| Mar 23 @ 11:16 AM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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BandTMom
Posts: 28,448
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The delusions and confusions of the illusions we have created of what and who we are.
To abandon what is harmful,
To adopt what is wholesome,
To purify the heart and mind:
This is the teaching of the Buddha.
---The Buddha
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| Mar 23 @ 12:06 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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Martin666
Posts: 2,142
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Ok.
So if a person is sitting there in this particular meditative condition and an "object" rises up in the mind, for example, the thought "Muslims are evil," how do we know if that is a harmful phenomena to be abandoned or a helpful phenomena to be adopted?
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| Mar 23 @ 12:18 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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BandTMom
Posts: 28,448
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I think Knotty said it best on page 6.
When this emotion or any emotion or thought arise just experience it freshly just as it is, then it will naturally dissolves by itself - self liberating. It becomes self liberated with no need of any help.
Nothing made it dissolve all by itself neither you, me or us makes it dissolve. No factors in meditation or anything else makes it dissolve. It dissolves into space naturally and this is its primordial nature.
And personally I don't "think" Muslims are evil. 
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| Mar 23 @ 12:33 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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Martin, with respect you are so caught up in your own existence.
The teachings are teaching you to "WAKE UP" yet you argue, analyse and pull apart everything and miss the point when it faces you directly at its source.
You say, "So if a person is sitting there in this particular meditative condition and an "object" rises up in the mind, for example, the thought "Muslims are evil," how do we know if that is a harmful phenomena to be abandoned or a helpful phenomena to be adopted?"
The whole point is that ALL phenomena is blinding you to the absolute reality of your true nature. It isnt the purpose to anaylse your thoughts or what arises to give it substance and solidity, conceptualising it which is causing you the recognition of self, ego. You are basing everything on your conceptualisation of self.
Really, it isnt even the purpose to sit and meditate. Even the act of meditation is holding us back. If you learn to the true meaning of meditation, the act of meditation will dissolve itself as we learn the practice of awareness. Awareness is actually just being, opening us to our true nature. All phenomena is inherently impermanent. By itself it may arise but also will dissolve as is its own reflection.
Without the existence of conditioned phenomenah, and without our critical examination of those phenomenah to discover how they are not-self, impermanant, and dukkha, we could never attain liberation.
 Why examine???? No one says to examine. Just the act of open awareness brings us to liberation. Sitting in awareness of anything that may come up withhold holding on to it and trying to give it substance will not bring it to fruition. Anything arising will naturally dissolve itself. This can be of either Natural Liberation, Naked Liberation, Primordial Liberation and Complete Liberation.
What is Vipashyana but a state of mind that is not distracted. Not distracted by all this conceptualisations. Without all this phenomena we are Liberated. Without all this examination and thinking we SHALL quickly attain Liberation.
Conditioned phenomena are the laboratory leading to liberation. Are conditioned phenomenah themselves a source of liberation? No, of course not. The ladder is not the roof--but try getting on the roof without a ladder.
Absolute Nonsense!
Everything is an opportunity for liberation. One only has to realise their true nature. You are trying to say something exists outside the nature of all and it is impossible. Also trying to say that anything that arises doesnt give opportunity for liberation when everything is telling you that being in the moment is the key to liberation.
Being aware within the moment is all that there is to awakening. Seeing the true nature of nowness.
When we sit at the moment and seeing anything that arises in its freshness, its nakedness without grasping we see it dissolve back to its space. Another simile is like us being an ocean. Our thoughts and emotions arise like a wave on the ocean surface. It will arise and naturally go back. When we sit and be aware of what is happening without clinging we see the surface calm itself. When you start thinking and conceptualising, grasping at everything the surface becomes a storm. Ordinary beings are like storms grasping at self, ego and generating wave after wave and not knowing the true nature of mind. They arent calm to see anything or the beauty of mind.
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| Mar 23 @ 12:38 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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Let me direct this another way...
What is our primordial nature consisting off?
Okay...... we have our intrinsic nature, our Buddha nature untouched, unmarked by anything, it is pure, thats our true nature. But, we dont see this fact. We are in all this samsaric existence, empty appearances of phenomena.
Why are we here? because we are clinging to it and solidifying its appearance.
So, what happens when we stop this clinging? The cause of this mask over our Buddha Nature, we are then in our naked Buddha Nature without grasping at anything, no mask.
What did the Buddha basically do? He sat down and had the idea of thinking "I aint gonna keep living this life until I know the answers and the only way I am gonna do this is sit and do nothing! I aint playing this game of living in this crazy ridiculous world!!!"
Would you agree that is basically what he did? This is basically what all the Buddhas did. They stopped playing this samsaric game. They cease to think of the past, they didnt want to know the future, and they just wanted to be in this moment in this time of their lives and watch what happens if they dont play the game.
They also didnt have volumes of sutras, tantras and anything else at their disposal confusing matters. Armed with basics they simplified and practiced awareness of what is going on around them. Then they began too see what was actually happening to them and came to realisations that set them free.
Its all very well and good having great Buddhists Books, expounding knowledges of this and that but it isnt worth squat!!!! We already know its PRACTICE, practice being in the moment, every moment. Not just for half hour on a meditation cushion and think we are good Buddhists. We bring the practice in every moment of our lives, even in our sleep!!!
Has anyone seen the Buddha with a laptop and Ipod? 
[Edited on 3/23/2008 12:58 PM]
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| Mar 23 @ 12:52 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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BandTMom
Posts: 28,448
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It is the absolute, naked, sky-like purity of the mind.......emptiness.
No fair editing after I have answered.
Its all very well and good having great Buddhists Books, expounding knowledges of this and that but it isnt worth squat!!!! We already know its PRACTICE, practice being in the moment, every moment. Not just for half hour on a meditation cushion and think we are good Buddhists. We bring the practice in every moment of our lives, even in our sleep!!!
[Edited on 3/23/2008 1:11 PM]
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| Mar 23 @ 6:17 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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Martin666
Posts: 2,142
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"I think Knotty said it best on page 6"
When this emotion or any emotion or thought arise just experience it freshly just as it is, then it will naturally dissolves by itself - self liberating."
All conditioned phenomena rise and fall of their own accord, yes. And yes, that is the natural state of conditioned phenomena. And yes, you don't have to "do" anything special to make it go away. It falls of it's own accord whether you are mindful of it or not. That's simple, basic Dependent Origination 101, nothing profound: that it "falls" is not a sign of progress on the path, it's just a characteristic of conditioned phenomena.
Here's what I was trying to get at: the type of passive Mindfulness that you describe is not a Path Factor, that is, it does not contribute to progress on the path. It's an interesting and valuable preparatory exercise, but not one that directly moves a person along the path. What moves a person along the path is called Right Mindfulness. It's one of the Path factors on the Eightfold Noble Path and represents the Fourth Noble Truth.
Right Mindfullness involves an aspect of guarding the attention, of evaluating input for it's truth or falseness. In other words, it is not a passive activity. When the buddha says "to abandon what is harmfull, To adopt what is wholesome," Right Mindfullness is the guardian --the evaluator--that keeps our attention focused on what is wholesome and away from what is harmful. So in the case of the "I hate Muslims" statement, passive mindfullness has us simply observing that object rise and fall away. And then rise again later on. And again. And again.
Right Mindfullness, though, the Mindfullness that is a Path Factor, has us being aware of the object as it arises, of recognizing its unwholesome character, and as a result of that recognition giving us the ability to counter the object in some way, for example, with thoughts of loving kindness directed towards Muslims. We replace the harmful thought with the wholesome thought and train the mind to come to the wholesome thought in the future and not to the harmful thought. This is what the buddha meant when he said:
"To abandon what is harmful,
To adopt what is wholesome,
To purify the heart and mind:
This is the teaching of the Buddha."
It's mind training. Buddhism is active mind training and Right Mindfullness is the guardian at the gate evaluating what is wholesome and what is harmful in our actions, speech, and thought. Read the buddhas action words in the stanza you brought to the discussion: "abandon," "adopt," "purify." These are not words based on passive observation. These are action words denoting a vigorous involvement of the individual with is own liberation.
[Edited on 3/23/2008 6:40 PM]
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| Mar 23 @ 8:28 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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Martin, what you put forth is why sutra seekers will take countless life times to attain liberation whilst others may achieve it within a moment.
Cant you see what you say will only entangle you in samsaric existence instead of letting go?
It is all well and good having wholesome thoughts and doing good. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that but you will not attain liberation. It is impossible when you are so tired up in thoughts and emotions. All that the Buddha had meant was is it is better to do good than not to do good.
Even the worst type of criminal if for a moment recognises his true nature will attain liberation from samsaric existence.
In your mind you will watch what is good and wholesome and throw out what isnt and this WILL NOT bring you to liberation. YOU ARE WRONG. Sorry but there it is.
Why is it wrong? Because as soon as you recognise a thought or emotion and give it some thought as to see if it is wholesome or not you have conceptualised it. Also you have recognised it as object-subject. Your own Self has given itself recognition due to its acknowledgment of being, consciousness through the doorways of mind, body and speech. Not only that you are feeding through your lower consciousnesses to ordinary mind. You are making yourself as Self exist instead of letting go and attaining awakening to true nature of mind.
Again, you will continue guarding and being mindful deciding what is right and wrong when all the time you have missed being in "Awareness." The nature of samsaric existence is transitory, impermanent. If you remain in open awareness you will see all kinds of things arise and you will see them dissolve of their own accord.
And please dont forget even karmic actions will dissolve. Where will your wholesome and unwholsome actions then be?
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| Mar 23 @ 8:41 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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BandTMom
Posts: 28,448
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Dzogchen (the Great Perfection) is considered to be the highest and most definitive path to enlightenment.
Dzogchen practice not only can lead to Awakening in one lifetime, but it opens us to what I call the Ultimate Practice....overwhelming compassion for all living beings which enfolds all steps of the Eight-Fold Pathway
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| Mar 23 @ 8:44 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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Martin, let me clarify what you say, it is good practice. It is excellent practice! Nothing wrong with it, however, one or two points need to be cleared up. The crux of the matter is how we attain liberation. There are many good practices and that is all they are.... "a practice to being good Buddhists."
Some practices are better than others depending on the beings that need them. Some are faster whilst some are slower. Some direct and some indirect.
BUT, liberation will only come when you have given up the practice.
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| Mar 23 @ 8:53 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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Martin666
Posts: 2,142
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Keep at it. At least you have developed enough to try to write out your own ideas rather than just cutting and pasting other peoples ideas, as you were doing before. You deserve some credit for that.
You wrote:
"Why is it wrong? Because as soon as you recognise a thought or emotion and give it some thought as to see if it is wholesome or not you have conceptualised it. Also you have recognised it as object-subject. Your own Self has given itself recognition due to its acknowledgment of being, consciousness through the doorways of mind, body and speech."
Here's the challenge for you: if you can untangle the half-dozen different bits and pieces of ideas that you have all knotted together here in a confusing ball, and straighten out the whole thing, you may arrive at something useful. Here's the key: the object is already conceptualized at the moment it arises; arising IS conceptualization. "Arising" and "conceptualization" are synonyms. So even with "passive" attention, the object is already conceptualized. If it weren't, how would you know it was there to watch it rise and fall?
[Edited on 3/23/2008 9:00 PM]
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| Mar 23 @ 8:55 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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Mom 
This is exact. Rather than worry too much about wholesome and unwholesome actions now it is better to attain liberation immediately... NOW!
Wouldnt we serve others far better attaining liberation for the benefit of all beings than to dilly dally with good and bad thoughts when we are so mixed up in our own self serving samsaric existence?
Because the very nature of true nature of mind, bodhicitta, is pure perfection.
"If the nature of mind is beyond effort, how can one act for the benefit of others?
If you understand self-arising wisdom, beneficient acts arise spontaneously!"
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| Mar 23 @ 8:56 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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Martin666
Posts: 2,142
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"Dzogchen (the Great Perfection) is considered to be the highest and most definitive path to enlightenment.
Dzogchen practice not only can lead to Awakening in one lifetime, but it opens us to what I call the Ultimate Practice....overwhelming compassion for all living beings which enfolds all steps of the Eight-Fold Pathway"
This is a recitation of pure man-made dogma.
You can do better.
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| Mar 23 @ 9:00 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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Keep at it. At least you have developed enough to try to write out your own ideas rather than just cutting and pasting other peoples ideas, as you were doing before. You deserve some credit for that.
I see back to cheap shots Martin. Again, I have never been one for copy and paste and nearly everything I have written comes from me. Yes... me! Of course you have no idea who and what I am. Shame on you.
Martin to your riddle..... what is your true nature? What is there that you have beyond all your thoughts and emotions? What is there in the moment..... "awareness"
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| Mar 23 @ 9:04 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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Martin:
This is a recitation of pure man-made dogma.
You can do better.
You wrote this to mom but I will answer too. Do you realise what you are saying? Do you understand it? Is there something you disagree with because it is okay to disagree to realise the truth beyond concepts. At the moment you have made a statement against primordial teachings that have never been proved wrong by anyone. Absolute no one. It isnt wise trying to argue against countless Realised Masters.
Martin, it is good to debate and argue points in Buddhism and that is what it is about, debating the rights and the wrongs. If at any time I have said anything that is wrong then please give your reasoning. You never know one day I might be wrong 
But please when you are wrong bow graciously! 
Afterall, you are learning at my expense! 
[Edited on 3/23/2008 9:09 PM]
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| Mar 23 @ 9:08 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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BandTMom
Posts: 28,448
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 Martin.
Dzogchen is something I have researched and come to my own conclusions.
The Dalai Lama is a Dzogchen Master, as is Lama Surya Das and Sogyal Rincophe.
If having compassion for all and seeking Awakening in order to help all living beings achieve the same is man-made dogma, then I'm all over it.
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| Mar 23 @ 9:09 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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Martin666
Posts: 2,142
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You wrote:
"Why is it wrong? Because as soon as you recognise a thought or emotion and give it some thought as to see if it is wholesome or not you have conceptualised it. Also you have recognised it as object-subject. Your own Self has given itself recognition due to its acknowledgment of being, consciousness through the doorways of mind, body and speech."
Here's the challenge for you: if you can untangle the half-dozen different bits and pieces of ideas that you have all knotted together here in a confusing ball, and straighten out the whole thing, you may arrive at something useful. Here's the key: the object is already conceptualized at the moment it arises; arising IS conceptualization. "Arising" and "conceptualization" are synonyms. So even with "passive" attention, the object is already conceptualized. If it weren't, how would you know it was there to watch it rise and fall?
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| Mar 23 @ 9:10 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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Martin, again...
Martin to your riddle..... what is your true nature? What is there that you have beyond all your thoughts and emotions? What is there in the moment..... "awareness"
Do you remember what I had said about seeing things in their nakedness in their freshness?
BEFORE you conceptualise it.
Let it rise and dissolve of its own accord. THEN you wont need outer antidotes or inner antidotes or need do nothing....... It will dissolve in the manner of its nature to do so.
[Edited on 3/23/2008 9:16 PM]
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| Mar 23 @ 9:12 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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Or would you prefer a discourse on Vipashyana?..... Clear Seeing.
You need it right now.
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| Mar 23 @ 9:17 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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Martin666
Posts: 2,142
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"Dzogchen is something I have researched and come to my own conclusions."
Ok, fair enough. If a person has researched something and found it to be true or false on it's own terms, then that thing is no longer dogma. It is realized by personal exploration.
You also wrote:
"Dzogchen (the Great Perfection) is considered to be the highest and most definitive path to enlightenment."
Now, the only way that you can know that last statement to be actually true based on your own realized observations is if you actually made an exhaustive study and practice of all the other schools of buddhism and compared them to Dzogchen, and to have mastered all schools through to enlightenment so that you can compare them all and see which is fastest and highest, right?.
You have not done that, I believe it's safe to say?
So to repeat something like this ""Dzogchen (the Great Perfection) is considered to be the highest and most definitive path to enlightenment" is simply a dogmatic recitation. You've been told to think that way, so you do.
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