| May 29 @ 2:15 PM |
Testimonies of those who have seen the Lord
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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Sail
Perhaps it was one of his better posts. It does sound good but is flawed. Its more of an excuse rather than an epistemological reason for believing in something without veracity.
This statement is interesting.
Personal knowledge becomes irrelevant at that point and only knowledge that is beyond the person can even begin to explain. and that is the reason why we use such devices as metaphor and allegory but personal knowledge is never irrelevant even when when one is admitting to ignorance. Personal knowledge should grow when one perceives of something unknown. Personal knowledge will also determine how one learns about the unknown.
Many times something so far outside of the ordinary happens that it is clear what it was and where it came from. It might be clear if you can perceive it without distortion.
And here's the excuse and the flaw.
That is why so many that end up believing in the Lord can not be shaken from their faith. The break here is one believes in something because something else unrelated was experienced. Its the usual argument from ignorance. Just because there is a grand canyon or stars in the sky is being used as proof god exists or leprechauns exist or whatever you want to exist. It just doesn't work.
Unless one is seeing Jesus in person, in reality, there is no support for the so called Lord. So Jesus must make a personal appearance, the out of the ordinary event. Is that what Seal means? So what about the hallucinations? It seems such folks have a difficulty telling hallucinations from reality.
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| May 29 @ 2:27 PM |
Testimonies of those who have seen the Lord |
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 833
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Testimonies of those who have seen the Lord All right, baring my soul and leaving myself open to ridicule, I have will confess that I have, just once. Sort off.
It was about 25 years ago.
Normally, I am a little shy about my religion. I find flaunting it about sort of vulgar, and distasteful don't want to be like those who do.
However, the bible also not to be secretive about it, and not to fear giving testimony.
Anyhow, sometime in the early 80's I was at a revival of a church I normally don't atttend, and the sermon was about not fearing God's presence. I was always self concious about doing things like praying aloud if someone else could, or lifting my hands if someone else could see, and that was exactly what the sermon was about. He was saing things like "don't short change yourself. Drink to your fill. Don't be "a little dab will do you" sort of Christain"
He said that one time he was meeting with a bunch of religous leaders of big churches and God spoke to him to dance. He didn't want to, so he ignored it. God spoke to him again and he complied. He abruptly got up, and started to dance and praise God. His wife was furious! She pulled him aside and was giving him a tongue lashing.
He told her "the next dance is yours" because (as he described it) it is NOT easy to humble yourself before men, in order to be pleasing to God. It is NOT easy to open yourself up to ridicule by doing what you feel god is asking of you.
Anyhow, all this struck a nerve. At the end of the sermon, I went up front for the altar call. I had friends there, but I didn't care. I was fixated with a single purpose of direction. I felt like, if this is what I was dedicated to, it was time I stepped up to the plate and got a piece of the pie.
There were maybe 15 or so people up there, but he went to me and started praying over me. The next part is sort of strange and vague. I didn't know what it meant to be "slain in the spirit" , and still really don't know, but I was knocked back. It was sort of an out of body expereince. I don't know that I "saw" God but I was intimately in his prescence for about 10-15 minutes. I had never felt anything like it before or since.
When I came out of it, it was, pardon the reference, alot like having had an orgasm. What I mean is, my mind was reeling such that I couldn't really understand or really properly remember what it was that just happened.
It was lot like when you wake up from a dream, and you can't really hardly remember the dream, but you still have this feeling of when you were in the dream.
I had this overwhelming and unspeakble joy flowing through me. It was like, wow, I finally met God for real, but I couldn't remember anything specific about it, just the residula feeling of having been in his presence. It was the most joyous, euphoric moment of my life.
Up until now, I don't think I have ever told anybody about it. I really didn't want to hear some dogma-parrot telling me "Oh I get that ever Saturday night" or telling me "God told me tell you it meant X" It was what it was, and I have never brought it up to anyone until now.
My friend Greg, who was there when it happened, asked me about it a few months after it happened. I shrugged and told him I couldn't tell him what is was all about, because I didn't really know.He let it drop after that and we never talked about it again.
Anyhow, that was my experience, how ever you want to label it or quanitfy it. It only happened just that once. Although, I really still can't tell you much about what it was like or what it was all about. It was wonderful.
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| May 29 @ 2:31 PM |
Testimonies of those who have seen the Lord
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,584
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Hammer,
By now you should know that I agree with you.
The point is that Seal did a good job on describing why some christians adopt their faith and why they can not be shaken it.
I don't happen to agree with him that this for some reason magically changes fantasy into truth, but he did describe christian thinking in a well thought out post.
The problem is that you expect him to change the way he looks at things and you will never be able to do it.
Did his post have any veracity? No.
Did it describe the christian mind set? Yes.
Peace
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| May 29 @ 2:35 PM |
Testimonies of those who have seen the Lord |
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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Many things are "logical" because we perceive them that way. It isnt always so. "Our Logic" sits in jails waiting for the innocent man to be freed. Unfortunately many have been executed because of logic yet were truthfully innocent. Bad example of logic. Justice is about convincing a jury to decide a verdict. Often there aren't enough facts or wrong facts and half truths. Logic would dictate to get all the facts but emotions dictate something else. When those facts show up after the guy is fried, everyone feels bad about it. Its not a perfectly logical system.
Again, you can NOT judge another mans experience as an "Hallucination," because to do so is ignorance. Who can judge another mans experience as the innocent man is executed? Its a hallucination if you are seeing Elvis sitting right in front of you right now. However its not a hallucination of you imagining Elvis sitting in front of you right now. Not knowing the difference is ignorance and the reason for blind faith.
Each individual will perceive his experiences as they are. Hardly as they are but as the mind processes them. What two witnesses even completely agree on an event they both saw together?
What other man has the right to say another man is right or wrong because he experiences a vision, or a phenomena, the accuser can not experience another's path. Its not that difficult understanding things as the psychotic sees them with enough training and understanding how the mind works. We know a lot more today than we did say a fifty years ago. We're still learning.
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| May 29 @ 2:36 PM |
Testimonies of those who have seen the Lord
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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Did his post have any veracity? No.
Did it describe the christian mind set? Yes. And that is why I find R&S so entertaining... 
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| May 29 @ 2:50 PM |
Testimonies of those who have seen the Lord |
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ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 4,169
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Lance, I'm able to relate to that. I understand what you're talking about. While I cannot say that I know exactly what you're talking about...I am able to relate to what you're saying.
Somehow, (to me), desribing the experience as wonderful is somehow inadequate.
(I'm not intending to be critical...it's just that for me, the experience you describe was a little richer, fuller, more-completely overwhelming. But yes, it was wonderful.  )
I found the joy to be something that felt too wonderful to ignore. 
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| May 29 @ 2:53 PM |
Testimonies of those who have seen the Lord
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16knots
Posts: 3,627
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Lance, great post. Thank you for sharing your experiences.
***
Here lays the problem.... when someone has "experiences" they interpret according to what they know. How they perceive it is based on their mind's interpretation as to the communication from their sensory organs, the ear, nose, eyes, touch, taste and sixth conscious level.
To a Christian it can be a meeting of Jesus, God or oneness with a something. To another man it is the same experience but interpreted according to that mans belief.
Who judges the experience, only the experiencer. Nearly all experiences comes from limited knowledges in the same way that a person who has never seen electric light or an airplane may say these are from God and are divine.
The experience could be one of a number of phenomena:
It is exactly as it is described.
An Hallucination brought about.
An Hypnosis either self imposed or by another.
A little known mechanism of mind and body that when condition are met bring about the phenomena.
A true spiritual phenomena but not understood as described because lack of knowledge.
.... and more can be listed.
However, a master of these things do know what the experience can be. Over whelming Joy is often experienced by meditors even as described to the state of feeling an orgasm. Funny enough, it is said ways to get close to enlightenment.... a sneeze, a meditation, an orgasm... (One looses one's mind)
A learned Buddhist knows of these things. They know the experiences. Spiritual Beings beyond our earthly realm. They know overwhelming joy and even the term "rapture" as it occurs during meditation. All phenomenas to lead one away from the true nature of the mind.
In away an experience can be real and it is real to the receiver but is it the minds play, deceptor from the path of the way?
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| May 29 @ 3:04 PM |
Testimonies of those who have seen the Lord |
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 833
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To a Christian it can be a meeting of Jesus, God or oneness with a something. To another man it is the same experience but interpreted according to that mans belief. All true.
I am not here to try to convince anyone of anything
I am only recounting what happened to me, and what I expereinced. I am (or try to be) a practical lets-sort-the-real-from-the-pretend sort of Christian. I refuse to be a "ain't I so holy, and you're a can of worms" type, cause frankly, that sort pisses me off.
I have been shot up with morphine in the hospital, and it was a wild ride. I have also experienced other euphorias under other medications. I never experienced anything like this before or since.
But really,
Just me saying it, of course, doesn't really prove anything to anybody. There is no shortage of folks wanting to recount their wonderful experiences and proclaim themselves the right-hand of God.
Even though what I offer is certainly not proof, prehaps, some who know me to not be the "ain't I a wonderful christain" sort of boaster, might give my tale some merit.
Not enough to prove, but maybe enough to believe.
And really,
believing is the bet you can hope for.
[Edited on 5/29/2008 3:06 PM]
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| May 29 @ 3:05 PM |
Testimonies of those who have seen the Lord
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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Of course mental masturbation results is a mental orgasm, or "religious ecstasy". However real orgasms are far better with someone sexually compatible. Some use to say skydiving is so much fun that its better than sex. The right answer is well, you're just not having great sex. What the hell, both can kill you now-a-days.
The temporal lobes, amygdala and hippocampus have been shown to be involved in the experience of visions, profound experiences. Plenty of self stroking and you will have a brain fart of sorts. Thats your experience of God, Jesus, Mohammed, Krishna, Brahma, Zeus, Pink elephants, space aliens.
I can see how excited SOC gets when someone talks about his. The invisible man experience is probably the reason he gave up sex. Its a lot easier than finding a date and doesn't cost anything.... 
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| May 29 @ 3:08 PM |
Testimonies of those who have seen the Lord |
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 833
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Of course mental masturbation results is a mental orgasm, or "religious ecstasy". However real orgasms are far better with someone sexually compatible. Some use to say skydiving is much fun its better than sex, and the right answer is well, you're just not having great sex.
Well hammer, you know you never really understand it until you've been through it.
I went through it, and still don't understand it.
It is sort of a hard thing to confess, but I felt obligate to offer it up.
If you totally disreguard it, I am good with that.
I don't know anything, and don't presume to.
I am just offering a "this is what happened to me"
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| May 29 @ 3:14 PM |
Testimonies of those who have seen the Lord
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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Well hammer, you know you never really understand it until you've been through it. I've been through enough. I've had my own brain farts and can easily reproduce them if I get bored.
As for not being able to explain them. They have been explained and more research is being done. Ramachandran, Harris, Pribram, Hameroff, Persinger, Newberg, etc are just a few folks leading the study neurotheology, cognitive sciences, and consciousness.
If you really want to get screwed up. Have a reverend or a pastor explain them. Make sure you can offer a tax free donation too.
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| May 29 @ 3:28 PM |
Testimonies of those who have seen the Lord |
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 833
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If you really want to get screwed up. Have a reverend or a pastor explain them. Make sure you can offer a tax free donation too.
Not bad, hammer.
Hang in there.
The best line in "Roadhouse" was when Patrick Swayze said to his landlord, "OK, I will pay that, as long as it keeps you in good graces with the church"
To which the old landlord muses "Ain't it peculair how money seems to do that very thing"
hammr, dude, i hope you see that I ain't no preacher. I also hope you don't put me in the same bag as some of the "ain't I so holy" dogma-parrots (did I mention hunt?) that have soured you on the whole idea.
I want and expect nothing from you.
I am just telling what happened to me. Sorry. but I am just not the arm-twister sort. That as far as I go.
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| May 29 @ 4:21 PM |
Testimonies of those who have seen the Lord
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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Lance
I loved Roadhouse. Patrick Swayze and Sam Elliot made a good team.
I know you're no preacher and I know you were giving an honest account the way your saw it. All I'm saying is there are reasons why your experience happened the way it did. For some devious reason, religion has capitalized on these aspects of the human brain and mind. They make a ton of money doing so. They were able to control nations by controlling minds.
I've said this before. Religion doesn't care that you have hallucinations as long as they're the right ones.
Don't get me wrong. I do not discount the value of "epiphanies", "peak experiences" because they are all spritual experiences good or bad. I don't discount the value of LSD, Peyote or other psychoactive drugs either when used properly. Native Americans have been doing this for ages in their vision quests and so have many other religions. I don't say you shouldn't have those experiences. I believe you should for recreation or spiritual growth but in the right context and the right discipine whatever that means. What I am against is calling it something its not and making out to be something its not.
In meditation or in some conditions there is a point where self dissolves and self and other dissolves. This is called single pointed consciousness. Its a feeling of merging with the All. Being one with all, one with nature. You might say its God. Someone else will say its the Universe. Someone else will say Brahma. Its pretty much the same or some similar experience taken in context of the culture. The experience is valid but its interpretation is often distorted by dogma, lies and ignorance. That is why turning inward for answers is where one must go but doing so free of indoctrination and dogmatic approach but especially with proper training.
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| May 29 @ 5:14 PM |
Testimonies of those who have seen the Lord |
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16knots
Posts: 3,627
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That is why turning inward for answers is where one must go but doing so free of indoctrination and dogmatic approach but especially with proper training.
Way of the Buddha.
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| May 29 @ 6:29 PM |
Testimonies of those who have seen the Lord
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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Way of the Buddha.
Its a way. Not to say its the way. I do hope one day no such name tags are used. No more Buddhas, Jesus, Santa, Pazuzu or Microsoft. Either we come to some realization they are all describing variations the same thing or it would be best to eliminate all of them.
Bruce Lee (Jun Fan) taught to eliminate all that doesn't work. Even said of his own book, Jeet Kune Do that its pages should be torn out and best used to clean up a mess. He studied religion and martial arts systems. He call them organized despair. That is what he wanted to eliminate within himself. That a man should not add anything to himself but like a sculpture, chip away at all the nonessentials. Whats left is a work of art. The sculpture is an artist that reveals what already exists. His spiritually was the same way and so was his martial art.
[Edited on 5/29/2008 6:38 PM]
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| May 29 @ 11:56 PM |
Testimonies of those who have seen the Lord |
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hunt4luv
Posts: 1,234
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Sad to say It but I Am Begaining to believe there is no end to the depths of your shameful behavior.
We are told we will be held accountable for every idle word that comes out of our mouths.
We are told not to cast our pearls before the swine.
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| May 30 @ 12:16 AM |
Testimonies of those who have seen the Lord
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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Hunt
What are griping about? Something bothering you? Can't sleep or something?
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| May 30 @ 12:39 AM |
Testimonies of those who have seen the Lord |
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loisday
Posts: 1,333
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Lance.....................what a wonderful and brave statement. I so admire you.
Knotty.................Of all the postings you do...........the ones in this thread were absolutely awesome. Thank you, I really got so much from them........ 
[Edited on 5/30/2008 1:46 AM]
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| May 30 @ 1:38 AM |
Testimonies of those who have seen the Lord
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Angel54214
Posts: 14,063
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Me too Lance! I admire you bringing your enlightment to share with us by the awes of our Lord. That's what makes him so personal to all that turn around and take notice. I sense that through your experience, you came to undertanding something; no words were needed; no weighing out this and that, just that you being alive came to a fullment by a glimpse of given glory that he shared with your deepest abyss of your soul.
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| May 30 @ 6:20 AM |
Testimonies of those who have seen the Lord |
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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So is flipping out what awes of the Lord is? Is that the same when people dance themselves into a frenzy or whirling dervishes spin their brains? How about those wack jobs speaking gibberish nonsense? Do Christians deliberately like to make fools of themselves?
How's this?
http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=1322333458
Notice how someone flips out and its just business as usual. Christianity does promote mental illness and distorted mentality.
[Edited on 5/30/2008 6:34 AM]
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