| Mar 23 @ 9:27 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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BandTMom
Posts: 28,448
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OK....I will modify that.
Many Tibetan Buddhists consider Dzogchen (the Great Perfection) to be the highest and most definitive path to enlightenment, and I agree with them.
Let's not nit-pick, shall we.
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| Mar 23 @ 9:28 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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Now, the only way that you can know that last statement to be actually true based on your own realized observations is if you actually made an exhaustive study and practice of all the other schools of buddhism and compared them to Dzogchen, and to have mastered all schools through to enlightenment so that you can compare them all and see which is fastest and highest, right?.
*cough!
Dzogchen is taught in many Vajrayana and Mahayana Schools. It is a great supplement.
Now Martin, your gracious leader is The Buddha. You come to realise you have a certain amount of faith and confidence in him. Thus far he taught a lot of sense yet he hasnt actually written anything. ALL your knowledges of him come through Masters in lineages.
In the case of Dzogchen Buddhism it has been written by great Masters of the past and living today. We see fine examples. We also can compare anything taught with other schools and thus far nothing has ever been disputed as wrong or inaccurate.
YOU have yet to prove anything wrong thus far compared to any school of Buddhism. So if we award points on a score board there is good reason why ALL schools of Buddhism recognise Dzogchen as the Supreme Path.
It isnt just hearsay but a fact.
Now, there are Buddhas and Bodhisattvas that know better too and by their very nature of all compassionate Beings do you think they are capable of a lie?
Yes, it is for us to realise our way but they point the way for us. Do you think they tell lies and full of self satisfaction that they only have the best way or do you think they are more concerned with teaching compassion and wisdom?
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| Mar 23 @ 9:30 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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BandTMom
Posts: 28,448
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Yes, it is for us to realise our way but they point the way for us. Do you think they tell lies and full of self satisfaction that they only have the best way or do you think they are more concerned with teaching compassion and wisdom?
Compassion and wisdom win every time.
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| Mar 23 @ 9:36 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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Martin666
Posts: 2,142
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"Many Tibetan Buddhists consider Dzogchen (the Great Perfection) to be the highest and most definitive path to enlightenment, and I agree with them."
LOL. You didn't change anything by rewording the sentence. Your agreement is still based on a dogmatic acceptance of what they say, and not on your own personal experience. And for that matter, how do they know what they say is true? How many Tibetan masters have achieved enlightenment through all the the vehicles of all the other schools of buddhism as well as Dzogchen and therefore earned the right to make an actual comparison?
Quick answer: None. Zero. Zilch.
Think critically. Accept nothing based on the authority of a teacher alone.
""So, as I said, Kalamas: 'Don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, "This contemplative is our teacher." When you know for yourselves that, "These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering" β then you should abandon them.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said.
"Now, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness' β then you should enter & remain in them." AN 3.65 Kalama Sutta
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| Mar 23 @ 9:42 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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BandTMom
Posts: 28,448
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Let's not nit-pick, shall we.
I researched it, I accept it, and that's all that matters......to me.
Nuff said.
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| Mar 23 @ 9:42 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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BandTMom
Posts: 28,448
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Now for the Glimpse of the Day.
March 23
The master is like a great ship for beings to cross the perilous ocean of existence, an unerring captain who guides them to the dry land of liberation, a rain that extinguishes the fire of the passions, a bright sun and moon that dispel the darkness of ignorance, a firm ground that can bear the weight of both good and bad, a wish-fulfilling tree that bestows temporal happiness and ultimate bliss, a treasury of vast and deep instructions, a wish-fulfilling jewel granting all the qualities of realization, a father and a mother giving their love equally to all sentient beings, a great river of compassion, a mountain rising above worldly concerns unshaken by the winds of emotions, and a great cloud filled with rain to soothe the torments of the passions.
βIn brief, he is the equal of all the buddhas. To make any connection with him, whether through seeing him, hearing his voice, remembering him, or being touched by his hand, will lead us toward liberation. To have full confidence in him is the sure way to progress toward enlightenment. The warmth of his wisdom and compassion will melt the core of our being and release the gold of the buddha-nature within.β
DILGO KHYENTSE RINPOCHE
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| Mar 23 @ 9:43 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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Martin:
How many Tibetan masters have achieved enlightenment through all the the vehicles of all the other schools of buddhism as well as Dzogchen and therefore earned the right to make an actual comparison?
Quick answer: None. Zero. Zilch.
Again you write absolute nonsense. This again goes to show your lack of understanding and knowledges.
There have been countless Buddhas and living Buddhas today. In fact there was one Monk on a documentary on the Smithsonian Channel a few weeks ago, the 23rd reincarnation of a disciple of Buddha himself too. A true realised Being. A Buddha and why not!
Why would there not be buddhas here amongst us? What would the teaching before if not? Would be a total waste of time otherwise, right?
*sigh
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| Mar 23 @ 9:46 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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Oh, please let me add.....
Awakening although can come instantaneously, it is often coming to us gradually just like the clouds disperse in the sky.
There are countless Beings at many different stages of the path. Some more realised than others 
Mom.... excellent Glimpse of the Day.... dont they come so "timely"
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| Mar 23 @ 9:53 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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Martin666
Posts: 2,142
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"I researched it, I accept it, and that's all that matters......to me."
Personally, I've always been more afraid of complacency than I have been of being spectacularly wrong.
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| Mar 23 @ 9:54 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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BandTMom
Posts: 28,448
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Don't they, Knotty. It's almost like Sogyal Rinpoche (or his staff) knows what we are discussing.
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| Mar 23 @ 9:57 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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Martin... Something you will have to let go either way.
Mom.... it could be karma....
[Edited on 3/23/2008 9:58 PM]
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| Mar 23 @ 9:57 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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BandTMom
Posts: 28,448
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It's called contentment rather than complacency.
I practice therefore I am.
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| Mar 23 @ 10:06 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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I practice therefore I am.
Hey.... thats pretty cool....
I practice therefor I am!
Forget the darn practice!
Actually, what is practice? It isnt just meditation but our learning too. Even all the rights and wrongs of it. Even thinking about the idea of "Muslims being evil" as an arising thought often times the ordinary being will take this further and further. Thought after thought. This is where Martins expounded methodology comes in use. A tool in the practice of Mind Training. Nothing wrong with this and one of the best Mind Training is Lojong Practices.
However, lets not forget its excellent to do good and practice good and getting nearer to our true nature but the path to liberation is not in this samsaric existence and all that it entails including the practice.
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| Mar 23 @ 10:20 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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BandTMom
Posts: 28,448
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However, lets not forget its excellent to do good and practice good and getting nearer to our true nature but the path to liberation is not in this samsaric existence and all that it entails including the practice.
But the practice....not attachment to the practice....will get us out of the Wheel of Samsara.
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| Mar 23 @ 10:23 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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Awareness
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| Mar 24 @ 11:41 AM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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Martin666
Posts: 2,142
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Because it deals with oftentimes intangible concepts, any type of spiritual quest runs a constant risk of degenerating into mere dogmatic acceptance of rites, rituals, and beliefs. These RRB's are often added-on to the existing practice structure by man himself, to meet his own needs, and have nothing to do with the underlying original practice. This is as true with buddhism as it is with christianity. Much of it is done to salve mans ego, to support his need for authority and control, and to place himself above other people in some imagined spiritual hierarchy. In other words: ignorance, a preoccupation with a non-existent ego, and entanglement in the conventional world.
We love the predictability of routines, and even more we love the contentment of superstitions that salve our egos and give explainable structure to a scary world, and even make us feel superior to others. Buddhism, in all it's schools, is rife with man made superstitious add-ons to the buddhas teachings. This is as true with theravada as it is with mahayana and the tibetan derivatives. The world is filled with buddhist peasants and marginally literate monks who think the buddha is a supernatural being who can be prayed to and affect the course of our life here on earth, and that "priests" have the keys to enlightenment.
In fact, it might be true to say that buddhism as a whole has deteriorated further from it's original practice than christianity has deteriorated from its. Christianity, at least, is avowedly superstitious with it's beliefs about prayer and supernatural spirits: at least it's practice is consistent with its actual belief structure. But Buddhism--which is supposed to be above superstition and magical thinking--is awash in it, in all its glaring inconsistencies.
And you know what? Nobody cares! In their search for McEnlightenment,people are content and even complacent with simplistic answers that salve their egos and make them feel good and even superior to others, so long as they can get what they want FAST!. Even when they know that a belief is unsupportable and even directly controvertable, they oftentimes choose to believe it anyhow just because doing so makes them feel good or superior, or serves some other ego-driven need on their part.
This curious phenomena has a wonderful name in the old scriptures:"sloth and torpor," referring to mental dullness and physical heaviness. The two are intertwined and dependent on each other, grow out of one another. It's one of the five hindrances to progress identified by the buddha. It's counterbalance is called viriya, which is a persistant, energetic effort to penetrate the practice. And part of that penetration is dependent on weeding out the ego-driven beliefs that only hinder actual progress.
[Edited on 3/24/2008 12:38 PM]
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| Mar 24 @ 11:52 AM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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Martin666
Posts: 2,142
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"But the practice....not attachment to the practice....will get us out of the Wheel of Samsara."
Why "practice" at all? I thought the whole idea was to just simply sit and "be?" Doesn't "practice" just get in the way of sitting and being? 12 laughs at people who practice.
What does "practice" mean, anyhow? Does it have steps, stages?
Hmmm...a real puzzler. If you say, "No, there are no steps or stages because simply sitting and being is sufficient to become enlightened, and building in conceptual steps and stages is counterproducive to that process," then you are saying that there is no need for methodical practice based on conventional concepts, which contradicts your statement above that practice is the key to liberation.
On the other hand, if you truly believe that practice is the key to liberation--as you said above--then such an active approach waters down the usefulness of just "sitting and being," which numerous times here on these threads has been described (not by me!) as being sufficient unto itself.
Yikes! What a pickle!
[Edited on 3/24/2008 12:06 PM]
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| Mar 24 @ 9:22 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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BandTMom
Posts: 28,448
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Martin,
I have a deep respect for all the major schools of Buddhism. I have a deep respect for most "religions"....the ones that teach love, compassion, and seeking wisdom.
I came her to learn and now that I have learned enough to actually participate intelligently in the discussions.
However, I am not here to banter and "hee hee haw haw" over what others have found to be truth.
Try reading a few books by Lama Das. Try reading The Tibetan book of Living and Dying by Sogyal Rincophe. Then read them again and maybe research some of what they are saying.
Then maybe you will understand what I am talking about.
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| Mar 24 @ 9:44 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,539
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Practice, or sitting and being...somedays while walking around I will notice my breath 20 times and ride with it...0nce I painted a house and to this day I don't remember touching the brush to the side wall. That day I was only watching my breath and chanting O nam myoho renge kyo.
Maybe someday I'll paint a house without a memory of crawling up and down the scaffold between moves. Still working on the ball of light, vassals of the Gods, and the workings of my mind.
One teacher told me that all states of consciousness are available to me at all times, I just must willingly choose them...my rules against comfort and pleasure block me here since bliss is a natural state of being..
Namaste'
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| Mar 24 @ 9:45 PM |
Buddhism - A New Beginning |
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BandTMom
Posts: 28,448
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bliss is a natural state of being.
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