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| Apr 3, 2008 @ 6:53 PM |
The second death, not eternal torment in hell
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 1,092
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Eternal Life or The Second Death
Throughout the bible, it states repeatedly, death versus life. It does not say death versus eternal suffering in hell. That is a fabrication riveted into the public conscious by the "Inferno" from Dante Alighieri’s play “The Divine Comedy” (If you don’t recognize the name, you may have heard parts of the story, the sign post that says “Abandon all hope yee who enter here” and all of that. Scan for it on the internet to learn more). Ever since then, people have been trying to piece together the puzzle to make that interpretation scriptural.
The second death is an eternal punishment, a destruction from which there is no coming back, but it is not eternal punishing involving continuous, eternal torture. We get eternal life because we believe in Jesus. We get it by eating of the Tree of Life. The devil and his angels are already immortal and cannot be destroyed. Adam was thrown out of Eden before he could eat of the Tree of Life and become immortal.
Genesis 3
9. But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"
10. He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."
11. And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"
12. The man said, "The woman you put here with me--she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."
13. Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."
14. So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, "Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.
15. And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."
16. To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."
17. To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, `You must not eat of it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.
18. It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field.
19. By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."
20. Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.
21. The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.
22. And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
23. So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.
24. After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
John 3
16. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
17. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
John 3
35. The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands.
36. Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
John 5
24. "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
25. I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
John 10
28. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
29. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
30. I and the Father are one."
Romans 4
25. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
Romans 5
20. The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,
21. so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6
16. Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
17. But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted.
18. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
19. I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-i
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| Apr 3, 2008 @ 7:40 PM |
The second death, not eternal torment in hell |
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uncrazy
Posts: 2,382
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Lance,
The second death is an eternal punishment, a destruction from which there is no coming back, but it is not eternal punishing involving continuous, eternal torture.
On another thread Hunt posted the part of revelations that deals with the second death.
Holding on to the ideas that hell is the place where we will be eternally tortured is very necessary to the belief...and it doesn't seem to matter what the book says...the need to hold the dogma as received prevents the consideration of what is written. The response at this point can be expected...we misread, we twisted it, we don't have the mind to understand it, or how dare you question God. The last two defensive positions will be we are too blind to see, or we are under the influence of satan.
I remain pleased they are in my world.
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| Apr 3, 2008 @ 8:35 PM |
The second death, not eternal torment in hell
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sail_dancer
Posts: 9,864
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Lance,
At least you found that the concept of eternal damnation is not contained in the scriptures.
A second death would surely be more in line with a fair god. but it does not support the fact that Jesus was sent to save "the world" or "all men".
One concept is that salvation will occur in three harvests, christianity misses this fact and so do you.
Let's start with 1 John:1 John 2:
1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. So Jesus' sacrifice was not only for believers but for the sins of the whole world. Notice that it also says "anybody" that sins.
I believe that Jesus planned this salvation to occur in three harvests. The concept of three harvests occur in the bible a number of times.The closest thing I can find in the NT concerning harvesting of spirits is found in 1 Corinthians:1 Corinthians 15
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits (the first harvest as I see it); afterward they that are Christ's at his coming (the second harvest as I see it).
24 Then cometh the end (the third harvest as I see it), when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Now skip down to:
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Now skip down to:
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Continued
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| Apr 3, 2008 @ 8:36 PM |
The second death, not eternal torment in hell |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 9,864
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“Then cometh the end (the third harvest as I see it), when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God”. This is where the so called second death comes in. The Lake of Fire is the second death. The Lake of Fire is god's all consuming fire which is used to purge and purify the resurected of their sins. The second death is that of sin itself, sin will no longer exist after this process. With the elimination of sin, death is also eradicated.
1 Corinthians 3
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? Notice all men must go through this process. Even those that built their life on weaker foundations of wood, hay, and stubble. God's all consuming fire will burn away all sin and leave only good works behind. And what happens to the spirit of those that had sin burnt away? They shall be saved; yet so as by fire. God will not allow even one of his children to perish or be tortured eternally.
Peace
[Edited on 4/3/2008 8:48 PM]
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| Apr 3, 2008 @ 8:38 PM |
The second death, not eternal torment in hell
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 1,092
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Sail, you bowl me over with your bible knowledge.
I have to ask.
Were you a minister, or at least devout Christain at one point?
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| Apr 3, 2008 @ 8:42 PM |
The second death, not eternal torment in hell |
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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Sail is one smart cookie
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| Apr 3, 2008 @ 8:42 PM |
The second death, not eternal torment in hell
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BandTMom
Posts: 38,041
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I believe Sail is still a devout Christian..just one who thinks outside of the book. 
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| Apr 3, 2008 @ 8:43 PM |
The second death, not eternal torment in hell |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 9,864
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Lance,
I was born and raised christian but my research of the bible caused me to look at things differently from other christians. I no longer consider myself a christian but a follower of Jesus' Way.
I have more information on this line of thinking if you are interested.
Peace
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| Apr 3, 2008 @ 8:44 PM |
The second death, not eternal torment in hell
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12knots
Posts: 6,400
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On No! Oh No! Sail is a Christian... God forbid!!!!! Ooops I mean.... by the Buddhas tooth forbid! 
Looks like a cross between Old Father Time, Horatio Hornblower and Gandalf the Wizard
Al'right mate?
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| Apr 3, 2008 @ 8:47 PM |
The second death, not eternal torment in hell |
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BandTMom
Posts: 38,041
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I hope Sail knew what I meant.
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| Apr 3, 2008 @ 9:07 PM |
The second death, not eternal torment in hell
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sail_dancer
Posts: 9,864
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Of course I did Mom. I have no regrets that I was raised christian. It was a stepping stone to where I find myself now in this moment.
One thing I have learned is to follow the path your heart takes you. Trust your instincts and never fail to question so called truths you hold. What may be truth today may change tomorrow.
We can only do our best to live life as prior Masters (I consider Jesus a Master) have in hope that the spark of absolute truth may some day ignite in us. The more I look into it, absolute truth will be found in an instant, like a switch turning on a light. The trick is figuring out which switch to throw.
Peace
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| Apr 3, 2008 @ 10:00 PM |
The second death, not eternal torment in hell |
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 1,092
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I no longer consider myself a christian but a follower of Jesus' Way. Uhm, forgive my ignorance (somebody get Hammer on the hot line!!!) but I do not understand the difference.
Actually, I am sort of similair.
I am a Christian, but I don't hold with the OT's version of God.
The God I know it is about love and compassion, not wrath and vengance.
I think the OT was messed up. God hated Esau. A guy steals a necklace so you kill not only him, but his wife and kids, on and on.
You call a plumber when your pipes are broken. I think Yeashua came because religion was broken.
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| Apr 3, 2008 @ 10:04 PM |
The second death, not eternal torment in hell
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sealacamp
Posts: 3,681
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If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
And this entire diatribe refers to Christians not every person on earth. It also refers to the fact that only God is good and none of us are. In which case only that which we have built with Christ will remain. All else will be consumed. Christ referred to the second death but He also referred to the eternal lake of fire that never goes out. I think that what ever awaits the after life is not entirely known. What is known is that there will be punishment and reward. The reward remains unknown fully just as the punishment remains unknown fully. However you may assume what ever you like.
S
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| Apr 3, 2008 @ 10:19 PM |
The second death, not eternal torment in hell |
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 1,092
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Well, the Univeralists point to this verse, and there is another one in Galations, that seems to say that Yeashua's death on the cross saved everyone, not just the believer.
The overwhelming majority of scripture points the other way.
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| Apr 3, 2008 @ 10:43 PM |
The second death, not eternal torment in hell
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Angel54214
Posts: 18,174
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1 John 2:
1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
So Jesus' sacrifice was not only for believers but for the sins of the whole world. Notice that it also says "anybody" that sins.
John was not writing to the world in his letters, he was writing to the churches that he was Elder of in Ephesius, (names he mentions in his letters were members of these churches; read Acts). Notice....he begins his letter to MY DEAR CHILDREN.
John also says...
John 3:
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
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| Apr 3, 2008 @ 11:07 PM |
The second death, not eternal torment in hell |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 9,864
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Lance,
You call a plumber when your pipes are broken. I think Yeashua came because religion was broken. I agree with you but not with the christian dogma that has been built around Jesus.
From my posts you have a idea of my beliefs but not all my beliefs.
I believe that Jesus was a special man, a son of god like we all are. Jesus came to remind us that we are god's children and about the kingdom that is awaiting our return.
The OT and Jesus himself tells us that "Ye are all gods". Notice how this is presented in scripture. The word "gods" is not capitalized. It is not the same as "God" who is the father.
We are all part of the god family and are one with the Father. Jesus tells us that if we follow him we will do things greater than he did.
Jesus because he was only a man (as you and I) proved that man is not hopelessly evil by nature (as most christians believe) but that we are able to become perfect "as the Father is perfect".
Christians won't believe what Jesus told us. They insist that man cannot become perfect "as the Father is perfect" so they had to make up the story that Jesus is God. This caused a problem because there is only supposed to be one god. So they invented the unscriptural concept of the trinity. This way they could worship three gods without breaking the commandments.
I can go on and on about why I will not call myself christian.
Peace
[Edited on 4/3/2008 11:13 PM]
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| Apr 3, 2008 @ 11:15 PM |
The second death, not eternal torment in hell
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Angel54214
Posts: 18,174
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I can go on and on about why I will not call myself christian.
and Peter denied Christ 3 times... 
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| Apr 3, 2008 @ 11:39 PM |
The second death, not eternal torment in hell |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 9,864
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Angel,
not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world So how does his audience in any way change the meaning of his words? He says "not only for ours" (his audience) "but for the sins of the whole world.
Explain why you feel that "the sins of the whole world" is not what he meant.
In response to your John 3 quote, it is based on what version of the bible you use.
I prefer to check the literal versions when it come to any mention of "condemnation" or "eternal punishment".
This is what that verse reads in Young's Literal Translation, other literal translations agree with it:16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.
17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;
18 he who is believing in him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
No mention of condemnation or punishment of any form. Big difference between "judged" and "condemned" the translator must have been christian and wanted to include his own interpretation.
Peace
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| Apr 3, 2008 @ 11:45 PM |
The second death, not eternal torment in hell
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sail_dancer
Posts: 9,864
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Angel,
and Peter denied Christ 3 times
Stop changing what I post. I never said I denied Jesus, I said "I will not call myself christian".
I deny your christian dogma and bloodthirsty concept of "The Good News".
Like I said many times. You are a good researcher but you loose it when you cannot repute the verses I post.
Peace
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| Apr 3, 2008 @ 11:49 PM |
The second death, not eternal torment in hell |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 9,864
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Seal,
You are blinded by your dogma and twist scripture to try to support it.
Face it! The scripture I posted pokes holes in your dogma and you just can't accept it.
Peace
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