| Apr 6 @ 8:37 AM |
Salvation or the gift of Eternal Life is not difficult
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ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 4,180
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Many would have you believe that in order to receive the gift of Eternal Life, there are many things that must be done before a person qualifies.
Some would have you believe that everyone, no matter what, receives Eternal Life.
This is totally untrue.
John 3:16, which I'm sure most people in North America have heard. Jesus speaking--"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have Eternal Life."
Now I confess that I am one of those who debates many of the finer points of Christianity.
That is in my desire to know Him more completely.
But all that is necessary to receive Eternal Life is the belief that Jesus is the Son of God. Believe this and Eternal Life is yours.
It's that simple.
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| Apr 6 @ 8:44 AM |
Salvation or the gift of Eternal Life is not difficult |
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sealacamp
Posts: 3,154
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That is the problem SOC. The very simple nature of Christ coming to us eludes most people. And even in the book of acts there were only two things that the church in Jerusalem asked other believers to adhere to. So you are correct but many just can't believe that things can be that simple with God. But as the scriptures tell us "With God all things are possible."
S
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| Apr 6 @ 9:52 AM |
Salvation or the gift of Eternal Life is not difficult
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 835
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But all that is necessary to receive Eternal Life is the belief that Jesus is the Son of God. Believe this and Eternal Life is yours.
I agree
Question: For people who do not do that, how could they suffer forever in hell? To suffer eternally, you have to live eternally.
Without eternal life, you perish.
"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have Eternal Life."
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| Apr 6 @ 12:07 PM |
Salvation or the gift of Eternal Life is not difficult |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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SOC,
John 3:16, which I'm sure most people in North America have heard. Jesus speaking--
"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have Eternal Life." But all that is necessary to receive Eternal Life is the belief that Jesus is the Son of God. Believe this and Eternal Life is yours. First off, why do you think that this verse says that you must believe that Jesus is the son of god? Could the words "whoever believes in him" mean believe in his teachings and doctrines?
Christians want to interpret scripture to say that you must accept Jesus not only as the son of god, but also as their savior. They keep trying to add things to allow them to sin and still be allowed entry into god's kingdom.
That is not what scripture tells us.
Matthew tells us:Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Matthew 5:48) Jesus was teaching us how to groom ourselves to be spiritually perfect. Why would he do this if all he knew that he would be our savior and we would enter god's kingdom by just accepting him as our savior?
Then we have 1 John that tells us:
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. (1 John 4:18) If this is the case, why would christians believe that Jesus would preach that mankind should fear eternal damnation? Based on Jesus' teachings, if you fear eternal damnation, then you will never be "made perfect in love". Explain why Jesus would intentionally make it more difficult for people to attain the perfection he taught.
Even Paul says that his purpose was to groom mankind so that man can be presented to the Father as perfect:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily. (Colossians, 1) (KJV) Where is there any mention of accepting Jesus as the son of god, or recognizing Jesus as your savior?
Was Jesus born a god? Was Jesus born perfect and without sin?
Here is what the christian bible tells us:
"For it became Him, for Whom are all things, and by Whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the Captain of their salvation prefect through suffering" (Heb. 2:10). Even Jesus was not perfect at birth, He had to become "perfect" through suffering. This tells you that Jesus could not have been a god in any way during his life since a god by definition is perfect, Jesus was not.
More scriptural verse that supports that Jesus was not perfect:
"Though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered. And being made perfect, He became the Author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him" (Heb. 5:8-9). Now how do we "obey" Jesus? By believing he is god's son? By accepting him as our Lord and savior? Think again people!
We must look upon Jesus as "the Author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him". In other words we must follow Jesus' teachings to attain salvation.
Based on the scriptures I quoted in this post, it is obvious that an intergal part of Jesus' teachings was how mankind could attain perfection in god's eyes. This is something that scattered throughout the scriptures and has the same message in each.
For christians to reject, or be blind to this message is ignorance. Christian dogma has clouded many things about Jesus and his teachings. This is one of the important ones.
I suggest anyone that believes that all they have to do is "believe that Jesus is the son of god" and "that Jesus is your Lord and savior", start to reread the NT with an open mind focusing on the words associated with Jesus.
Peace
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| Apr 6 @ 12:46 PM |
Salvation or the gift of Eternal Life is not difficult
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 835
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First off, why do you think that this verse says that you must believe that Jesus is the son of god? Could the words "whoever believes in him" mean believe in his teachings and doctrines? Well that is possible, but if that was what was meant, I would think the wording would be different.
Where is there any mention of accepting Jesus as the son of god, or recognizing Jesus as your savior?
Was Jesus born a god? No. He was born human under non-human (immaculate conception) circumstance. He also dies under non-human circumstance. I guess if you typify him as a God, it depend on how you define God.
Was Jesus born perfect and without sin? Yes, according to the bible. If you throw that out, then who is to say that he was perfect, or that he existed at all.
Based on the scriptures I quoted in this post, it is obvious that an intergal part of Jesus' teachings was how mankind could attain perfection in god's eyes. This is something that scattered throughout the scriptures and has the same message in each. I don't think we can get there while we are of this world. We can only get there after we have been transformed.
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| Apr 6 @ 1:17 PM |
Salvation or the gift of Eternal Life is not difficult |
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ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 4,180
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Why cloud-up the very simple act of receiving salvation?
That is the essence of what this thread was meant to be about.
Why must something so simple be turned into anything so complicated?
Have we been visited by an emissary of confusion again??
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| Apr 6 @ 1:27 PM |
Salvation or the gift of Eternal Life is not difficult
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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Lance,
I posted:Was Jesus born perfect and without sin? You replied:Yes, according to the bible. If you throw that out, then who is to say that he was perfect, or that he existed at all.
But as I quoted, Hebrews does not support your belief. If Jesus were perfect from birth, why would he have to be "made perfect through suffering"?
Seems you want to ignore this message. I also posted a second quote of scripture that supported my first. I do not accept scripture unless it can be supported by other scripture.
I don't think we can get there while we are of this world. We can only get there after we have been transformed. Jesus' teachings were to instruct us on how to be perfect in the Father's eyes so that we can enter ther kingdom. Similar to a Buddhist's belief about awakening and Nirvana. He also was proof that a man, with no godly power or gift, was able to acheive perfection.
Christianity preaches that Jesus was perfect and a man/god, because they wanted to support their dogma that man is basically evil and needs the church to introduce them to a savior. It is the controling of the masses through fear.
Christianity has done Jesus a disservice since they are basically teaching that Jesus could not have acheived perfection without god's special handling. Jesus should be given full credit for what he accomplished. Buddhist do not hide the fact that Buddha was a man that acheived awakening and Nirvana. But then again Buddhists do not rely on preaching fear to enroll it's members.
Wake up and give Jesus the credit for his awsome accomplishment. Don't diminish what this truly outstanding man attained.
Christianity realized that they had to come up with a dogma that would first put mankind down so that their church would be needed to lift them up again. Preaching the truth about Jesus would not allow them to rule by fear since Jesus did it without the need for religion.
Christianity also realized that if they preached that people had to attain perfection as Jesus did, many people would not want to put in the effort necessary. So they added to their dogma the sacrifice of Jesus for our sins. They now can sell "accept Jesus as your savior" and you are automatically saved. Some sects even preach that you cannot loose salvation once converted.
The reason that christianity has such a bloody past is that they do not preach attaining "perfection in love" but "persecution in god's name".
Peace
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| Apr 6 @ 1:40 PM |
Salvation or the gift of Eternal Life is not difficult |
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,539
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Sail,
Your post reminds me when He was asked where should we worship, on the mountain or in the temple?...he answered, There would come a time when man will not worship on the mountain or in the temple, he would worship in his heart, in spirit and truth.
We are far from there I thinkand have much to learn about applying the book's principles in our daily living...but we have plenty of time.
[Edited on 4/6/2008 1:52 PM]
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| Apr 6 @ 2:02 PM |
Salvation or the gift of Eternal Life is not difficult
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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SOC,
I'll answer each of your questions in order.
Why cloud-up the very simple act of receiving salvation? Salvation is not the simple concept that the christian church claims.
That is the essence of what this thread was meant to be about. You opened this thread to remarks about salvation not being simple by your OP first three sentences:Many would have you believe that in order to receive the gift of Eternal Life, there are many things that must be done before a person qualifies.
Some would have you believe that everyone, no matter what, receives Eternal Life.
This is totally untrue. My response was to this statement. Where did I go off this topic?
Why must something so simple be turned into anything so complicated? Because that is what the bible says and I thought that christianity's dogma was supposed to be based on scripture.
Have we been visited by an emissary of confusion again?? The only confusion is among christians on what to believe. False dogma just leads to more false teachings. Read the verses I posted and give me your interpretation on what they say. Point out how they support your salvation dogma.
You posted all these questions to try and evade the information I provided. You also reverted to taking a pot shot at me again. 
Peace
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| Apr 6 @ 2:32 PM |
Salvation or the gift of Eternal Life is not difficult |
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Angel54214
Posts: 14,074
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Hi everyone! 
I've been reading and re-reading all the posts here for a while today. I decided to sit back and really think and reason Servant's chosen topic of Salvation and Eternal Life.
I thought of all the millions of people that have lived and died starting from Adam and Eve as the bible tells us and great books we quote scriptures from. I thought about God and his divine purpose for creating human beings. I thought about Jesus, who came from the bossom of God the Father, and always was with him.
One important conclusion from all these thoughts that came to me on "Eternal Life" being a gift from God, is it is gift to all humankind and was freely given as "Universal." Adam and Eve had this gift, but the whole truth of Salvation was given to them not as a gift; but to be given through obedience to God that gave the universal gift of "Eternal Life."
Adam and Eve forfeited their choice of Salvation through disobedience of God. They separated themselves by distrusting; How else would they learn if they did not obey the tempter, satan and obey him and believe in his words over God's. They did not have the full understanding of life or death. So the disobedience was an action they chose to take, which then became later called "sin."
Through their act of sin, which finalized their distrust and loss of heart with God, they went into judgment; was judged by God and they were sentenced to suffering, struggles, sorrows, and then finally death.
I have more to share, at a later post. 
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| Apr 6 @ 3:11 PM |
Salvation or the gift of Eternal Life is not difficult
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hunt4luv
Posts: 1,234
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Angel 
sail though we butt heads much of the time You have given Some very true insight
into the poison of the doctrine of eternal security. And it is poison, It teaches people not to grow up in god and that they can excuse away sinful lifestyles while
claiming to be Christians. believing is an action we show if we are believing by our walk and our obedience and relationship to God.
Sail Adam was born perfect but failed the tests of temptation. Christ was born perfect and passed the tests he was purity personified in love and example
he was the perfect sacrifice because he never fell as Adam did. he was the second Adam. The hope of man and he didn't let us down. He never embraced selfishness
and self centeredness.
The three temptations. were all connected to self issues that have to be overcome in our lives. the wilderness prepares us for these tests. If we fail we go through them again. A week Christianity will never succeed in following Christs example.
only through a right relationship to God will a man have the strength to subdue the earth and rise above his carnal nature.
Soc You know what I think of this subject so I'm gonna tell it like it is . unconditional eternal security is a Lie of the devil and it has been swallowed by many who are unwilling to grow up in Christ. They are unwilling to Follow his example In action. This keeps them drinking the Milk of Gods wisdom and embracing doctrines of men and religion over a True Relationship with God.
He said CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY WHOM YOU WILL [/B]SERVE.[B]
Notice he said serve not CLAIM to believe in while Excusing the sin they are embracing in their lives away.
[Edited on 4/6/2008 3:50 PM]
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| Apr 6 @ 3:43 PM |
Salvation or the gift of Eternal Life is not difficult |
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Angel54214
Posts: 14,074
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I believe Salvation is acceptance through the "heart."
Romans 10:
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
All else is outward confession and works, like Baptism, Repentance, obeying the Commandments, etc. which are the proofs of our hearts in righteousness.
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| Apr 6 @ 3:48 PM |
Salvation or the gift of Eternal Life is not difficult
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hunt4luv
Posts: 1,234
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And what comes from the heart will show in our actions.
These people honer me with their lips but their hearts are far from me.
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| Apr 6 @ 4:20 PM |
Salvation or the gift of Eternal Life is not difficult |
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ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 4,180
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Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus speaking-- "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His throne in heavenly glory. 32--All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the peoples one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33--He will put the sheep on His right and the goats on His left.
34--"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35--For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in. 36--I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37--"Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38--When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39--When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40--"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth. whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me'.
41--Then He will say to those on His left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42--For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43--I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44--"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, or did not help you?''
45--"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46--"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.' " This is only meant as a fictional story I believe though. But of note is the fact that Jesus spoke of eternal punishment. Why wouldn't He just have said that they would die...cease living?
Again in Matthew 18:8. Although I do not believe that this need be interpretted literally either. My point is that the author chose to mention that the duration of one's incarceration in Hell would be eternal. "If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire."
I believe this is another fictional story. Wouldn't the possibility of experiencing punishment of this nature be severe enough if the duration were much briefer? The prospect of enduring the furnaces of Hell would be enough for me, even if I were to believe I'd be sent there only for an afternoon--if I were caught doing something bad.
Why bother using the word etenal? (Unless it was reflective of reality.)
Jude 7--Here Jude is speaking of Sodom + Gomorrah and the surrounding towns. "In a similar way, Sodom + Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality + perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Something of note here. As I was searching for places where eternal fire or everlasting punishment were employed, I could not find anything in the O.T. When God's anger was more violently displayed.
Only in the N.T. ,since the arrival of Jesus Christ, was the possibility of eternally suffering mentioned.
Could this suggest that God's righteous anger will be temporarily placated by the love of Jesus? So that people have been given until much later in their life to choose their eternal destination?
Is the great love of Jesus Christ enough to delay the Father's righteous anger a little bit?
(This is only a thought that's occurring to me now. So please don't think that you'll offend me in any way if you disagree. A civilized tone is always appreciated though.  )
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| Apr 6 @ 4:46 PM |
Salvation or the gift of Eternal Life is not difficult
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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Hunt,
Christ was born perfect and passed the tests he was purity personified in love and example he was the perfect sacrifice
Hebrews tells us that Jesus had to be made perfect. That means he was not born perfect or godly. These are not my words but the words of your bible."For it became Him, for Whom are all things, and by Whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the Captain of their salvation prefect through suffering" (Heb. 2:10).
and
"Though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered. And being made perfect, He became the Author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him" (Heb. 5:8-9).
Jesus was not born perfect and since he was not perfect could not have been God.
Peace
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| Apr 6 @ 4:54 PM |
Salvation or the gift of Eternal Life is not difficult |
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,539
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Sail,
Jesus was not born perfect and since he was not perfect could not have been God .
I sense that his realizing his true nature as a son of God occurred in steps decribed as anointings. The ancient path to kingship in both the Semite and Egyptian history was from sheperd, to prophet, to priest, to king. These steps are visible in the story of Jesus. Then at death he would live on as a result of these changes.
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| Apr 6 @ 5:00 PM |
Salvation or the gift of Eternal Life is not difficult
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Angel54214
Posts: 14,074
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I gree uncrazy...and in the end, Jesus was to be lifted up as he was like Moses lifted up the brass serpant in the wilderness. Jesus repeated this a few times about being lifted up; between earth and heaven upon the cross.
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| Apr 6 @ 5:42 PM |
Salvation or the gift of Eternal Life is not difficult |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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SOC,
I thought that God didn't change? Seems you only think he changes when trying to push your dogma. You are right eternal punishment is not an OT concept. The Jews do not believe in eternal punishment and the OT is Jewish scripture not christian. Why would god have not warned the Jews about eternal punishment?
The Greek NT scriptures do not contain the Greek word for "eternal" either. The christian translators creating the english version of the bible from the greek improperly used the word "eternal". The correct translation should be "eonian" which has a beginning and end. What does "eonian" actually mean, I have no idea. I'm still trying to understand it. The only thing I do know that it has a "beginning and end" so could not be eternal.
Notice that Jude 7 is speaking of Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns as being examples of eternal fire. Please show me where Sodam and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns are still burning. Doesn't "eternal" mean neverending? So these fires should still be burning today and continue to burn into eternity. I would think that if they were still burning we would know it. They would be considered one of the 10 wonders of the world if they were still burning.
I am just trying to give an example to show that the word "eternity" is used incorrectly in the english version of the bible. It is part of the dogma that preaches eternal damnation which was invented by the christian church fathers.
Check it out yourself. There are even some christian sites that say that the word eternal does not occur in the Greek NT scriptures. While you are checking that out also check out "hell". The Hebrew OT and Greek NT do not contain the hebrew or Greek words for "hell" either. "Hell" first came into being with the english version of the bible.
Christianity added many pagan practices and beliefs into the story of Jesus. "Eternal punishment" and "hell" are only two of many.
Peace
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| Apr 6 @ 9:21 PM |
Salvation or the gift of Eternal Life is not difficult
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Angel54214
Posts: 14,074
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Sail and Servant, I did run across this site below which I found worth the read. It is lengthy, but does explain a lot:
http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/immortality_resurrection/6.htm
Adding this one in case anyone is interested on a view of the O.T. Sheol:
http://www.ccel.us/buis.ch1.html
[Edited on 4/6/2008 9:27 PM]
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| Apr 6 @ 10:27 PM |
Salvation or the gift of Eternal Life is not difficult |
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ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 4,180
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Sail, I haven't yet been able to find anything to help make the principle of an everlasting place of torment defensible, so I guess I really should admit this.
(The being-happy-part about making such a confession is kinda hard to come by. But there you go.)
Thanks for teaching me something. 
Thanks for the links Angel. I'll look into them.
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