| Mar 28 @ 6:08 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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But knowledgeable awareness is good.
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| Mar 28 @ 6:16 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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BandTMom
Posts: 28,448
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Just a reminder....the Glimpse of the Day that I post are just snippets sent to me each day from Rigpa.com, Sogya Rincophe's web site.
I have read about Guru Yogas but have not gone into depth with it.
KISS works pretty well for me right now with everything I have going on in my life.
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| Mar 28 @ 6:24 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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BandTMom
Posts: 28,448
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 March 28As Buddha himself was passing away, he prophesied that Padmasambhava would be born not long after his death in order to spread the teaching of the Tantras. It was Padmasambhava who established Buddhism in Tibet in the eighth century. For us Tibetans, Padmasambhava, Guru Rinpoche, embodies a cosmic, timeless principle; he is the universal master. I have always turned to Padmasambhava in times of difficulty and crisis, and his blessing and power have never failed me. When I think of him, all my masters are embodied in him. To me he is completely alive at all moments, and the whole universe, at each moment, shines with his beauty, strength, and presence. |
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| Mar 29 @ 11:43 AM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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yashaenka
Posts: 4,639
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But knowledgeable awareness is good. and KISS is very good also.
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| Mar 29 @ 11:44 AM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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BandTMom
Posts: 28,448
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Since I have to "think" a lot with my job, coming to simplicity is a welcome relief. 
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| Mar 29 @ 12:35 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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Nevah known Kiss not to be good.
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| Mar 29 @ 12:36 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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BandTMom
Posts: 28,448
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Yes, Kiss can be very good.
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| Mar 29 @ 3:12 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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BandTMom
Posts: 28,448
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No Glimpse of the Day today.
I think they take Saturdays off.
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| Mar 29 @ 4:06 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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Martin666
Posts: 2,142
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"bliss is a natural state of being.."....uncrazy
Bliss exists as a state, but it is not a natural state of being. If it were a natural state of being, then it is what we --all of us, regardless of spiritual affiliation--would experience as the casual part of our innate human day to day existence, effortlessly and endlessly. That is not the case. What we experience instead as the casual part of our innate human day to day, minute to minute existence are those states arising from ignorance (avijja). These states are collectively known as suffering (dukkha). Suffering is the natural, innate state of being human. All other things being equal, it is what we are born to.
Through practice (training) we can discover the state called bliss, strengthen it, build upon it, utilize it as a tool for increased concentration, but it will not arise naturally in the sense of effortlessly. It is a conditioned state and only arises when the proper preconditions are in place.
In the end, since it is merely a conditioned state, bliss becomes a hindrance and must also be abandoned as one aproaches more profitable conditioned states, and eventually the unconditioned state.
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| Mar 29 @ 4:42 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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Martin666
Posts: 2,142
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"But to realise from Self then we need to use Self and hence conceptualise what you should be doing to understand it. Eventually the Path will dissolve. In time we realise there was no Self, no Path,.... no illusion or delusion."
Congrats! You've finally arrived at at least a part of it!
There is no practice without conceptualization, without the use of conventional concepts to convey conceptual meaning. Practice is grounded in conventional concepts. It is a mistake to see these conventional concepts as being the end states of practice, but it's an equally problematic mistake to say that conventional concepts are useless and counterproductive and should be done away with. Advancing a practice requires finding a wise middle ground between the two. The very notion of practice involves the development of ever higher levels of conventional states leading to the final goal, which is the end of suffering.
The analogy I’ve used many time is to the buddhas simile about the raft: to cross the raging river of samsara, we construct a raft from conventional teachings and use it to cross the flood. Once on the “other side” we get rid of the raft because we no longer have any use for it. The problem is that when people new to Buddhism first hear about this simile, the first thing they think they should do is immediately abandon the raft ( trash conventional concepts as training aids). Never mind that they may be only in mid-stream, or even still standing on the wrong side of the shore trying to figure out how to build a raft. They immediately want to get off, and think that there is some great wisdom in that.
Next: we don’t throw away or get rid of the raft or abandon the raft. These concepts imply a positive will to action on our part. The raft will naturally go away of it’s own accord one conventional concept at a time. The raft’s dissolution is a will-less act, and it’s not possible to sit here now and see the nature of that will-less act because there is not yet the sufficiently skillful state of consciousness present to rise above that act.
Also next: the nature of the conventional concepts used to construct the raft changes as we progress across the flood, so that the raft we arrive at the far shore with is not the same raft we set out in. That’s because the basic conceptual understandings we begin with gradually become more skillfull as we develop them, and that conditions them into something else. Now, it's not even possible to define what the raft will look like at the instant it touches the far shore.
When we speak about “practice,” we speak about conventional concepts. The great "nothingness" or "void" or the "place where all things merge into non-duality" or "sitting and just being" or "seeing the clouds dissolve and reveal the true blue sky" are simply conventional concepts, mundane abstract thoughts that do have some use as training aids but which are eventually as devoid of meaning as is any conventional thought.
It's always amazed me that people who are entirely new to the buddhas teachings latch onto these conventional abstractions and immediately assume --after just a few months of reading about buddhism--that they have experienced the end product of the buddhas teachings and should now grasp onto these abstractions and belittle every other thing that anyone says about anything.
Once a person gives up their dependence on these abstractions, the real mind training necessary for buddhist practice can begin.
[Edited on 3/29/2008 5:06 PM]
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| Mar 29 @ 5:03 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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Martin666
Posts: 2,142
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The beginning point for buddhist practice is the development of skillful moral behavior, skilfull in the sense of thought, word, and deed. The buddha called it "the gradual training." Only through the development of a skillful habit or thought, word, and deed (sila) can the types of profitable states of skilled consciousness be developed that serve as the foundation for progress.
Take everything else and throw it in the garbage can. ESPECIALLY throw in the garbage can the idea of mindfullness. Without moral development, productive mindfullness isn't possible.
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| Mar 29 @ 5:39 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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Yet again Martin you are misleading people.
Take for example:
Take everything else and throw it in the garbage can. ESPECIALLY throw in the garbage can the idea of mindfullness. Without moral development, productive mindfullness isn't possible.
You are hitting against so much of Buddhist teachings due to lack of understanding.
What you are saying is absurd.
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| Mar 29 @ 5:40 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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Again, just going up the list:
Once a person gives up their dependence on these abstractions, the real mind training necessary for buddhist practice can begin.
Nonsense!
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| Mar 29 @ 5:41 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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Blondino
Posts: 4,269
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 mislead me Knotts
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| Mar 29 @ 5:49 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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Martin666
Posts: 2,142
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LOL---
I didn't hear you disagree with my post where I complimented you on your progress, 12, regarding the productive use of conventional concepts as teaching aids---something you have screamed bloody hell and denial about for the last six months. Whatever you're reading is helping you.
I also didn't hear you disagree with the idea of moral training as being the foundation of practice.
As for "mindfulness," what does it mean, anyhow? Mindful of what, and to what end?
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| Mar 29 @ 5:52 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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Okay, just for you Blondy.... 
"Mindfullness"
It doesnt matter about moral development. Mindfullness or shamatha practice is the very basis of meditation. Regardless of your morals as Martin suggests the very practice will defuse any form of negativity.
There is absolutely nothing to throw in the garbage can! Quite the opposite, taking every experience regardless of what it is and being aware of it for what it is brings us to acceptance and generosity.
Becoming open and aware will defuse negativity. Again, simply nothing to throw out. Take it by the horns and view it for what it is.
[Edited on 3/29/2008 5:57 PM]
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| Mar 29 @ 5:57 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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I didn't hear you disagree with my post where I complimented you on your progress, 12, regarding the productive use of conventional concepts as teaching aids---something you have screamed bloody hell and denial about for the last six months. Whatever you're reading is helping you.
Your insults are amusing Martin. All fool you! As the saying goes. Also, you constantly make lies about what I have and have not said. *shrugs.
I get tired of late correcting more and more of your posts Martin. But, alas, someone has to do it 
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| Mar 29 @ 6:07 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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Martin666
Posts: 2,142
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"Mindfullness or shamatha practice is the very basis of meditation"
Mindfulness and samatha meditation ( samatha being a subset of samadhi practice, which is one of the two main types of buddhist meditation, the other being vipassana) are two different things. Being able to discriminate between "mindfullness and samatha may be useful.
For your consideration:
http://www.mahidol.ac.th/budsir/sammasati/contents_sati.htm
Do you have a reference from a master within your own tradition that says that moral development is irrelevant to practice?
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| Mar 29 @ 6:10 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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Okay.... okay.... lets correct this one too...
Once a person gives up their dependence on these abstractions, the real mind training necessary for buddhist practice can begin.
Mind training begins at the very start. There isn't anything considered as "real mind training." Just the observation that all things are transient brings awareness to our present condition. Hence, we begin.
Key term here is "Awareness". The practice begins from the start whether we are aware of it or not.
Martin i think we need to continue correcting your posts before we go any further, if you dont mind. Otherwise it will be misleading to people.
reference your last post:
Mindfulness and samatha meditation ( samatha being a subset of samadhi practice, which is one of the two main types of buddhist meditation, the other being vipassana) are two different things.
Mindfullness meditation IS Shamatha Meditation also known as Calm Abiding. We havent mentioned Vipassana Meditation yet and "Samadhi" is a word in reference to Therevadan Practices.
Being able to discriminate between "mindfullness and samatha may be useful.
Nothing to discriminate.
Do you have a reference from a master within your own tradition that says that moral development is irrelevant to practice?
No one said moral development is irrelevant. *sigh
[Edited on 3/29/2008 6:20 PM]
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| Mar 29 @ 6:16 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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Martin666
Posts: 2,142
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Oh, and regarding the irrelevance of sila (moral development) to practice (as per 12knots), for your consideration:
http://www.dzogchen.org/mandala/dharma.htm
This Dzogchen master not only seems to think that training to the precepts and developing a strong moral foundation is critical for initial practice, he even uses the pali word "sila" to describe it.
But I'm sure he's mistaken.
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