| Mar 6 @ 4:36 PM |
On Men and God ll
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,445
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I wanted to revive two ideas I offered in kjac's ariginal thread...some noted they wanted to ponder before returning with a response.
Themes found in the OT are recurrent through pre-flood times and three Egyptian periods include some of the following.
#1
Katt,
Your mention of the book "Christ out of Egypt" in the "christ-like thread reminded me of Hosea, who declared Yahweh calls his son out of Egypt. An immense amount of material is available to study this passage as a stand alone prophesy and with Matthews links to Hosea. It also reminded me of the holographic nature of the first five books of the OT and how the themes it weaves are overlaid on one-another as we pass through 3000 years of history preceeding Jesus. I have a continuing sense that the repeating themes of the epic cycles in the Pentatuach might still be repeating and that Isreal "Prince of God" may be called again out of Egypt. And Ishmeal (People of God) have a part in this that we can not yet discern
#2
Exile, bondage, great wars, destruction of temples, exodus, famine, drought cycles, death of first borns, expectation of saviors, loss of birthrights, combining multiple gods into one to create single gods, favor of the Lord, messengers of god, angels of the lord, covenants between God and people, shifts of kingship, sheperds.
since these themes were recurrent prophets and priests could remind the people of what was going to happen next in their time or what was expected in the next repeat of the cycle.
Later writers might have lost the skill to write in a holographic form, and could at best only bring some of the prophecies forward to explain what was happenning then.
For example Abraham's departure from Ur could be seen as an exodus and could have been the result of a food famine or a famine within his personal fortunes. The god that Abraham and of those that traveled with him was likely replaced in Ur by the rise of Marduk-Re at the time. So much history is now available due to the web and it has the great potential to enrich our understanding of what was saved in the OT.
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| Mar 27 @ 9:04 PM |
On Men and God ll |
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,445
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In another thread was mentioned an older thread on name in the OT and literature found in the lands around Egypt. Yes we can form sentences using the meanings of names on lists, but we can also use the meanings to gather hints about the roles they were given.
One such name is Senemioh...he benefited from the covenant that God made with Abraham. He was buried in the theban tombs and his alternate name was Ishmeal, son of Hagar and Abraham. He was the recorder of the grain in Egypt and was also named a temple priest. Men named priest carried royal blood and were not deemed holy in the modern sense of the word, and often ended up a visier, king, even pharoah.
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| Mar 27 @ 9:21 PM |
On Men and God ll
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kattsmeow
Posts: 20,812
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This is very interesting stuff. Makes me think. 
I am going to read the book of Hosea before I try to think about this.
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| Mar 28 @ 11:42 AM |
On Men and God ll |
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kattsmeow
Posts: 20,812
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Both Jewish and Islamic traditions consider Ishmael as the ancestor of Arab people. According to the Muslim tradition, Muhammad was a descendant of Ishmael through his son Kedar
I found that very interesting. Some people ( Muslims) consider him to be the first born of Abraham.
Then again the Jews, or Christians consider Isaac to be the first born.
Now, in reading about this, can we consider this is when the 2 nations split?
I have a continuing sense that the repeating themes of the epic cycles in the Pentatuach might still be repeating and that Isreal "Prince of God" may be called again out of Egypt. And Ishmeal (People of God) have a part in this that we can not yet discern
I see this as the endless struggle between the 2 sons,,carrying on till today.
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| Mar 28 @ 1:38 PM |
On Men and God ll
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,445
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Katt,
By birth position, Ishmeal should have received the royal succession, but conflicts often arose between the line of sons that came out of different mothers or even the same mother when a second son succeeded instead of the first. I'm also confident that text exists that shows the genetic line of Ishmeal. We are familiar with the line of Isaac because Judaism and Christianity are based on the history of that line.
Since the Muslims still hold to the God of Abraham it is possible that the bloodlines of Isaac and Ishmeal rejoined later, as did the bloodlines of Jacob and Esau reconverge later. My readings show that there was no animosity between the half brothers. I believe both the Torah and the Koran refer to the two of them burying their father Abraham. An interesting note Ishmeal is buried in Theban tomb TT127,..mummification was reserved for the royals and very wealthy...naturally this all flies in the face that these guys were lowly sheperds., but that symbolism has a different root in the epic cycles.
Good question on an interesting thought, the conflicts within single bloodlines was common. The war of 4 kings against 5 was likely Abraham and his exodus group against his relatives lead by Abraham's grandfather who upsurped the kingship from his son Terah in Ur. Once in Egypt Terah guided the line that produced Isaac and Ishmeal. And even though the bible records the death of Terah in Haran, it is likely the death of his personal fortunes in Babylon. He never regained his throne in UR. Terah is seen in Egypt under the names Apophis l, Tao l, and Senakhtenre
Biblical Names: Jehiel, Jesse, Shua, Shinab Abiel, Jeiel, Job
Joash, Ner, Tou/Toi
Babylion: Samsu-ditana
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| Mar 28 @ 10:39 PM |
On Men and God ll |
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Angel54214
Posts: 13,146
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Since the Muslims still hold to the God of Abraham it is possible that the bloodlines of Isaac and Ishmeal rejoined later,
I find it interesting on Ishmael...His Father Abraham a Chaldean and his Mother Hagar, an Egyptian. God said Ishmael would become a great Nation:
Gen. 17:
20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
The Twelve Princes begotten of Ishmael:
Gen. 25:
13 And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam,
14 And Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa,
15 Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah:
16 These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations.
17 And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, an hundred and thirty and seven years: and he gave up the ghost and died; and was gathered unto his people.
18 And they dwelt from Havilah unto Shur, that is before Egypt, as thou goest toward Assyria: and he died in the presence of all his brethren. Thus the land became the Arabia Deserta; The Thimaneans, Hagarites, (were also called the Ishmaelites), Temanites, (Job's friend Eliphaz was a Temanite; see Job 2:11), and also the Nubaeans.
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| Mar 31 @ 1:26 AM |
On Men and God ll
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,445
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Angel54,
I moved to this thread since this part of the discussion is not about spoiled children.
On Edom I found an interesting note on Herod the Great, born in 73BC to an Idumeaen father named Antipater and a daughter of an Arabian sheik named Cyprus. It seems that some Edomites survived to become the Herodian line.
It was also likely that the Herodians were Jewish, but because they were Idumeaens/Edomites they were considered racially impure plus Herods mother was an Arab.
Racial purity, especially when used with ideas about service to God, become extremely toxic to civilizations in any era.
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| Mar 31 @ 4:05 PM |
On Men and God ll |
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Angel54214
Posts: 13,146
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Edom is not a bloodline race. Esau's "name" was changed by God to Edom:
Gen. 25:30
and Esau said to Jacob, "Please let me have a swallow of that red stuff there, for I am famished." Therefore his name was called Edom.
Gen. 36:8
So Esau lived in the hill country of Seir; Esau is Edom.
Gen. 36:43
Chief Magdiel, chief Iram. These are the chiefs of Edom (that is, Esau, the father of the Edomites), according to their habitations in the land of their possession.
Esau was Jacob's twin...they were both Israelites and Hebrews.
The "land" of Edom became desolate; the Edomites famished and left that "Nation."
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| Mar 31 @ 5:22 PM |
On Men and God ll
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,445
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Angel54,
Edom is not a bloodline race. Esau's "name" was changed by God to Edom:
You are likelt correct on this...the text in the article on Herod the Great made the refernce. The edomite were likely at most a clan or tribe.
The red reference was not only to the clay color, but Esau was said to have been ruddy red and covered in hair when born.
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| Mar 31 @ 9:47 PM |
On Men and God ll |
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Angel54214
Posts: 13,146
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Very true uncrazy, but from another observation of scripture, we have a clue...
Gen. 25:
20 And Isaac was forty years old when he took Rebekah to wife, the daughter of Bethuel the Syrian of Padanaram, the sister to Laban the Syrian.
21 And Isaac intreated the LORD for his wife, because she was barren: and the LORD was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived.
22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.
23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
24 And when her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb.
25 And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment; and they called his name Esau.
Rebekah was Syrian, but I don't know where the red hair came from do you?
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| Mar 31 @ 10:01 PM |
On Men and God ll
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,445
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Angel54
Rebekah was Syrian, but I don't know where the red hair came from do you?
It is curious...it is important and odd from what would have been expected, and has significance because it was so emphasized in the story. Stark differnces make the story details...other births don't pont out the hair was black which was the likely norm.
The color does link to the clay of the region, it might be suggesting that even though the mother was syrian, the color suggests a close link with the land, but what is being implied is not clear.
I will look on.
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| Apr 10 @ 11:48 AM |
On Men and God ll |
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,445
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The common thread,...,is the sun,moon,stars and other natural phenomena that can be seen all over the globe.Combine that with man's need to anthropomorphize everything,his need to govern himself and put order in a chaotic world that he didn't understand and it's very easy to see how religion can develop and have the common interests of morality,"salvation" and a messianic event.
Just adding info from Goose & Thor for source symbols common threads in stories about man's relationship to his Gods. Planetary objects are not really symbols until man puts words on them so that they are representations of his thoughts. Much like looking in a mirror...I think I'm a body...the dictionary says a mirror reflects back what I place in front of it...I have the first hint that I might only be a reflection...and my mind filling in the details of illusion and dilusion.
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| Apr 10 @ 1:34 PM |
On Men and God ll
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,445
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Katt,
Information I've found on the wife of Cain includes
A Nodite woman named Rowana
In Kish/Cush out of the Sumerian she was called Awan/Luluwa
and Luluwa wa the daughter of Lilith and Enki in the Annunaki annals.
People often were recorded under different names dependent on who was writing, and what role they played in the drama.
The fact that these names were ever recorded at all suggests royalty or primary lineal decent.
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| Apr 10 @ 5:26 PM |
On Men and God ll |
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kattsmeow
Posts: 20,812
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I do know in the Bible he found a wife in the land of Nod.
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| Apr 10 @ 5:52 PM |
On Men and God ll
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loisday
Posts: 1,338
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Thank you all................this is so good!!!!
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| Apr 10 @ 6:04 PM |
On Men and God ll |
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kattsmeow
Posts: 20,812
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This is something that many people wonder. I even asked a minster about it and he respectively told me he didn't know.
I had to give him credit for that instead of telling me something that isn't true.
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| Apr 11 @ 12:41 AM |
On Men and God ll
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Angel54214
Posts: 13,146
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I do know in the Bible he found a wife in the land of Nod.
Your post Katt got me thinking...
Gen. 4:
1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived
17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived We know God blessed Adam and Even and told them to go and multiply...
Gen. 1:
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply My observation is God's spiritual marriage matramony was his blessings and two become as one flesh. When Eve gave birth to Cain, she said:
"I have gotten a man from the LORD."
God had driven Adam out of Eden:
Gen. 3:
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden. (Eve is not mentioned as being driven out, but surely she followed Adam).
Cain was driven out of Eden by God also:
Gen. 4:
14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid And Cain also, like Adam went east of Eden:
16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. Cain's wife is not mentioned, just as Eve was not mentioned.
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| Apr 12 @ 4:15 PM |
On Men and God ll |
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hunt4luv
Posts: 1,234
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Cain wasn't born in Eden angel
It is pretty certain both Adam and Eve were driven from the garden since she became pregnant after man was separated from the tree of life. Her punishment was that her desire would be to the man, and also that of the pain of childbirth.
In scripture as I am sure you have noticed only woman of key roles are mentioned. Or those of renowned position. Notice also the price of man listening to
the woman's advice that Disagreed with Gods Direction. Adam was punished for listening to the woman. Abraham brought a price for listening to Sarah when she offered hag er, that price hangs over Israel To this day. The serpent came to the woman the woman to the man. Yet the man had been given his instruction by God. There is a price for allowing ourselves to be persuaded to step off the Path we have been given to follow.
Ishmael was the result of Man not trusting in God and trying to do things himself. A lack of belief after many years of waiting for the promise brought about the Birth of the greatest enemy the children of Israel have ever had. They lifted up a man as God in Mohammad and Islam was born.
If Abraham and Sarah would have Trusted and waited this dark reflection of Israel would not have come to be.
Notice once the true son was born That which was not meant to be was cast out of the camp. He was not to have a portion in the birthright. He was born of unbelief./Impatient if you will
Amman and Mo ab came from the daughters of Job
Ed om was a great nation and was born of Esau remember they would not allow the children of Israel to cross their lands.
Whatever God has Made known as his will tends to have a mirror image such as Ishmael and Mohammad --- Jacobs sons/Ishmael's sons only one represents Gods true path the other Darkness/ self.
Just as Cain and able reflect opposite sides of the coin.
Cains sacrifice was of the sweat of his brow taken from the earth that had been chosen over the creator.
Ables sacrifice was that of a shepherd. One who tends and cares for protects and loves brought his first fruits to God. He brought life to God for life is in the blood.
so you see once again it comes down to doing things Gods way Or our Way.
our way has created the sorrow that the world lives in today.
There is much analogy and metaphor in scripture Christ himself spoke in parables.
The Choice is always before us between Gods way or doing things mans way.
CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY
[Edited on 4/12/2008 4:37 PM]
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| Apr 12 @ 5:04 PM |
On Men and God ll
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,445
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The other day it was mentioned that the Golden Sutra was held in a British museum. The museum also holds writings from an Egyption named Amenemope. It stated that verse after verse of the OT Proverbs can be attributed to this Egyptian original.
These came even from older work called the Wisdom of Ptah-hotep from 2000 years before Solomon. The hebrew scribes just attributed it to Solomon.
It is thought that the hebres did not develop writing skills before 1200BC, and the first writing of the Pentatuach did not occur befor 900BC.
I don't care that the scribes failed in attribution to the wrong author, copyrighting was in its infancy...but it appears they had access to the older works before they were lost in the sand, or at least it was clearly part of their oral traditions and stories.
This papyrus is 4400 years old, from the VI Egyptian dynasty...reading it I can recognize ideas found in both eastern and occidental philosophies and religions.
[Edited on 4/12/2008 5:12 PM]
[Edited on 4/12/2008 5:13 PM]
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| Apr 12 @ 5:39 PM |
On Men and God ll |
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Angel54214
Posts: 13,146
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Ishmael was the result of Man not trusting in God and trying to do things himself. A lack of belief after many years of waiting for the promise brought about the Birth of the greatest enemy the children of Israel have ever had.
Hunt, I stand to agree in disagreement on your statement. And here is why:
Gen. 17:
1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.
16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?
18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
22 And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.
23 And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham’s house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.
24 And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
26 In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son.
27 And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him. When you read this chapter Hunt, you see that Ishmael was blessed with the circumcised covenant by God. Ishmael was also blessed by God to be a great nation and 12 "princes" will he begat.
Isaac was not born yet for Sarah was barren...But God foretold his promise that Isaac would also be blessed and multiply to become many nations and Kings. For God blessed Sarah and through her she would be a Mother of Nations.
Ishmael was blessed, but God's covenant was not an everlasting covenant in his seed.
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