| Jan 19 @ 12:09 PM |
CATHOLIC ANNULMENT PROCESS-LOOKING FOR GUIDANCE
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stubby71
Posts: 50
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I am hoping that I can get some advice on the catholic annulment process. Here is some background to start out with:
I am a 36 yo female, never married, no children and baptized catholic. I am dating a 37 yo male, divorced, no children and baptized catholic. He filed for a civil divorce 5 years ago and due to her fighting it, it became legal 3 years ago. He is just now making the last payment to his lawyer and he will then have the papers which is mandatory in order to file for an annulment through the church.
I have done some research on my own and have heard conflicting stories. It is a decision that a given marriage lacked one of the essential elements from the beginning and was therefore not a sacramental marriage. This means the elements were not present BEFORE or AT THE TIME of the ceremony, NOT AFTER. I have heard that annulments have been granted for rediculous reasons/events that happenend AFTER the ceremony. Then I have heard of annulments not being granted for very, very valid reasons. This scares me.
My bf was basically lied to and had no idea that his ex-wife had an arrest record. Nor did he know that she had/has serious depression so basically his consent at the the time of the ceremony was defective. If he would have known these things he would have never given consent. She also converted to the catholic religion to be able to marry him, not to practice the religion as a way of life and therefore, was non-practicing after they got married.
What are his chances of getting an annulment with the information I provided?
I also heard that annulments take up to a year or longer BUT I have also heard of people getting annulments granted only after 9 months. Why the time difference? 
You might think I am being selfish when I say that time is a BIG factor for me. I only see my bf once a week on average and to think that we cannot plan on a future because of the decision of nullity may not come through is stressfull. Which leaves me with close to 2 years of dating a man and falling in love with him to only find out that I will never be able to marry him due to a possible denial from the tribunal. We want to have children as well but might not be an option with me getting older (it also does not help that my mother started menopause in her early 40's). 
If anyone has any advice/guidance I would appreciate it. Also of you know of any catholic/religious message boards I could also confide in would be great 
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| Jan 19 @ 1:21 PM |
CATHOLIC ANNULMENT PROCESS-LOOKING FOR GUIDANCE |
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yashaenka
Posts: 4,639
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I think it will hinge on was the marriage consummated? Yes
Does he have proof that she converted just for marriage not intending to follow the tenants of the Catholic faith, this is very big! Because any religious ceremony loses validity if the premise and intent was built around a lie to God and the church.
The church may want to interview her but will she do that?
The luck of the draw where and who will sit in judgment on what he submits to them may apply. On what basis was he granted a civil divorce and her fighting it is most curious unless property was involved since there were no children. Usually a divorce is granted based on irreconcilable differences.
Are you sure that you know the entire story or just his version?
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| Jan 19 @ 2:11 PM |
CATHOLIC ANNULMENT PROCESS-LOOKING FOR GUIDANCE
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stubby71
Posts: 50
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All I can go by is what he has told me. He, on the other hand, admits that he is human and makes mistakes as well. He had to work 2 jobs during his marriage due to her stealing (a second time mind you...the first time she stole was 14 months BEFORE the marriage and he never knew about it or he would have never gave consent to the marriage). She stole from her place work which, in turn, made her lose her job and she never got another one. This made him have to work 2 jobs in order to make ends meet. He was never home because of this and it did cause stress on the marriage.
So, yes, he has admitted some of his faults BUT with him being a committed catholic, he really wanted to make it work. He thought about the pro's and con's of a civil divorce and now an annulment. For a commited catholic such as himself to file for divorce and now an annulment, all of his options ran out. Even with 2 jobs, he had to file for bankruptcy and lost his house due to her bad spending habits and lieing about the financial issues (her being a thief does not help either).
What I have been investigating on this topic is that the majority of the proof comes from witnesses. Both of his parents and 2 other siblings (committed catholics) are aware of these events. Heck, my bf's mother was involved in the court proceeding of her second theft conviction. He was deceived and it can also be considered fraud. Her lies and deception were in order to obtain his trust and consent to marry. He plans on her not cooperating whatsoever but I am sure most tribunal's expect this.
I am just concerned about the time AND if it is denied, I have wasted precious time on finding a life partner...and I am not a spring chicken!
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| Jan 19 @ 2:27 PM |
CATHOLIC ANNULMENT PROCESS-LOOKING FOR GUIDANCE |
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Loreli
Posts: 20,319
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I would say-get the court documents on her theft/stealing, the divorce, run a background check on her . But why?
You state you are baptized Cathplic, don't say practicing. You state he is a committed Catholic-that which definition escapes me.
Who really wants the anullment?
If they had no children, can't life just move forward as a new couple without incurring even more costs. Unnecessary if you ask me. The marriage is over.
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| Jan 19 @ 10:09 PM |
CATHOLIC ANNULMENT PROCESS-LOOKING FOR GUIDANCE
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SuzieQ1608
Posts: 87
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Please realize that though I am Catholic, I have never been married, so my understanding of the process is limited. I am basing my comments on the experience of Catholic friends who have been married and divorced.
You say your boyfriend is a committed Catholic. Does he belong to a church/parish? If so, he should be able to get appropriate guidance from the priest at his church. Larger parishes sometimes even have lay people who help to guide members through this process. If he doesn't belong to a specific parish, that may be where part of the difficulty is. Do either of your families know anyone who has been through this process with your specific Diocese? Also, you don't say whether or not you plan to be married in the Church. I am assuming so, given that he is going through all of this. You do realize also that the Church requires that you complete pre-Cana counseling, prior to your marriage. That process can take several months to complete, depending on how the the priest feels about your commitment to each other.
Loreli--the marriage may be over in the civil sense. But the Church takes the sacramental promises made during the marriage vows very seriously. You can't get married in the Catholic Church without going through a process, and you can't get divorced without going through a process.
Stubby, as Loreli alluded to, seems like he isn't pushing this along too quickly.
Maybe I'm just reading too much into this....... 
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| Jan 20 @ 1:59 PM |
CATHOLIC ANNULMENT PROCESS-LOOKING FOR GUIDANCE |
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stubby71
Posts: 50
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To answer your questions:
Yes, he is a devoted catholic where he is a member of a parish. He has spoken to his priest and he was told to call the tribunal court to get the 10 page quesionnaire mailed to him. After it is completed, he is to return it to them and if it is accepted, he will then make an appointment to go through the interview process.
I think, in fact, he is moving this along and is taking it seriously. He did inquire about the annulment process 4-5 years ago right when he filed for a civil divorce. You cannot get an annulment without proof of a civil divorce. He will be getting a copy of the divorce papers from his lawyer once he makes his last payment. In the meantime while he is awaiting that to happen, he is going to call the tribunal office on Monday to tell them of his situation and he will be receiving the paperwork.
Yes, I am catholic and belong to a parish but a different one as himself. We live an hour away from each other so we see each other maybe 1-2 times a week. It is not made public in the church of who retained an annulment, therefore, neither one of us know of anyone who went through this process.
Yes, he does want to get married in a catholic church. This is the reason for the annulment. We both want to raise our future family as catholic so it is important that the annulment be granted.
Again, it is hard for both of us. For him to bring up the past AND if it is NOT granted, he can NEVER be married in the catholic faith. As for me, I can but I cannot marry HIM.
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| Jan 20 @ 2:06 PM |
CATHOLIC ANNULMENT PROCESS-LOOKING FOR GUIDANCE
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Loreli
Posts: 20,319
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If the non-practicing Catholic has formally left the Catholic Church, then he is not bound by the requirement to seek permission before entering a marriage with a non-Catholic.
If the Catholic who has formally left the Church marries a non-Catholic who is baptised then I believe that the wayward Catholic coming home to the Church will have to seek a Nullity. This would be similar to two baptized non-Catholics.
If the Catholic is merely non-practicing and has not left the Church by a formal act then this situation is a little different in that canonical form, permission for a mixed marriage, etc. would still be required.
In any event, you need to contact the Marriage Tribunal at the Chancery of your diocese to discuss the details of this to determine whether an petition of Nullity will be needed or not.
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| Jan 20 @ 2:40 PM |
CATHOLIC ANNULMENT PROCESS-LOOKING FOR GUIDANCE |
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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I can't help but be amused at this dilemma. For those who allow their lives to be so intrusively controlled by religion by supposed celibate clergy in such a dark age fashion is ludicrous. This level of catholicism forbids the use of condoms. The very thing that is preventing brainwashed followers in Africa from using that would greatly lessen the horrendous spread of AIDS. Its murder by dogma. I'm somewhat at a loss to figure out what the greater sin is regarding a priest using a condom with a boy or not. Its a tough one to decide. Perhaps this problem can be made less of an issue if those who tell their sins in confession every week were to lighten up on all the juicy details.
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| Jan 20 @ 2:47 PM |
CATHOLIC ANNULMENT PROCESS-LOOKING FOR GUIDANCE
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eastham
Posts: 6,354
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I know several friends who have sought and received annulments. Each have had different experiences, because they were in different diocese. Each tribunal can have varying degrees of experience, etc. Not every parish priest has the expertise to answer every question. Your boyfriend may need to a little homework in his diocese to find the appropriate person to guide him through the process.
I think that your boyfriend's desire to seek an annulment very early on is a testament to how he views his religious practice. Unlike Protestant denominations, Catholics and Orthodox Christians view marriage as one of the seven sacraments. It is equal to baptism and communion. Divorce does not remove you from participation in the sacraments in the Roman Catholic faith, but remarriage without an annulment does.
The fact that your boyfriend sexually consumated a marriage is not relevant. It is certainly relevant in civil annulments (although annulments still can be granted if consumated, just ask Rene Zellweger).
I think the fact that your boyfriend's first wife withheld key information about her past -- ie her arrest record -- is the key.
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| Jan 20 @ 7:28 PM |
CATHOLIC ANNULMENT PROCESS-LOOKING FOR GUIDANCE |
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SuzieQ1608
Posts: 87
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Hammer--
You certainly have as much right as anyone else to post on any forum. But, she is not asking your opinion of her faith. She is asking for help in trying to solve a problem. 
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| Jan 20 @ 7:43 PM |
CATHOLIC ANNULMENT PROCESS-LOOKING FOR GUIDANCE
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BandTMom
Posts: 28,448
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Coming out of self imposed exile for a minute
I understand your dilemma but I have a probem with this:
He will be getting a copy of the divorce papers from his lawyer once he makes his last payment.
You've said this many times, but divorce papers come from the court, not from the lawyer. He can go to the courthouse anytime to get a copy.
This worries me.
back into the hole for me
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| Jan 20 @ 8:01 PM |
CATHOLIC ANNULMENT PROCESS-LOOKING FOR GUIDANCE |
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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SuzieQ1608
The problem is obvious. I stated that in the second sentence.
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| Jan 24 @ 5:55 PM |
CATHOLIC ANNULMENT PROCESS-LOOKING FOR GUIDANCE
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sweetsongs17
Posts: 368
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Good Luck in your Journey
I ll give you the higlights as written by the Metropolitian Tribunal from the Archdiocease of Detroit
1.Contact parish priest for forms
2,Application for annulment. It is a 10 page interview on history of your former marriage. It includes 5 witness, and civil records of marriage and divorce. These are obtained by the courts, not attorneys
3.Submitt application
4. Protocol number issued by Tribunal
5.Reviewed by presiding judge. (Priests and trained religious)
6. Citation Notification of parties on process of annulment and grounds for annullment.
7. The Grounds
a.Simulation This ground focuses on the intentions of the parties at the time they enterd mariage. The Church defines at least three benefits of marriage, which it calls the "goods" marriage. The are children, permanece and maritial fidelity, a further benefit is conjugal life. In our comtemporary culture individual can substitue their own undersanding of marriage for that which the Church teaches. These subjective definitions are often contrary to the church's teaching and can constitute serious error which may impair the parties ability to give valid consent. .......
b.Inability to assume the obligations of marriage. This ground looks at psychological abilityof a person to fufull the obligations of marriage. Evidence of alcohol and or durg abuse PROIR to and during marriage and sever pschological impariment in on of the parites can constitude good evidence for this ground. "They are incapable of contracting marriage who are not capable os assuming the essential obligations of matiriomy due tocauses of psychic nature: (Cannon 1095, 3)
c Defect of Discretions. This ground concerns less serious psychological problems that affected the consent of the parties.....
8. Witness are contacted
9 Formal discussion. and review. The case if reviewed by the Defender of the bond. A judge reviews entire file and renders a decision
I can understand your concern about waiting and wanting to get married in the Church. I am a devout Catholic. But if you got a great guy that you love and want to marry, I would stick it out with him. That is providing that there are no other issues to be concerned with. I personally would love to be remarried in a Catholic church, but that is not a deal breaker for me.
Annulments take time, because of the large volume of requests and the limited number of staff members. All are done in order recieved.
Your BF should have gotton pamplets about the procedure and go over with them with you. I have answered the 10 page questionaire, just a few months ago. If you bf is serious about you, remarriage in the church and ready to remarry he should be able to go through the paperwork. The questions did have to do with, events prior to the marriage. That is a huge and vital factor on determining the grounds of annullment. From what you state, he sounds okay. However, his parish priest should be working with him and talking to him about the Churchs' stance on it. Mine walked me right through what I needed, reviewed all my paperwork and questions.
A majority of annullments requests are granted. Events that occurr after marriage are only used to support the "little red flags" that appeared before marriage. The church recognizes it sometimes takes time for things to manifest.
In the Detroit Archdiocese, annulments aretakng about 10-12 months. The church also requires a 6 month waiting period before they will marry a couple.
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| Jan 25 @ 11:10 AM |
CATHOLIC ANNULMENT PROCESS-LOOKING FOR GUIDANCE |
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stubby71
Posts: 50
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Thank you SWEETSONGS!
Yes, I do believe I can stick it out with him. For there are no other concerns with the exception of the time. I continue to say this because we are no spring chickens and have no children. My mother started menopause in her early 40's. A long annulment process would limit our chances of living up the sacrament which states one of the reasons is for the procreation and education of children. Thats like the catholic church calling the kettle black so to speak
His defense is him possibly (but not definilty) being able to get copies of her police records. If the statute of limitations have been met then her record might have already been expunged. Then the process of using his witnesses comes in.
I am sorry if I seem to be selfish here...I think I speak for both me and my guy when I mention the time issue. If it is DENIED he cannot marry ANYONE in the church. As for me, I can marry but NOT him.
Unlike yourself SWEETSONGS, you'd love to be married in a catholic church but it is not a deal breaker. Well, it would be a dealbreaker for my guy....then comes in the question how long should I stick this out for fairness to me? If it is denied, I wasted time and I have a broken heart because I would not be able to marry this man. 
Oh, another question. The catholic church still sees him as married even though he got a civil divorce. Therefore, if he mentions that he has a girlfriend, is interested in remarrying or that he is in liason with me, will they deny his annulment? Wont they see that as infidelity and adultry on his part and rule on that? His reason is that his consent was defective due to her past arrest record and fraud.
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| Jan 25 @ 3:52 PM |
CATHOLIC ANNULMENT PROCESS-LOOKING FOR GUIDANCE
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sweetsongs17
Posts: 368
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Hi Stubby,
You have asked some great questions. I am in the annulment process myself, after a nearly 20 marriage. The paperwork that I recieved did ask about plans to remarry and if I was currently engaged. A vast majority of annulment cases are started when a couple is considering marriage in the church! It is very common for procedings to start because the thoughts of remarriage are occurring. It is not a consideration for annullment!! According to Canon law, the marriage is considered to be valid until declared otherwise. According to Rome the church was valid and therefore for purposes of remarriage, that person can not be remarried, until the first is declared invalid. The area of dating and not annulled is a gray area. The churchs stance on it, is that a person can date if divorced and not annulled. However, when it comes to premarital sex, the answer is the same whether you are annulled, divorced, single or widowed. The use of frequent confession is of great use.
If your bf has spoke with a priest, the priest should be well versed in what the grounds are and if he had grounds for annullment. Police reports are not essential. Counseling reports are not essential. Honesty and truth in the questions are. It was an huge healing process for me. If your bf stalls on answering the questions and turning them in, be wary. I known many a person who did not want to deal with those questions and used it as a stall tactic to avoid remarriage.
Reflect on what how important it is to you to get married in the church. Certainly, children could be raised in the faith. If his remarriage to you occurred without an annullment, he would be unable to receive communion.
Talk to your own parish priest for guidance and information, but ultimately the choice is yours. Keep praying about it, clarity will come to you
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| Jan 25 @ 6:09 PM |
CATHOLIC ANNULMENT PROCESS-LOOKING FOR GUIDANCE |
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stubby71
Posts: 50
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Thanks SWEETSONGS!
I can happily say he has been very persistent with this. He looked into an annulment a couple years ago but wanted to get his civil divorce done with. He told me that since he has met me, his will to do this has gotten stronger. And, of course, his main reason for the annulment is to remarry and he wants that person to be me. This weekend he is going to be getting all of his paperwork together (divorce paper, marriage certificate, baptismal, etc) so he is ready when the questionnaire comes in. If he needs help I will surely do my best and after he is finished the questionnaire, he is going to see his pastor priest for a final look-over before he sends it to the tribunal. His family is very involved due to knowing about his past relationship and being his witnesses.
I am trying to stay positive about this but he must realize the stress and concern that I am having. It would be a shame with him only being 37 years old, no kids and be declined an annulment to NEVER marry in the catholic church and be able to educate his future children within this religion. Just sad
If he answered on the questionnaire that he is engaged, would that hurt his possibilities or help him? Again, under church law he is still married to his ex-spouse until an annulment is finalized. This is complicated
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| Jan 25 @ 7:45 PM |
CATHOLIC ANNULMENT PROCESS-LOOKING FOR GUIDANCE
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sweetsongs17
Posts: 368
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He is NOT married to his former spouse!! The Church recognizes legal separation and divorce. According to Rome and Cannon law, there WAS a valid marriage until declared otherwise. The issue is not whether he is married or not but is he able to remarry in the Church.
I think it is totally awesome that he is pursing assertively on the annullment.
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| Jan 25 @ 8:16 PM |
CATHOLIC ANNULMENT PROCESS-LOOKING FOR GUIDANCE |
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sweetsongs17
Posts: 368
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Catholics believe marriage is a sacrement before God. A covenant that can not be broke by man. Annulments address whether the marriage (sacrementally) was brought together in that initial covenant. People decide to get married for different reasons, not all brought together by God. Getting married for money, status or convience reasons are not considered to be valid reason to be sacrmentally married even if a couple legally marries. Annulment has no civil effect and is religious in nature.
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