| Mar 22 @ 12:02 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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yashaenka
Posts: 4,478
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In Dzogchen, self-liberation is achieved by discovering or recognizing one's own primordial mindstream and remaining in that natural state of primordial awareness in which all phenomena are experienced without creating karma through reaction, attachment, or conceptual labelling.
Sogyal Rinpoche, Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche and other teachers provide different practical sets of instructions (Sanskrit: sadhana) for the practice of Dzogchen. The central practice of Dzogchen teaching is Dzogchen 'contemplation' (Tib. ting nge 'dzin) which is rendered in English as "The View". "The View" when stabilized or unbroken, is the nondual perception of the Dzogchenpa: that is a continuous 'contemplation' through all activity, waking and sleeping as a lived experience. According to some Dzogchenpa (in particular, Namkhai Norbu), Dzogchen is a 'practice', rather than a 'doctrine' or 'religion', and does not require the practitioner (Sanskrit: sadhaka) to be anywhere special; in fact, to be normally active while in a state of primordial or natural awareness is the ultimate practice of Dzogchen.
This to me is a view of the practice of Zen without Buddhism. continuous 'contemplation' through all activity, waking and sleeping as a lived experience. We can it The Way they call it The View it is simply living in the NOW in everything you do.
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| Mar 22 @ 12:09 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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yashaenka
Posts: 4,478
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DZOGCHEN, CHINESE BUDDHISM AND THE UNIVERSAL MIND
Dzogchen and Chinese Buddhism
The historical origin of the Dzogchen teachings and the relationship of Dzogchen to certain other Buddhist teachings and traditions, such as Yogachara and Ch'an or Zen, has puzzled scholars not only in the West, but in Tibet itself. Some leading Tibetan Lama scholars have accused Dzogchen of being a Chinese Dharma (rgya-nag gi chos), or assert that it is connected with Bon or Advaita Vedanta. Regarding this question in the West for example, W.Y. Evans-Wentz in his pioneering book on Dzogchen, The Tibetan Book of the Great Liberation (1954), writes, "Our present treatise, attributed to Padmasambhava, which expounds the method of realizing the Great Liberation of Nirvana by yogic understanding of the One Mind, appertains to the Doctrine of the Great Perfection of the Dhyana School. Between it and the Treatise on Achieving Pure Consciousness (Ch'eng Wei Shih Lun) upon which the Pure Consciousness Sect of China is based, there is a very close doctrinal relationship. Both treatises alike set forth the doctrine that the only reality is mind or consciousness, and that no living thing has individualized existence, but is fundamentally in eternal and inseparable at-one-ment with the universal All-consciousness."
The Chinese Taoist had been practicing this back in 2,500 BCE in 1,000 BCE some yogic mystics came to China and begin practicing with them as outlined above.
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| Mar 22 @ 12:28 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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BandTMom
Posts: 28,185
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 I question the use of the word "contemplation". There's not a contemplation of anything but rather "mindfulness".
A mindfulness of "just sitting, justing breathing, just being" as in meditation, but mindfulness can be used for anything. I especially like "just driving". 
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| Mar 22 @ 1:53 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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Martin666
Posts: 2,142
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"When this emotion or any emotion or thought arise just experience it freshly just as it is, then it will naturally dissolves by itself - self liberating. It becomes self liberated with no need of any help."
An emotion like anger is like dandelions on the lawn--we feel we've accomplished something if we mow the grass and cut off all their leaves and flowers. And, we have accomplished something! A clean, pristine lawn free of weeds!
...........but then they come back, don't they? They grow back from the hidden roots. Once the anger arises again, we can nip it in the bud and limit how deeply it reverberates through our life, but by then much of the damage is already done: the mere fact that it has arisen by itself generates an additional negative load of kamma in addition to the negative kamma that is already present and serving as the soil from which the anger grows. Even if we shut down all anger that arises within one minute of it arising (quite a feat that, yes?), we still are generating enough new negative kamma to keep us locked in samsara for many lifetimes and we're leaving the underlying kamma (soil) untouched.
Beginning practitioners focus on cutting off the leaves and flowers, and that's a good thing. At some point they have to go after the hidden roots (hetu).
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| Mar 22 @ 2:00 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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Martin666
Posts: 2,142
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"This is why the masters stress that the quality of the atmosphere around us when we die is crucial."
The exterior atmosphere around us when we die is largely irrelevant. Chanting monks or weeping relatives have nothing to do with establishing the quality of our next life. That is determined by the lifelong stream of our kamma. The final instant of this life, the final instant of citta consciousness (cutti-citta) is the inevitable culmination of the lifelong history of debits and credits we've made to our kamma bank account. We can't trick it by having a pleasant conventional thought at the last instant. It's much more complicated than that.
The chanting monks, the moaning relatives, the incense and flowers---these are peasant folk rituals and unrelated to liberation.
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| Mar 22 @ 2:06 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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Martin666
Posts: 2,142
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This to me is a view of the practice of Zen without Buddhism.
continuous 'contemplation' through all activity, waking and sleeping as a lived experience.
This is good, but in and of itself is largely unrelated to liberation.To be continuously aware is simply a state of heightened awareness. Nowhere in any tradition does that awareness itself lead to liberation. The question is always: aware of what? Awareness to what end? I can be hyper-aware and hyper-mindful of performing bad deeds as well as good, for committing wholesome acts of kamma as well as unwholesome acts of kamma. In that case, what good is mindfullness? What's the point?
Mindful of what? Aware of what? To what end?
There are other considerations beyond saying "Oh, it's all so simple."
Define, probe, move to the next level of discrimination...
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| Mar 22 @ 2:25 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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Martin666
Posts: 2,142
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"It is an entire waste of time to start listing all these emotions, thoughts and anything else. Once you recognise the primordial nature of one emotion then you recognise the primordial nature of all emotions."
It may seem that way at first. Take an emotion like anger. At first, a person may not even be aware that they are angry, or even may deny it. We've all seen those kinds! :)
By discriminating a little more finely and letting go of some of their defenses, they may come to be able to recognize anger when it rises. That's a great step forward.
And you know what ? They will then fall in love with that step! They will attach to that step. They will say "This is the wisest, greatest step. This is the culminating step. All steps beyond this are stupid and unnecessary." They love their step, and see final liberation in it.
It's good to discriminate "anger" when it arises when before, perhaps, you could not. It's like walking from a brightly lit room into complete darkness. At first, you see nothing at all--a total black blank. The gradually, you eyes adjust to the lower light, and you can make out the first dim outline of a shape. That is "anger" as a gross object sitting there. Gradually, your eyes adjust even more to the dark, and additional details come into focus: it's anger there, yes--but what else is there with it? Other things---roots, things attached to anger, more and more details come into view. An understanding of "anger" emerges that goes beyond the first dimly perception of it's outlines.
Gradually, you can discriminate more and more finely. Details emerge.
Does anyone here really think that "love" and "anger" are identical on anything other than the grossest, fuzziest level? That they come from the same roots, have the same effects on our kamma? That they are "all the same"? Answer truthfully...and if you still say "they are all the same," then you have obviously become lost in fuzzy and inscrutable abstractions and lost the ability to see things for what they are in the actuality of the present moment.
Let your eyes adjust to the light and at least accept the idea that there may be steps beyond your current one that have value...
[Edited on 3/22/2008 2:40 PM]
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| Mar 22 @ 2:34 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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Martin666
Posts: 2,142
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"I question the use of the word "contemplation". There's not a contemplation of anything but rather "mindfulness""
What is "mindfullness?" Is it simple a state of heightened awareness? If so, then how does that help lead to liberation?
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| Mar 22 @ 8:24 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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Martin, you have lost it, with respect.
Again, once you start all this conceptualising then you have lost the opportunity for liberation, enlightenment.
Buddha-nature, primordial nature, attaining liberation, is to attain through non-conceptualisation, non-duality of nature. Even nirvana and samsara are duality, a conceptualisation. No one will ever get anywhere close to liberation if thinking so.
What is primordial nature? Yes, your emotions of love and anger at its base level is the same. It has the same primordial nature. But what does it matter? It doesnt. Neither does all this having to recognise all these concepts. What is love but a man made concept for an emotion. Our ego nature conceptualising an emotion created by itself ego nature.
What is the state of Buddhahood but the cessation of ego nature and hence all its fabrications, samsaric phenomenas.
All its base nature is primordial nature. Its Buddha nature and hence being aware of one emotion or thought, the realization of it then we have crack it. We dont have to think we have realised one emotion and now on to the next. Remember all things are empty, the emptiness of one is the emptiness of all and this comes from the view of Madhyamaka.
The reality of shunyata or egolessness is the same and in a similar way the nature of mind remains the same whether it is manifesting a passion, aggression or ignorance or in this example love.
All phenomena inluding love and aggression spontaneously appear from the nature of our mind and naturally dissolve back. Again, just being aware of a freshly arising phenomena such as emotion without attaching oneself to it, conceptualising it, giving it reality and solidity will by its own accord dissolve back. One need do nothing more than relax and just be aware.
No method known will dissolve anger other than its own self-liberation. Its own nature. AND this is the KEY..... to rest in the nature of mind, whatever we maybe going through, to rest in the moment.. Nothing more need be done.
Searching and recognising all these emotions and thoughts is fruitless. Simply relax in the pure nakedness of our own experiences. Just watch our mind without getting distracted by all these thoughts and emotions and if we do that then we can recognise the nature of mind, or rigpa. We dont go seeking enlightenment or even think about it. Its already there with us and comes to us even in this one life time.
This isnt just Dzogchen view but also Vajrayana, Mahamudra and others.
Just recognise what is happening, each arising thought and emotion and be very clear about its nature. Once we have realised the nature of anger then we have realised the nature of all. There is a simile that liken to water if we analyse it and consequently come to understand its nature, that is two hydrogen and one oxygen atom then we have come to realise its nature in any form. We dont have to re-analyse every state or condition. Water is the same whether from a tap, in a bottle, in a glass or in a toilet. 
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| Mar 22 @ 8:35 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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BandTMom
Posts: 28,185
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to rest in the moment.
Just sitting, just breathing, just being.
And there's not a smiley to describe that, but  comes close.
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| Mar 23 @ 7:11 AM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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Martin666
Posts: 2,142
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"Just sitting, just breathing, just being."
Can a person just sit, breath, and "be" while consumed with evil intent--can they just sit, breath and "be" with evil itself?
Or is there and assumption that that just sitting, breathing, and being has a good moral component?
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| Mar 23 @ 7:18 AM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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Martin666
Posts: 2,142
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"All phenomena inluding love and aggression spontaneously appear from the nature of our mind and naturally dissolve back"
I thought that all phenomena are conditioned, that is, that they depend for their arising on some previous thing? Buddhism 101, right?
"When this is, that is.
From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
When this isn't, that isn't.
From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that." SN 12
If that's true, then how do emotions and other phenomena "spontaneously appear from the nature of our mind?"
Where do they spontaneously appear from? What previous state are they dependent upon for their arising? What conditions their existence? If their arising is dependent upon some previous thing, then is "spontaneous" the right word to use? Spontaneous sounds so random. Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that they predictably arise dependent on conditions?
OR, IS IT POSSIBLE THAT DZOGCHEN HAS HERETICALLY REFUTED DEPENDENT ORIGINATION!!!! 
And just exactly how is love and anger identical in the present moment? Not in the realm of some inscrutable abstraction like "The Primordial Taco" ( which is really just a conventional concept slathered with mystical icing) but in the actuality of the moment that you are experiencing right now (not that you're thinking about or abstracting)? In the actuality of the present moment?
Think more deeply---investigate more.
[Edited on 3/23/2008 7:49 AM]
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| Mar 23 @ 8:29 AM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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Martin, it is very simple why complicate things?
All things are conditioned within samsara. You are correct to assume all things are conditioned.... to a point. However, all things have primordial nature. This is why so many get stuck in samsara because they think within samsara. Conditioned in samsara. All this cause and effect, all these actions... karma. But to liberate beyond all this then be aware of their nature above it all.
Look at Buddha himself, all Buddhas and how they can remain here without conditions once they attain liberation. Karma cease to be.
Martin, again you fall. No where is it said there is no dependent arising. ALL phenomenas are dependent and not inherently independent and hence they are EMPTINESS.
There is nothing mystical about Dzogchen, the Supreme Way.
Look at your writings and see how one is caught up in all this conceptualisations when it is very simple.
DONT think more deeply and Investigate more!
Learn of course but PRACTICE the basics and all else will come without all the traps. Intellectualisation is the death nail of spirituality.
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| Mar 23 @ 8:53 AM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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Martin666
Posts: 2,142
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"No where is it said there is no dependent arising. ALL phenomenas are dependent and not inherently independent and hence they are EMPTINESS."
Dzogchen recognizes dependent origination? That's new to me. I always thought it was taught to be an illusion.
"In Dzogchen teachings the interdependent origination and any kind of causality is considered illusory: '(One says), "all these (configurations of events and meanings) come about and disappear according to dependent origination." But, like a burnt seed, since a nonexistent (result) does not come about from a nonexistent (cause), cause and effect do not exist. Being obsessed with entities, one's experiencing itself which discriminates each cause and effect, appears as if it were cause and condition.' (from byang chub sems bsgom pa by Mañjusrîmitra. Primordial experience. An Introduction to rDzogs-chen Meditation, pp. 60, 61)"
This corresponds to the assertion in the Heart sutra (Sanskrit: Prajñaparamita Hridaya Sutra), that there is no karma, no law of cause and effect. The assertion was made by bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara in a teaching for the great arhat Shariputra, given before multitude of beings, on request of Buddha Shakyamuni. After the teaching Buddha Shakyamuni greatly praised the wisdom of Avalokiteshvara's words and the beings present rejoiced."
So which is it? Is dependent origination "real", "real to a point" or "illusory"?
Or in some inscrutable way, is it both real and illusory?
[Edited on 3/23/2008 9:01 AM]
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| Mar 23 @ 9:45 AM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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Martin, are you real? Do you exist? Or are you an illusion? Which is it?
Ordinary beings give substance to themselves and all phenomenas They believe in an illusion as being real with respect to that they think phenomenas are independent and exist inherently of themselves as object. When we think we give substance to this by object-subject relationship. Duality of nature and conceptualising an identity to object, subject and relationship. When in fact it isnt real and nothing more than illusion.
You assume I speak of Dzogchen View. That is like assuming everything comes from one sutra or one tantra or anyone particular essay on teachings. This isnt correct. If you do take Dzogchen view then this is good. No where will it state dependent originations is wrong or should not be known. What it does do is raise above this and say get to the heart of the matter. Recognise the nature of phenomena in samsara and even that of nirvana because still we dilly dally in wrong view when thinking of nirvana and what maybe attained.
Dzogchen doesnt waste time analysing everything in Samsara like the simile of water. Once it is understood what water is then no matter what form it appears to us we still realise it is water.
Once ordinary beings have realisation to the nature of mind, liberated their thoughts and emotions at its root nature then no more need be done for them. Their nature, that of true nature of mind has been realised they have been liberated. What more can be done? Your Buddha nature starts to shine forth. You are awakening to your true nature.
After all it is there isnt it? It isnt something to be found. Only YOU as ordinary beings are something that is illusionary and unreal. A dream yet to wake up to true reality.
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| Mar 23 @ 10:14 AM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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BandTMom
Posts: 28,185
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"Just sitting, just breathing, just being."
Can a person just sit, breath, and "be" while consumed with evil intent--can they just sit, breath and "be" with evil itself?
Or is there and assumption that that just sitting, breathing, and being has a good moral component?
I'm answering this without reading further.
Maybe you don't understand that I am talking about Dzogchen meditation? While practicing this one is "just sitting, just breathing, and just being" without any intent at all. Can one sit in meditation with an evil intent? Perhaps, but what's the use?
Dzogchen meditation is one of emptiness and inseparable awareness. It is a luminous innate wakefulness and openness that is as unshakable as a mountain.
Dzogchen is taught as being three parts...view (outlook), meditation (practice), and action or conduct (embodiment in life) which is where your moral code comes in.
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| Mar 23 @ 10:42 AM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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Martin666
Posts: 2,142
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"Ordinary beings give substance to themselves and all phenomenas They believe in an illusion as being real with respect to that they think phenomenas are independent and exist inherently of themselves as object. When we think we give substance to this by object-subject relationship. Duality of nature and conceptualising an identity to object, subject and relationship. When in fact it isnt real and nothing more than illusion."
The present moment--what we see and experience of it (citta) --is most certainly real. It is NOT an illusion. The buddha even gave it's componants the name paramattha dhammas, which means ultimate realities. What is illusory about the present conditioned moment (citta) is that from it we create a "self" called "I," believe that it exists independently, as you say, and that we can discover liberation by following our whims within it. That is what is illusory about conditioned phenomenah. But the phenomenah themselves are very real. Bang your head against a tree real hard and then make an argument supporting the belief that the tree isn't real. The only way to make that argument is to subvert the reality of the tree in the present moment to the needs of an abstract argument that says "the tree isn't real." The buddha always taught the supremecy of a pragmatic actuality over the self-enforcing straightjacket of an abstract concept.
When we think, we only give support to the self-constructed illusion if we view events with Wrong View, that is, through the lens of a permanant self, for example, or that happiness and a release from suffering can be found in conditioned phenomena. But when we view conditioned phenomena with Right View, we see still see, hear, feel and think about conditioned events in a conditioned manner, but we are no longer fooled by the self-constructed illusion of self, permanance, etc., that springs up from ignorance(avijja). At that point, View becomes a path factor even though we are still dealing with conditioned concepts.
Without the existence of conditioned phenomenah, and without our critical examination of those phenomenah to discover how they are not-self, impermanant, and dukkha, we could never attain liberation. Conditioned phenomena are the laboratory leading to liberation. Are conditioned phenomenah themselves a source of liberation? No, of course not. The ladder is not the roof--but try getting on the roof without a ladder.
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| Mar 23 @ 10:52 AM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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Martin666
Posts: 2,142
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"Maybe you don't understand that I am talking about Dzogchen meditation? While practicing this one is "just sitting, just breathing, and just being" without any intent at all. Can one sit in meditation with an evil intent? Perhaps, but what's the use?"
I understand what you mean. In other traditions, it's called "bare awareness" and other things. Yash may come in and make some comments about zen here. Simply sitting and observing, without mental commentary.
Of course, this process doesn't actually exist, but there is a widespread assumption throughout the schools that it's appropriate to posit it's existence as a means for further speculative discussion, and that's fine. I accept that.
So what is the point of this meditation? Or, more specifically, how does it contribute to liberation, specifically?
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| Mar 23 @ 10:59 AM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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BandTMom
Posts: 28,185
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Dzogchen teaches that we are all Buddhas by nature and we only need to awaken to that fact to realize who and what we are.
By "just sitting, just breathing, just being" helps us rid ourself of momentary delusions and confusion to awaken our luminous, primordial, Buddha nature.
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| Mar 23 @ 11:04 AM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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Martin666
Posts: 2,142
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Ok.
And, what momentary delusions and confusions are we ridding ourselves of?
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