| Apr 13 @ 12:39 AM |
On Men and God ll
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hunt4luv
Posts: 1,234
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God aproved her casting hagar and ishmael off because it shouldnt have happened in the first place. now by casting her out the penalty for foolish decisions would begain. hence the hatred of Islam for the Jews and christianity.
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| Apr 13 @ 12:58 AM |
On Men and God ll |
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Angel54214
Posts: 14,074
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Hunt...Hagar was Egyptian, not Arabic.
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| Apr 13 @ 1:22 AM |
On Men and God ll
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SunBabe
Posts: 12,251
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hence the hatred of Islam for the Jews and christianity
I guess you missed the verses in the Quaran that says Muslims are to respect Jews and Christians and those who believe in God. 
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| Apr 13 @ 1:39 AM |
On Men and God ll |
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Angel54214
Posts: 14,074
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Sun, you mean like these?
Koran
5:51
Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. Allah does not guide the wrong-doers.
5:64
The Jews say: 'God's hand is chained.' May their own hands be chained! May they be cursed for what they say!...
9:30
The Jews call 'Uzayr-a son of God', and the Christinas call 'Christ the Son Of God'. That is a saying from their mouth; (In this) they but intimate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are decluded away from the Truth.
9:29
Fight those who do not profess the true faith (Islam) till they pay the jiziya (poll tax) with the hand of humility.
I'd post the ones on unbelievers, but there are so many 
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| Apr 13 @ 1:57 AM |
On Men and God ll
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SunBabe
Posts: 12,251
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 I posted pages and pages of stuff to the contrary a long time ago. I'm not going to sift through all those verses again. The Koran has as many contridictions and conflicts as the Bible...and most of it needs to be taken in context with the whole "story".
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| Apr 13 @ 2:20 AM |
On Men and God ll |
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,539
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Such good topic areas tonight...
Hunt mentioned in one of his threads, on Cain and Abel, a thougt about the seed of Cain being all drowned in the flood. This idea does enforce the idea that the Messianic line to David in the 1000BC came from only Seth, Adam and Eves' third son. Also passing in christian thought is that the mark of Cain was a defilement...what if it was a mark he received because he was not born with markings like those appearing on the offspring of Adam and Eve; to leave the clan of Adam for the Nodite lands he would need a mark to protect him as the mark protected the others in Adam's family.
Adam's line is considered divine...Jesus was called the second, Adam that did not fall. Socially the line of Adam would have been considered of royal blood, and that is likely sin only the royal lines were meticulously recorded.
I have come to suspect that the line from Seth is carefully written to show that the line to the messiah was the true line for the Isrealites and the line of Cain is written out. Why, you may wonder would I suspect this. If we look at the history of linage of Sumerians from the Annunaki we can see what needed to be hidden from view.
In their linage, placing it around 5000BC we see four figures, Adama, Eve, Lilith, and Enki brother of Enlil (Enlil was the god diplaced in Ur by Marduk/Baal at the time Abraham and his father left Ur. Among these four the following births are shown:
Adama and Eve birthed Abel,Lebhuda, Noraia, and Seth.
Enki and Eve birthed Cain
Enki and Lilith birthed Rowana/Awan and Kalimath, two daughters.
Rowana/Awan became the Nodite wife of Cain and Kalimath the wife of Seth.
Did the OT writers in the 900BC range tell a story that hid this part of the history of the Sumerians, and no one ever need look back at the lines from Cain.
The flood does then conveniently wash away any remants of Cain's line, yet signs of the line appear in the Egyptian history around the time of Moses.
Just thoughts...this may be a good question to next ask the reseacher if he responds to my e-mail.
[Edited on 4/13/2008 2:40 AM]
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| Apr 13 @ 2:26 AM |
On Men and God ll
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Angel54214
Posts: 14,074
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I posted pages and pages of stuff to the contrary a long time ago. I'm not going to sift through all those verses again.
Just post the link to the thread(s) 
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| Apr 13 @ 2:33 AM |
On Men and God ll |
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SunBabe
Posts: 12,251
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There are 1,463 threads with 82,871 posts in this forum alone  ...and it might have been in the politics forum. I forget the original topic, even (just how much work it was sifting through websites and wading through "Koranic Scripture" -- sites that weren't skewed to anti- or pro-Islam) 
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| Apr 13 @ 2:34 AM |
On Men and God ll
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Angel54214
Posts: 14,074
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Lots of info uncrazy...
I was thinking of the wives of Noah's 3 sons. Noah was the son of Lamech, who had 2 wives; Adah and Zillah. After Lamech had Noah, he begat other sons and daughters. Scriptures also mention Lamech had a son before Noah. Lemech was a descendant of Cain. I wonder now, who was Noah's wife and who were the wives of his sons. Scriptures state that Noah found grace in the eyes of God, but his family is not included as finding this grace.
Another train of thought; God had Noah aboard clean and unclean animals, which possibly could also indicate simularities of clean and unclean people.
[Edited on 4/13/2008 2:43 AM]
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| Apr 13 @ 2:36 AM |
On Men and God ll |
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Angel54214
Posts: 14,074
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Sun, I will give it a try sometime in "keyword" search. Thanks anyways. 
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| Apr 13 @ 2:39 AM |
On Men and God ll
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,539
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The second idea is prompted by Hunt's idea that the jealousies between hagar and Sarah is the source of the enmity between Jews and Muslims.
First, no conflicts are ever noted between Isaac and Ishmeal who is known to the Egyptians as Semenioh.
First, Islam was not created until 600 years after Jesus's death...we have a time where a religion didn't exist that could be at war with Jews.
Religious historians, Egyptian, British, Arab, American, have offered that the rigidity of the Jewish faith and the concept of the Christian Trinity were both unworkable ideas in the minds of the Arabs, thus the time was ripe for the birth of Islam. The idea of the trinity looked like a polytheistic God to the Arab and they had always believed in a single (monotheistic) God. This is the source of the theological conflict they have with Jews and Christians. They do not see us worshiping a single God...the see christians worshiping three, violating the 1st commandment. Blondin might help us here. It is clear that Allah is their God and no other God exists but Allah. Sounds a lot like the christian 1st commandment.
To place the cause of conflicts between our religions on Hagar and Abraham, actually she was likely an Egyptian princess related to Thutmosis III, is a reach and has to re-imply the Hebrew blaming of women for all man's trouble. God had a covenant with each.
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| Apr 13 @ 2:48 AM |
On Men and God ll |
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Angel54214
Posts: 14,074
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Another observation which your post uncrazy made me think of is, Mount Sinai is in Arabia, which was also called Mount Horeb. Later it was called Mount Hagar (some bible translations call it Agar). When Hagar and Ishmael was made to leave by Sarah, they traveled to Paran, which is the outskirts of Agar/Mout Sinai.
Gal. 4:
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
I have come to suspect that the line from Seth is carefully written to show that the line to the messiah was the true line for the Isrealites and the line of Cain is written out. I see stop signal though...The Messiah was to come from the line of Judah and not to come from the line of Israel. Jesse, David and Solomon was from the line of Judah; the royal line of kings.
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| Apr 13 @ 3:00 AM |
On Men and God ll
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,539
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Angel54,
Sorry about the long paragraphs...
Good questions on Noah and and his wife...
I had read something of Lamech's offspring, but will have to relook for it...i wonder now where was Noah in the succession line of Lamech, and was it lamech behind the curtain who warned/told him to build the boat?
Lamech is a Thoth archetype from the Antedeluvian periods, the Thoth/Lamech character appears at the end of the Old. Middle, and New kingdom groupings in the Egyptian dynasties. The role of Lamech can also be seen repeating in the epic cycle of genesis by laying the books of Kings, Chronicles, Samuel and some others overtop of the character roles in genesis. The character roles that repeat are Noah, Moses, Joseph, Elisha, Elisa, Panhensy,David, and Isaac& Esau..other exist but I can't pull them out.
I haven't a clue on Noah having grace and the family not...but will look and offer what I find.
So much information...so little time.
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| Apr 13 @ 3:27 AM |
On Men and God ll |
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,539
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Angel54,
I see stop signal though...The Messiah was to come from the line of Judah and not to come from the line of Israel. Jesse, David and Solomon was from the line of Judah; the royal line of kings.
Yes, yes, yes...enthusiasm showing here...
is this the place where on the Isrealite side we have the priest line coming down from Aaron, but in the line from Judah, I can find connects from Judah to Pharez to Hezron...then the OT seems to miss generations then picks up at Caleb, to Hur, to Uri, to Bezaleel whose daughter is wife to Salma/Salmon, then we lose 4 generations and it looks like they birthed Boaz, that took us to Obed, Jesse, and David.
Somehow, and I don't understand yet how or where, I think we will find the Isrealite line reconnecting to the Judah line prior to David...this may have been in the years not covered by the OT...might find them with more digging in the Egyptian history.
There is a link that might be related with a conflict between Moses and Aaron about a covenant when he married the Midian woman. The book of Jasher talks of of Moses getting the laws from Jethro a Midian, Exodus says he got them from Jehovah. I will look for the line for the Midians...the name suggests Mesopotamia, so I will search there.
The OT is a rich story...
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| Apr 13 @ 3:38 AM |
On Men and God ll
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,539
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Angel54,
And when Hagar was exiled, she and Ishmeal were dying from thirst in the desert...she prayed to God and a spring bubbled up under the child. If God wanted to save us he could have not answered Hagars prayer with a miracle...this spring exists yet today, can't remember the name of the place it was given.
Somewhere I read that her brother told her to return to Abraham, evidently she did for Abraham loved his son and likely lived with him.
Some of the blessing conferred on Senemioh, First priest of the Temple of Min, and Counter of the lord's(pharoah's) cattle. He was also likely royalty as his mummy is intured in the Theban tomb #55.
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| Apr 13 @ 4:02 AM |
On Men and God ll |
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Angel54214
Posts: 14,074
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this spring exists yet today, can't remember the name of the place it was given.
In the O.T. It was located in Shur on the border of Egypt, for Hagar was going back to her homeland. Ishmael died there:
Gen. 25:
17 And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, an hundred and thirty and seven years: and he gave up the ghost and died; and was gathered unto his people.
18 And they dwelt from Havilah unto Shur, that is before Egypt, as thou goest toward Assyria: and he died in the presence of all his brethren.
The Islams call this fountain the Zamzam Spring.
It's a very sacred site to Islams; to them it is in the journey path to Mecca; they call this area Hajj.
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| Apr 13 @ 4:12 AM |
On Men and God ll
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Angel54214
Posts: 14,074
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I can find connects from Judah to Pharez to Hezron...then the OT seems to miss generations then picks up at Caleb
I know there are some missing generations of the priesthood lineage, just can't recall at the moment, but will research it. Caleb was the son of Hezron, so the generation connection flows there so as is stated in the Chronicles.
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| Apr 13 @ 7:17 AM |
On Men and God ll |
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sealacamp
Posts: 3,154
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The Koran has as many contridictions and conflicts as the Bible...and most of it needs to be taken in context with the whole "story".
This is absolutely false in so many ways. It justs goes to show how deceived you truly are since you believe this is true when in fact you have all the evidence in front of you to the contrary.
Kill the infidel is what the koran teaches and what mohammad taught to his followers and it is what he practiced as well. Not to mention the sub human aspect of the way that others are to be treated, especially women.
No you are dead wrong.
S
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| Apr 13 @ 8:46 AM |
On Men and God ll
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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Seal,
Kill the infidel is what the koran teaches and what mohammad taught to his followers and it is what he practiced as well. Not to mention the sub human aspect of the way that others are to be treated, especially women. Sounds like the same fables taught by the old and new testaments.
Would you like to see the verses in your bible that instruct to kill nonbelievers? Put down women?
How about the rapes and destroying of whole cities. You are blind to the fact that all three Abrahamic religions are based on hate, war and genocide.
You will not respond because you know that I can provide many, many verses to support my view. You have none that can dispute them.
Peace
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| Apr 13 @ 9:20 AM |
On Men and God ll |
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hunt4luv
Posts: 1,234
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Angel I Understand that Hagar was Egyptian. It is through Ishmael that the Arab nation was Born and through them that Islam was born. That is the point I was making.
When Sarah first came to Abraham she was bringing That which wasn't meant to be to Abraham. and Abraham was Guilty of being led in the wrong direction
by Sarah.
Later Sarah wanted to put Hagar and Ishmael away from them and Abraham
wanted to keep Ishmael because he loved him. Now Sarah was in line with Gods will and God told Abraham to listen to her.
Ishmael was not to possess the birthright.
Don't be mistaken and think I'm attacking woman
Obedience to God is the Issue and The price of wrong decisions.
the fact that God backed Sarah is proof that Ishmael was a product of disobedience or Trying to do Gods will by mans own strength.
When a person is in tune with Gods will his witness will be in tune with them.
After Sarah died Abraham had wives and Children they were not given the birthright either. They were given gifts. Nowhere in the Bible does it say Abraham and Sarah reunited I assume it didn't happen.
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