| Apr 17 @ 3:02 AM |
On Men and God ll
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SunBabe
Posts: 12,251
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Aw shoot, I clicked on that link and expected to see some cool weirdo pics! 
You were just picking on the pointy head mod, weren't you, Angel? 
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| Apr 17 @ 9:40 AM |
On Men and God ll |
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Angel54214
Posts: 14,074
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Sunny! Your got the "point"!!! 
Guess the Mod didn't come back after that  
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| Apr 17 @ 1:04 PM |
On Men and God ll
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,539
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Angel54,
I have come upon an idea stated by different authors that talk about a "compositional strategy" in the writings of the old and new testaments.
I find the idea intriguing...really nothing can be written without the outline and movement to the purpose of conveying details that support the grand theme.
Have you seen references to this idea? An example could be bringing the OT down the genial line from Seth. Or how perfectly the flood story restarts the line when it eliminates all others.
The strategy can even be implemented during translations...for example the vulgate bible used the term El Shaddai (Lord of the Mountain) over 40 times, but when translate to english versions "almighty" was substituted. This name for God was used in both Abraham's and Mose's day. El Elyon was the name used by Melchizedek.
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| Apr 17 @ 4:45 PM |
On Men and God ll |
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,539
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Angel54.
[QUOTE Hebrew translation:
]Exod. 6:
and I am appearing to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob in EL who suffices and name of me Yahweh, not I was known to them. [/quote]
I moved this so I would not lose your note in the 33 pages of that thread.
I would so like to read a direct Hebrew/English or Aramaic/English translation of the first five OT books. This translation also makes me think again of Jasher. My understanding, it didn't make the canon because it tells a slightly different story about Moses, Mariam, and the receipt of the commandments.
Even though Jasher preceded the OT books that referenced it later, it was excluded from the canon of the OT.
Exculsions of pre-existent source material to force support of a selected view of history could show a compositional strategy by the writers.
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| Apr 17 @ 10:17 PM |
On Men and God ll
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Angel54214
Posts: 14,074
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Thanks Uncrazy for copy/past of the Gen. 6 scripture.
El(yown) Hebrew; translated in English is God of Most High. The Greek writing of Elyon/Elyown is ho theos hupsistos (the god most high).
EL is a "compound" word; the words proceeding EL is part of the compound unity of EL. Like EL (God) proceeds the almighty e.i. the most high.
Then we have Adonai (plural) and Adon (singular), meaning Lord or Master. Greek kurios. Adonai is the proverbial parallel word to Yahweh (parallels Jehovah), or YHWH as the tetragrammaton . Adon is used when referencing to a human Lord such as David.
There's lots more compounds thus usage of Jehovah such as Jehovah Nissi, Jehovah Rapha and Jehovah Raah to name just a few. I remember all this in Judaism studies.
Kinda leaves the heart of stone to replace the heart of flesh when anaylizing our creator's names(s).
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| Apr 17 @ 10:39 PM |
On Men and God ll |
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,539
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Angel54,
I thought I was moving your translation of Exodus 6...you thank me for too much.
Keying in Exodus 6 on google ...the 3rd linked used by the Lord was he not known...the 4th link used by Jehovah was he not known...
It is easy to see why discussions even about the names of God are difficult.
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| Apr 18 @ 12:27 AM |
On Men and God ll
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kattsmeow
Posts: 21,280
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I love using the name " Most High" 
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| Apr 20 @ 12:26 PM |
On Men and God ll |
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Angel54214
Posts: 14,074
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Even though Jasher preceded the OT books that referenced it later, it was excluded from the canon of the OT.
From what I have learned of Jewish Doctors, that the book of Jasher was a one separate book journal that they wrote specific important events in. It was kept only by the council. Later became lost during the Philistine war captivity and destruction. It was supposively kept with the book of law along with the book of ordinances as well as the budded staff and jar of manna in the Holy of Holies Ark.
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| Apr 20 @ 7:51 PM |
On Men and God ll
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Angel54214
Posts: 14,074
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Uncrazy....another interesting observation in the leaves of Amos; God had previously called out others to be nations and he was their God:
Amos 9:
7 Are ye not as children of the Ethiopians unto me, O children of Israel? saith the LORD. Have not I brought up Israel out of the land of Egypt? and the Philistines (sons of Ham), from Caphtor, and the Syrians from Kir?
History unfolds much on these other 2 nations of peoples; they were also taken in captivity as servants and are connected to Egypt. The Philistines from the Island of Caphtor (Cyprus) were captives there possibly by those that the Egyptians called the "Sea People."
The Syrians were captives in the land of Kir exiled by King Tiglathpileser of Kush. Them being the descendants of Aram, son of Shem that were beyond the Euphrates. There is an ancient story of the Dinga's how there was a parting of a sea where they fled their captives. Could there possibly been more parting of the Sea's (Nile)?
Israel was the Priestly chosen nation out of the three. They were to be the representives of the other two nations, which by the Sinai mount they souly agreed to the God most high. The God that freed them all in deliverance.
So God said to Israel...
If you will obey my voice and keep my Covenant, you shall be my own possession among all peoples; for all the earth is mine, and you shall be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. (Ex.19:5-6)
[Edited on 4/20/2008 9:20 PM]
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| Apr 21 @ 1:57 AM |
On Men and God ll |
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,539
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Angel54,
Is the account in Jasher more support the joining of the Hebrew tribes from around Midian under Jethro with the Irealites coming out of Egypt with Moses. Jasher has Jethro giving the laws to Moses when he was to be married to Zippora(sp) his daughter. Exodus has God on the mountain giving the laws to Moses. I've seen references to Jethro calling him Lord of the Mountain, a much earlier name for Yahweh.
The OT writers told much and veiled much.
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| Apr 21 @ 2:07 AM |
On Men and God ll
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Angel54214
Posts: 14,074
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Yes...It was also Jethro that advised Moses not to do this all alone and suggested he make courts of judges to hereto the obedience from the people in God's laws and ordinances. Jethro was Moses Father-in-law as you know and Moses spent 40 years with him before the crossing into Sinai region. Jethro was a Kenite in Midian and a priest of EL-Shaddai. The first name God revealed himself as to the chosen ones. The same name Abraham obeyed to when called out of Ur and Melchizedek the King of Righteousness and King of Peace of Salem (Jeruselem.
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| Apr 21 @ 2:46 AM |
On Men and God ll |
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,539
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I have for a while now considered that the bibles reference to the Lord and Abraham talking veils that it was the Lord Melchizedek.
In Egyptian history Tao I, Terah is speaking to Abraham, who is first called Naby for prophet. Terah was said in the bible to have died in Haran, but this could have been a reference to losing his thrown in Ur. A mortal death in Egypt was called down to the earth, or return to the earth...death was a word also to mean loss of fortune, thrones, favor. Restorations of these usually saw a story emerge with a new name, and the name would suggest favored of a god, or beloved of.
And the person who came out to greet Abraham after the battle of 4 kings against 5, would like likely have been Melchizedek in the bible and Terah in the Egypt story. Abraham was said to have paid tithes to Melchizedek, but he would have also paid them to Terah, his father who he would have called lord if they were all royalty.
I put creedence in the Mechizedeck link to Abraham because I see a hint of a major revelation about God and man surfacing at the time of Abraham, especially since Melchizedek is presented as a priest/king Christ figure. This story would continue the Jewish story as sacred history...the Terah part could be the political history.
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| Apr 22 @ 1:01 AM |
On Men and God ll
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Angel54214
Posts: 14,074
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Lots to ponder Uncrazy!
Maybe a connection there of "Shepard Kings" of Founding Fathers and the Egyptian royals.
Possibly truth in the "escape goat" into the wilderness...
Gen. 46:
1 And Israel took his journey with all that he had, and came to Beersheba, and offered sacrifices unto the God of his father Isaac.
2 And God spake unto Israel in the visions of the night, and said, Jacob, Jacob. And he said, Here am I.
3 And he said, I am God, the God of thy father: fear not to go down into Egypt; for I will there make of thee a great nation
Gen. 41:45
And Pharaoh called Joseph's name Zaphnath-paaneah; and he gave him to wife Asenath the daughter of Potipherah priest of On. And Joseph went out over all the land of Egypt.
[Edited on 4/22/2008 1:12 AM]
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| Jun 9 @ 1:11 PM |
On Men and God ll |
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,539
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I am moving to this thread to offer ideas about contemporary writers documenting the events in Jesus life or the lack thereof. Flavius Josephus, born in 37AD, was a Pharisee general of the Jews of Galilee, fought against the Romans as a zealot, and turned to the Roman side. Two references to Jesus are in his work, the first is believed to be a later edit by Eusubius. The second reference is thought to be accurate and hints at the possible original content of the first reference before editing.
We can consider that many contemporary writings that may have described aspects or history relating to Jesus may have been lost in the destruction of the libraries by members of the early church.
Looking in the Nag Hamaddi texts we find references to Jesus in the Gospels of Phillip and Thomas, the Sophia of Jesus Christ, Apocalypse of John, Letter of Peter to Phillip, and probably others that I haven't yet found. Continuing to hold only the selection of works by Constantine as inerrant does allow the church to exclude the ideas that were contemporary with the selected approved books that they were uncomfortable with.
As their exclusion by censorship in early time shows this discomfort, it is also shown in the churches response since the discovery of the Nag Hamaddi texts.
Iraneaus, a bishop in 180AD alluded to the existence of many gospels, but he called them heresies. The Gospel of Thomas is thought by some to be older than the four accepted gospels and presents ideas that would be considered more of spirit than can be found in the four accepted gospels.
Addressing writings that might have been made as a documentary of what happened in Jesus' life, while it was happening...who knows...the truly powerful had scribes that committed events to stele, and it was written in the best light for the ruler, seldom were unfavorable outcomes accurately documented...most times these were just not recorded.
The best I can say to this point is no documentary was made of events in Jesus' life while they were happening.
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| Jun 9 @ 1:44 PM |
On Men and God ll
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,539
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Research on the term Desposyni yields some rare history of the family of David. Royal decrees all the way to Trajan in 110AD wanted all remnants of the line of David wiped out.
Perhaps we have a subtle clue why the 4th century church introduced the rule of celibacy for clerics, contrary to 2 Timothy, written by Paul stating that bishops should be married. Was it to keep the blood line of David through Jesus from spreading from unknown family members who may have been leaders of church factions? The church substituted apostolic succession for the ancient blood lines.
Text that tell the story of Magdalene going to Gaul, near the Lanquadoc valley and the subsequent love and veneration by the people are viewed as legends and fables by the church. They give us clues to the strength of gnosticism in France and why the church had to try to clear it out with the Albigensian crusades.
The missing 300 years of history from the Maccabeans to Herod also expose the line of Magdalene from her mother Eucharia was related to the Hasmonaean royal house of Isreal.
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| Jun 9 @ 1:49 PM |
On Men and God ll |
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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The best I can say to this point is no documentary was made of events in Jesus' life while they were happening. The next question is why when there were many writers of the time present who could have written about him either in a good light or even bad light. Instead, for 3 decades he is supposed to be alive there is empty silence.
We can consider that many contemporary writings that may have described aspects or history relating to Jesus may have been lost in the destruction of the libraries by members of the early church. This has often been suggested. There really isn't any indication or reference or quotes of text that might have been destroyed.
Does it matter to Christianity if there was a human Jesus or only a spirit?
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| Jun 9 @ 2:10 PM |
On Men and God ll
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,539
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Hammer,
The empty silence can be said about events and those who lived or ruled 2000 years ago. The phenomena of reporters having a deadline for tomorrow of the late news of today did not exist.
Alexander's accomplishments, the Persian or Pelopennesian Wars might have been told as stories first, and later written as textual histories. We haven't been as studious tracking the time lag of the appearance of documentational history of these events as it relates to the time of the event.
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| Jun 10 @ 4:34 PM |
On Men and God ll |
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,539
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I am often amazed when people talk about Satan and devils hiding inside the unwary to pull one away from God. Especially since Jesus said the Kingdom of God is within, it would seem probable to a sound mind that a devil wouldn't be comfortable hanging around God's kingdom. Only four reference are found in the OT to Satan, and he wasn't evil...he was an adversary to the people who acted under God's specific direction.
History, if we look, gives us information about how and when the idea of Satan evolved. It did not always exist as we now assume it did. The biblical satan had no physical descriptions. They were added later around 600AD by a Pope Gregory I. His decription gave the devil his personality, his horns and hoofs, and a power to manipulate the weather. Much more was linked later to the local pagan mythologies of those times.
How did it get stretched back in the story to Adam and Eve. Genesis portrays the serpent as possessing wisdom, who actually tells Adam and Eve the truth. It will be argued that he didn't but equally so that he did tell them accurately about the outcome of eating the fruit.
A Book of Adam and Eve written around 700 and Book of Cave Treasures from 500-700AD provide links of satan or the devil back to Adam and Eve. The ideas of this ever present satan are really an add-on to the original christian ideas...but they have been very important to supporting the role of the bishops and the apostolic authority of the Roman church.
Using a dislike for the Roman church will never provide a safe position from what it has contibuted to todays christian cultures. The contributions in both dogma and superstition of the early church before the splits of the reformation remain hidden in all the its offshoots, and supports a type of xenophobia for other faiths or belief systems by embeding its own sense of correctness.
I recently read of a aspect of religion and politics that I hadn't considered before called "inversion". It occurs when a political shift takes place and the winning team declares the old gods of the people as the cause of their loss. The gods of the winners then replace the old and the old rituals are replaced with the new correct ones. This can be seen in the OT when the God of the Hebrews was replacing the god of Ur in Canaan/Babylonia.
The symbol of the old god Baal/Marduk was the ram/sheep. this symbol was inverted to show loss of favor with the god and now became the new item sacrificed to the new God. A subtle way to tell the people what they can expect if the symbol of the god can be killed/desecrated without fear of any retribution from the old god, for the new god must be more powerful if it can kill the old one. The rituals then follow as they are modified to be adopted to the new cult or declared heresy and evil to be eliminated.
[Edited on 6/10/2008 5:12 PM]
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| Jun 10 @ 10:55 PM |
On Men and God ll
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Angel54214
Posts: 14,074
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The empty silence can be said about events and those who lived or ruled 2000 years ago. The phenomena of reporters having a deadline for tomorrow of the late news of today did not exist.
Well Uncrazy, let's see if we can't remove the veil.
As I revert to my stored knowledge memory bank, a couple ancient history books and the overview of King Nebuchadnezzar's dream in the O.T. book of Daniel, along with variances of historian writings, we can possibly make heads and tails of the four hundred missing years between Malachi (which ends with a curse) and Matthew (the birth of Christ).
The setting at the N.T. was the religious order of the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Herodians of which no mention was made in the Old Testament. Rome was in power and the Jews were under a vice king Herod the Great, which was an Edomite; a descendant of Esau.
At the close of the Old Testament Israel was still under the rule of the priesthood. At this time in history the priesthood had become compromised with the things of the world.
As we open the four hundred silent years we discover the Medes and Persians are in control of the known world. This is as far as the O.T. records.
Upon raising of the veil to peek into the missing four hundred years, with Jaddua the high priest. He was the last high priest mentioned in the O.T. Jaddua was the high priest when Alexander the Great defeated Darius the Persian king, and when Alexander the Great began his empire which included Palestine around 335 B.C.
With the victory of Alexander the Great and the defeat of the Medo-Persian Empire, we can begin to see the intepretations of King Nebuchadnezzar's dream.
During the reign of Alexander the whole world changed, especially the priesthood in Israel. Alexander grecianized or Hellenized the whole known world. The hellenistic system was one of pleasure and ease. Alexander's kingdom only lasted 12 1/2 years. He died in 323 B.C. at the age of only thirty three and left no successor or heir; his kingdom fell to disarray.
Alexander had four generals and between them his kingdom was divided. Antigonus was Alexander's most powerful general. He and his son Demetrius seized Syria. Antigonus sought to control Palestine, but Ptolemy Lagus controlled it. When the people favored Antigonus this then led to a bloody conflict.
Soter, Ptolemy's son led an army into Jerusalem to punish its dwellers for their treasonable actions and the army massacred vast numbers of them. He led as many as one hundred thousand to captivity into Egypt. In Egypt the Jews were given many freedoms. Many were assimulated into the Egyptian culture and many other Jews followed their predecessors to Egypt to escape the war torn city of Jerusalem. This war continued between Antigonus and Soter until the land of Palestine was completely devastated and Jerusalem lay in shambles.
Making a break here for the ending of this captivity and opening a new post page.
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| Jun 10 @ 11:29 PM |
On Men and God ll |
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Angel54214
Posts: 14,074
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Beginning here with Israel centralized in peace for a few years until 301 B.C. Thus rolls into the battle of Ipsus. Four of Alexander's generals; Ptolemy, Seleucus, Lysimachus and Cassander attacked Antigonus and they defeated him. Antigonus' son Demetrius fled and was later captured and died in captivity.
Jaddua remained as high priest during this time and he died around 301 B.C. He was followed by Onias I. There's little written of Onias. He was followed by his son, Simon the Just. He was thus called due to his kindness toward his people.
Then there is Simon who repaired the house of God and fortified the temple wall. He was a good man who sought to stop the hellinization of the priesthood and the people. Simon held to the Scriptures and the ceremonies, but he put all his trust and beliefs into the ceremonial worship of God instead of the true worship of God. He became exclusive, believing he was the only one. (Sounds like similar examples of the televised church leaders of the modern day).
Like as Paul had said in Timothy, "They have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof"...
The priesthood form religion and the exclusivism led to the formation of the religious sect called the Pharisees. The Pharisees were called the "Separatists."
Back to Simon - he became the head of the Sanhedrim, the high court of the Jews. Was the first of the great rabbis who embraced the oral teachings of the Mishna, which is from the Babylonian Talmud that the Jews brought with them from the Babylonian captivity. The Mishna superceded the Word of God, and has been used as the Jewish gospel ever since. Contains the Jewish laws; the Jewish worship and Jewish beliefs come from the Mishna.
Simon died in 291 B.C. His brother Eleazar became the high priest and ruled for fifteen years until 276 B.C. During this time Ptolemy Soter ruled Palestine. Soter died in 284 B.C. His son Ptolemy Philadelphus took his place. It was during the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus that the first five books of the O.T. were translated into greek which is called the Septuagint. This was the first time the Bible was available in the language of the common man.
Those who were not part of the separatists movement continued in their hellenistic beliefs of ease and comfort no matter what the true Word of God said. These later became the Sadducees (the righteous ones). These became righteous in their own eyes and forsook the righteousness of God. So with the Pharisees and the Sadducees, we discover the formation of the religious sects of the days of our Lord in the N.T.
Simon's son Onias II succeeded Manasseh as hight priest in 251 B.C. Ptolemy Philadelphus ruled until 247 B.C. He was followed by Ptolemy Euergetes. It was during his reign that the Jewish people came under most harsh treatment.
Onias II who did not follow in his father's footsteps was known as "a man of little soul." This was quoted by Josephus. Onias II had not paid the annual tribute of twenty talents of silver, (about $2,000.00) per year to Euergetes, (Ptolemy III, Ptolemy II's oldest son) for many years. The sum had become such a sizable amount and the Jews were unable to pay. Then Euergetes sent his officials to threaten the Jews and demand payment in full or he would destroy the Jewish state. Nice guy huh? Almost enough to close the veil and see no more.
I will be advancing into another new post.
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