STEP FELLOWSHIP ADS. CONSIDER WHAT KIND OF PERSON WOULD ADVERT ON A PAGE WHERE THE PERSON THAT POSTED IT CLEARLY DISAGREES WITH THE ADVERT.
USE EITHER RATIONAL RECOVERY OR SMART RECOVERY
THE 12-STEPS DON'T WORK. DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME WITH IT.
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 1:54 PM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not
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onoudn
Posts: 6,354
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great comments everyone thanks
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 2:20 PM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not |
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kattsmeow
Posts: 22,833
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I applaude what AA does!!! It sure has helped more people than not. 
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 2:52 PM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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AA will work for some for those with little or no structure. Thats like giving methadone to a heroin addict. Switching one addiction for another addiction that is control by others(structured) instead of yourself(unstructured). Religion is the same thing. Giving someone religion is only giving them rules and regulations. For those who hit bottom anything is good. For someone drowning, even debris at sea will keep them afloat. Some choice!!!! Religion is nothing more than mind control in this situation. Its disrpectful to anyone of any other faith or those who don't need dogmatic faith. Actually no needs dogmatic faith except for those who are by nature weak. There is no rationality to this kind of treatment of people. Its completely wrong on many levels and only creates a new set of problems.
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 3:21 PM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not |
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onoudn
Posts: 6,354
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I applaude what AA does!!! It sure has helped more people than not
Actually AA has a failure rate of about 95%. Out of 100 people it might help 5.
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 3:55 PM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not
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onoudn
Posts: 6,354
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If I might. The question has been raised in the past. Who cares if the 12-step program is religious or not? I don't think thats really responsive to the question of whether its a religous program or not, but I guess thats just me. The question I have is why wouldn't a person that claims that its not a religious program, and therefore relies on the program for sustained recovery, not have a ready answer? In my mind evading the question is evading whether or not the program is truely the means by which you stay clean and sober. If you do it despite all the evidence that the program is not the reason. I submit that you would have stayed clean and sober regardless of whether you used the 12-step program. You did it by your own free will. Don't let anyone tell you different because its just not true.
Ok so it seems that Hammer and Kjac have presented a prettty good case in favor of the plaintiff. I'm still waiting for a counter arguement, other than personal attacks on commentators you don't agree on, or erroneous statements with no foundations or support. So far it looks like I won the case. Still waiting though.
[Edited on 6/2/2007 4:45 PM]
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 5:41 PM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not |
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Angel54214
Posts: 19,005
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When you have won the case, is when you wake up one morning and your free from the bondage that you allowed to chain you.
All the tools people freely offer and design, weither it is a book, a meeting or a pill, only steers one in the right direction. But it is within the person's mind to how those tools are used and if used. It's about changing one's life, changing one's self for the better and longivity with happyness and joy that a bondage keeps one from. When we choose a bondage, we are not fee to share our true selves with others and enjoy this wonderful unity.
I say this from my heart, not in a religious or spirtual subjection. What we reap, we shall sow. It is not easy and no one says that it is, but working towards inner self importance of priorities of life, will sow the seeds that will grow upon friends and loved ones as well as self. If one stops growing, one stops living...
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 5:49 PM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not
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Jen89
Posts: 67
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Actually AA has a failure rate of about 95%. Out of 100 people it might help 5.
And your theory is because it is faith based? Or the fact that most people fail going through rehab, especially the first few times. I'd liked to see more data on that, comparing other substance/alcohol centers/treatment versus AA. My guess would be similiar failure rates. JMHO Substance abuse, alcohol, drugs are hard to kick.... period.
Jen 
*edited for grammar
[Edited on 6/2/2007 5:59 PM]
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 5:56 PM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not |
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kattsmeow
Posts: 22,833
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I have heard that a person that tries to quit smoking goes through it 10 times before they actually quit.
I know for a fact it isn't easy to quit drinking. Alcohol is the most abused drug!
I do occasionally drink some wine or sherry, or on a hot day a cold beer.
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 6:02 PM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not
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kjac
Posts: 8,163
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Angel seems to be back on her bondage kick again. 
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| Jun 2, 2007 @ 6:05 PM |
Lets Have a Mock trail to determine if the 12-step program is religious or not |
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Angel54214
Posts: 19,005
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Angel seems to be back on her bondage kick again. There's just someth'n about that word that grabs me!
Katt...you lush! 
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