| Apr 2 @ 1:55 PM |
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 835
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Some of the other threads were sort of getting off on tangents, so I thought I would start this one.
I am a Christian, so ask me what you like, I will do my best to answer honestly and respectfully. If you could refrain from being insulting, that would be appreciated, but even if you are insulting, as long as you have a valid point or question, I will try to respond. If I don't know, I will just say "I don't know"
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| Apr 2 @ 2:00 PM |
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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There has been many questions but so far no answers. Just avoidances.
Is man capable of knowing God?
Does God exist?
Does all things follow Cause and Effect?
Do all sentient Beings, IF they are good, go to heaven?
In the above case; Will my neighbour be a Neanderthal man?
Many others but...... 
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| Apr 2 @ 2:15 PM |
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 835
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Disclaimer: Please take my answers as being my own beliefs, and my understanding of the bible. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Is man capable of knowing God? To an extent but not completely, at least not while we are of this world. There may be later stages where our understanding is greater, but I suspect that we will never know him completely.
Does God exist? Yes. What is adequate proof that he exists varies by individual. For me, I think the evidence is all around us. The design of the human for example is extremely intricate. A creation implies a creator. An occurence suggests a catalyst.
Does all things follow Cause and Effect? Not sure I get you on this one. Pleae elaborate.
Do all sentient Beings, IF they are good, go to heaven? No. Good is not a factor. There is no good. All have the opportunity to go to heaven, but not because they are good. Some will go and some don't. The ones that don't are destroyed/perish Note: They do not suffer in hell forever and ever, but are destroyed in the "second death"
In the above case; Will my neighbour be a Neanderthal man? In a matter of speaking, you will not be you, and he will not be he. Both of you will be a latter stage of yourself. Here on Earth, you are a catepillar. There, you will be a butterfly. I can't say what heaven will be like, or what we will be like when we get there, but it will be different and better and we will be different and better.
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| Apr 2 @ 2:29 PM |
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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Is man capable of knowing God?
To an extent but not completely, at least not while we are of this world. There may be later stages where our understanding is greater, but I suspect that we will never know him completely.
Then how would we know God exists when only seeing a fraction of something that there is not complete answer for?
Does God exist?
Yes. What is adequate proof that he exists varies by individual. For me, I think the evidence is all around us. The design of the human for example is extremely intricate. A creation implies a creator. An occurence suggests a catalyst.
I dont see anywhere that a God made anything. On the contrary, man himself can and will learn to create exactly in the same way. No God needed. As it happens all evidences point to origination through causes. No God.
Does all things follow Cause and Effect?
Not sure I get you on this one. Pleae elaborate.
For every action there is a consequence. Taking any instance of "something" in our cosmos wasnt it came about by original causation?
Do all sentient Beings, IF they are good, go to heaven?
No. Good is not a factor. There is no good. All have the opportunity to go to heaven, but not because they are good. Some will go and some don't. The ones that don't are destroyed/perish Note: They do not suffer in hell forever and ever, but are destroyed in the "second death"
If there is no "good" what is there then? How long is heaven timeline?
In the above case; Will my neighbour be a Neanderthal man?
In a matter of speaking, you will not be you, and he will not be he. Both of you will be a latter stage of yourself. Here on Earth, you are a catepillar. There, you will be a butterfly. I can't say what heaven will be like, or what we will be like when we get there, but it will be different and better and we will be different and better.
It is all belief based. So how do sentient being evolve? We are in ignorance about a great deal of things but we learn wisdom through our actions. Again consequences of doing right and wrong are very real.
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| Apr 2 @ 2:38 PM |
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 835
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Good questions!!! -and- Thank-you for being polite.
Then how would we know God exists when only seeing a fraction of something that there is not complete answer for? You don't have to see the entire iceberg to know it is there. You probably don't realize it's magnitude from looking at only the top, but if you acknowledge it, or ignore it, the affects from it will be the same.
I dont see anywhere that a God made anything. Well, we can't make things like a snowflake or a tree leaf (yet). To me that is evidence, but you may not agree.
On the contrary, man himself can and will learn to create exactly in the same way. No God needed. I agree. We are constantly learning more of the tricks of this world/existance. One day we will use this place up and move on to somewhere else.
As it happens all evidences point to origination through causes. No God I disagree. I think, we will be able to do that, but we can't yet. If we didn't who did?
For every action there is a consequence. Taking any instance of "something" in our cosmos wasnt it came about by original causation? I think God is the original cause, and that much of what goes on today is reactionary to the way things were originally set in motion.
If there is no "good" what is there then? How long is heaven timeline? There is no "good" of this world/existance. The next world may be different. I am not sure if Heaven is permanent, or another stage that leads to the next. Actually, we know so little about heaven, other than it is better than this, that it doesn't matter anyway.
It is all belief based. So how do sentient being evolve? We are in ignorance about a great deal of things but we learn wisdom through our actions. I agree
Again consequences of doing right and wrong are very real. I agree. the consequence of doing right and wrong are absolutely real. The bad news: we have all done wrong. We are all flawed and we all deserve to be destroyed. Our escape is that someone else, Yeashua, sacrificed himself to give us a second chance. Some will take advantage of that second chance, and some will not.
[Edited on 4/2/2008 2:46 PM]
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| Apr 2 @ 2:48 PM |
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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Then how would we know God exists when only seeing a fraction of something that there is not complete answer for?
You don't have to see the entire iceberg to know it is there. You probably don't realize it's magnitude from looking at only the top, but if you acknowledge it, or ignore it, the affects from it will be the same.
An iceberg is only one element and well understood. God... is something beyond anyones capability dont you think? An iceberg is the one element - water. Now if God created the cosmos and we dont know how then how do we know what we are looking at in respect to a God.
I dont see anywhere that a God made anything.
Well, we can't make things like a snowflake or a tree leaf (yet). To me that is evidence, but you may not agree.
Evidence? We can make snow flakes and we can make tree leaves grow, even human ears on mice. So I still dont see where God comes into the picture.
On the contrary, man himself can and will learn to create exactly in the same way. No God needed.
I agree. We are constantly learning more of the tricks of this world/existance. One day we will use it up and move on to something else.
Then your above statements were meaningless because you agree?
As it happens all evidences point to origination through causes. No God
So you are in agreement... No God?
Oh no.... thought we agreed. Okay continuing with the next post...
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| Apr 2 @ 2:52 PM |
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 835
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An iceberg is only one element and well understood. God... is something beyond anyones capability dont you think? An iceberg is the one element - water. Now if God created the cosmos and we dont know how then how do we know what we are looking at in respect to a God. The evidence suggest the existence of something greater then ourselves. Something poweful enough to generate the big-bang and set the universe in motion. Typify it as you will. I typify it as God.
Evidence? We can make snow flakes and we can make tree leaves grow, even human ears on mice. So I still dont see where God comes into the picture. We can't make leaves, (unless you count planting a seed and watching it grow) We can grow an ear on a mouse's back but that is relatively new. Ears on people have existed long before we knew how. One day we will be able to create a leaf in a lab without growing it, but we can't yet. One day we will unlock all the riddles here and reverse-engineer/recreate what is here, but that does notmean we are the original engineer or the original creator. We are only copying what someone else has done before us.
Leaves and ears have been around a long time, well before we knew how. If we didn't make them, someone else must have.
A creation implies a creator
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| Apr 2 @ 2:59 PM |
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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As it happens all evidences point to origination through causes. No God
I disagree. I think, we will be able to do that, but we can't yet. If we didn't who did?
Look at all things and we see their originations from something else.
For every action there is a consequence. Taking any instance of "something" in our cosmos wasnt it came about by original causation?
I think God is the original cause, and that much of what goes on today is reactionary to the way things were originally set in motion.
Would it be that all things had to have started from something but our interpretation of what it is, is far beyond our understanding?
If there is no "good" what is there then? How long is heaven timeline?
There is no "good" of this world/existance. The next world may be different. I am not sure if Heaven is permanent, or another stage that leads to the next. Actually, we know so little about heaven, other than it is better than this, that it doesn't matter anyway.
Wouldn't it be wise to consider all options as to the origins of a heaven? For example looking at other spiritual/religious systems for answers or to find the answers within oneself.
It is all belief based. So how do sentient being evolve? We are in ignorance about a great deal of things but we learn wisdom through our actions.
I agree
Great to have agreements. 
Again consequences of doing right and wrong are very real.
I agree. the consequence of doing right and wrong are absolutely real. The bad news: we have all done wrong. We are all flawed and we all deserve to be destroyed. Our escape is that someone else, Yeashua, sacrificed himself to give us a second chance. Some will take advantage of that second chance, and some will not.
Why would that be? We all do wrong, of course, we are not perfect. But doesnt nature have its own way to judge us and for us to pay for our faults? Our actions have consequences. Man does have his laws and they are actions within themselves that either reward or punish us but natures way is perfect in its justice for right and wrong.
regardless of what Jesus Christ did and did not do for us, we can not escape the fact no matter what we do, whether sin or not we do get our just rewards.
Why would the actions of one man some time ago bleeding on a cross change natures way. Isnt it impossible?
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| Apr 2 @ 3:06 PM |
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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The evidence suggest the existence of something greater then ourselves. Something poweful enough to generate the big-bang and set the universe in motion. Typify it as you will. I typify it as God.
We dont know what it is that created all this "something" that is so vast and unimaginable and there is no evidences of anything that intercedes anything to do with it as it evolves by its own accord. Therefore how do we know God? Maybe it is something far beyond any notion of a God that did something else that is not even recognizable as a creation. It is simply ALL beyond us. Would you agree?
A creation implies a creator
A creator could be just a simple catalyst. Leave a bottle of water outside in the sun and it will turn green and in time something else. Causations.
It comes back to the top most points that we dont know God or capable of knowing what a God is and is not. Maybe something else.
But does it matter?
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| Apr 2 @ 3:09 PM |
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hunt4luv
Posts: 1,234
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Lance Welcome to the circus.
careful some of the animals are vicious!
Lance you posted this above please explain how you feel we can be Gods and have no need of him from a Christian point of veiw. not opinions.
knottys words
On the contrary, man himself can and will learn to create exactly in the same way. No God needed.
Your words
I agree. We are constantly learning more of the tricks of this world/existance. One day we will use this place up and move on to somewhere else.
John 15:4-5
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
[Edited on 4/2/2008 3:59 PM]
[Edited on 4/2/2008 4:00 PM]
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| Apr 2 @ 3:10 PM |
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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Lance Welcome to the circus.
careful some of the animals are vicious!
Shame!
We were having a great debate and now it has become a circus!
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| Apr 2 @ 3:23 PM |
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hunt4luv
Posts: 1,234
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knotty  He needed to have fair warning about the snake pit. Time tells all doesn't it.
You were leading him to start an argument. My question to him is what you knew I would ask. 
I wasn't born yesterday knotty
Lance if you will read my thread on cause and effect you will see what he was trying to do with you earlier trying to put us at odds.
I'm not saying ill agree with everything you say but Will at least stand on reason and The Word of God.
[Edited on 4/2/2008 3:27 PM]
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| Apr 2 @ 3:25 PM |
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Heaveninawildflower
Posts: 15,360
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Hunt, I've been on here a lot longer than you have, and Lance has been here a lot longer than I have so he doesn't really need your warnings.
(Thanks for this thread, it's been a pleasure reading some civil and intelligent exchanges, both of you!)
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| Apr 2 @ 3:29 PM |
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hunt4luv
Posts: 1,234
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lance hasnt been in the forums. Ya'all play nice now
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| Apr 2 @ 3:35 PM |
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Heaveninawildflower
Posts: 15,360
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Hunt...trust me, he's been in the forums, just not since you've been here. If you go back to some of the older pages you'll see he's been here and holds his own quite nicely, in a nice, restrained, reasonable manner. I've been on here only since the boards were reinstated, but I believe he was a member on the original boards.
Ah ha...I see, new version, but still the same Lance!
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| Apr 2 @ 3:42 PM |
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hunt4luv
Posts: 1,234
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I stand corected perhaps I should stand back and watch the show.
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| Apr 2 @ 5:22 PM |
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 835
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We dont know what it is that created all this "something" that is so vast and unimaginable and there is no evidences of anything that intercedes anything to do with it as it evolves by its own accord. Therefore how do we know God? Vast and unimaginable is exactly how I would describe God. Really, what else do we really know about God? (God the father, not God's son Yeahsua). He is powerful. His good. He is vast and unimaginable.
Lance Welcome to the circus. careful some of the animals are vicious! Hi, thanks for the welcome. I was asking everyone to be polite on the thread. That is tough to do with such intense subject matter, but I appreciate folks giving it a try.
A creator could be just a simple catalyst. Leave a bottle of water outside in the sun and it will turn green and in time something else. Causations. I get what you are saying, but I don't think the anology works. This can occur by happenstance, I agree. If a bug is on a sidewalk for a while, someone will step on it.
This is a little different' I think. Think about the human hand. There is so much design. A lot of though went into how ot make it work and work well. Things don't seem to happen that way by chance.
If you throw a bunch of graphite at a white wall, it is going to make marks, but is it just going to be a mish-mash that doesn't mean anything, just marks from whereever the bits happened to hit. Now, you come into the same room, and on the wall is lettering and a picture of a house, and you say, hey wait-a-minute. This is not just random marks, this intelligent design. Someone was here and deliberately made this.
Lance you posted this above please explain how you feel we can be Gods and have no need of him from a Christian point of veiw. not opinions. What I was meaning to say is that, the proof of God's existence is that these things were present before man could create them. I conceded the point that we have been and will continue to duplicate what is here, but the fact that we are only reverse-enginering implies that there was an original engineer who came before us.
Why would that be? We all do wrong, of course, we are not perfect. But doesnt nature have its own way to judge us and for us to pay for our faults? Our actions have consequences. Man does have his laws and they are actions within themselves that either reward or punish us but natures way is perfect in its justice for right and wrong.
regardless of what Jesus Christ did and did not do for us, we can not escape the fact no matter what we do, whether sin or not we do get our just rewards.
Why would the actions of one man some time ago bleeding on a cross change natures way. Isnt it impossible? Actually, that one seems strange to me too. Sure we are faulty, and we are bad, but was there nothing of us that was of value prior to? How does one person being scarificed, which was was a horrible torture, balance out through all the sins through the ages? To be honest, I can not draw it all out on the board and put a equal sign in middle and explain why it is square.
but......
When I was 10, I did not understand why I needed a vaccination or had to do homework. At a later station in my development, I came to understand. For now, I have to believe the math is right because the equations are more complex then what I can understand.
As we grow and learn, we piece together more and more of the puzzle. When we enter the next world, alot of what is hidden now, will be revealed.
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| Apr 2 @ 5:32 PM |
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hunt4luv
Posts: 1,234
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Their is still the question of being like God and not needing Him. Am curious where you stand on this. In Light of the scripture posted. John 15
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| Apr 2 @ 5:39 PM |
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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Vast and unimaginable is exactly how I would describe God. Really, what else do we really know about God? (God the father, not God's son Yeahsua). He is powerful. His good. He is vast and unimaginable.
Nothing really. We just se and try to understand what is in front of us. Everything else is "imagination." Truth be told. There is no harm in considering a God because we simply dont know either way. Maybe there is and maybe there isnt. Who knows.
This is a little different' I think. Think about the human hand. There is so much design. A lot of though went into how ot make it work and work well. Things don't seem to happen that way by chance.
Could it be we evolved one finger at a time and advanced physically and spiritually?
If you throw a bunch of graphite at a white wall, it is going to make marks, but is it just going to be a mish-mash that doesn't mean anything, just marks from whereever the bits happened to hit. Now, you come into the same room, and on the wall is lettering and a picture of a house, and you say, hey wait-a-minute. This is not just random marks, this intelligent design. Someone was here and deliberately made this.
Would it be random? Look at all the events.... causation. The scenario simply could not exist without each piece being a cause of something else.
Why would the actions of one man some time ago bleeding on a cross change natures way. Isnt it impossible?
Actually, that one seems strange to me too. Sure we are faulty, and we are bad, but was there nothing of us that was of value prior to? How does one person being scarificed, which was was a horrible torture, balance out through all the sins through the ages? To be honest, I can not draw it all out on the board and put a equal sign in middle and explain why it is square.
If we look within ourselves we do see the purity of our own nature. Its essence is pure because if we are of "God" or of a pure nature that created all then why not? This is own of the great realisations because when we do look within ourselves we can find the truth of this purity. Maybe Jesus Christ realised the nature of his own actions and that of others and with his own negative actions during his time realised he had a price to pay. Wouldnt it stand to reason that knowing natures way we "get us" in the end we can pay back in our own time rather than natures time?
but......
When I was 10, I did not understand why I needed a vaccination or had to do homework. At a later station in my development, I came to understand. For now, I have to believe the math is right because the equations are more complex then what I can understand.
This is a problem though, having to believe when all around there is wisdom beyond the need to have belief. We can be certain and say this IS so and that IS so.
As we grow and learn, we piece together more and more of the puzzle. When we enter the next world, alot of what is hidden now, will be revealed.
But if the puzzle is constantly founded on beliefs it slowly weighs heavy and the mind becomes so indoctrinated. But, opening in awareness to possibilities opens us to truths where belief is not necessary. Surelly?
The next world, again, is a belief for the many. What if we are wrong?
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| Apr 2 @ 5:44 PM |
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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Hunt:
Hunt:
knotty He needed to have fair warning about the snake pit. Time tells all doesn't it.
Hes been around a lot longer than you and needs no warnings.
You were leading him to start an argument. My question to him is what you knew I would ask.
Not at all. We are having a good debate and i appreciate it.
I wasn't born yesterday knotty
Pity. The young innocence is special.
Lance if you will read my thread on cause and effect you will see what he was trying to do with you earlier trying to put us at odds.
hrmmm.... are you insecure on what you believe?
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