| Apr 15, 2008 @ 4:00 PM |
Gifts of the Spirit:Real or Delusion?
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Thor1960303
Posts: 3,555
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Many Christians talk about gifts of the spirit that the apostle Paul spoke of.They are supposedly gifts such as tongues,prophecy,wisdom and such.I was raised in church all my life.I've seen baptisms,laying on of hands,I've seen people babble in tongues, and personally,I think it's a mental illness.
For one thing,if people are supposed to receive wisdom,why aren't we finding people with third grade educations suddenly able to perform brain surgery?Why are the "tongues" mostly gibberish?Why do these folks who are so into faith healing still end up dead after they deny themselves medical treatment in lieu of prayer?Did these people just not have enough faith?Is there a reason why God doesn't prove himself with these things?Does he want people to doubt?If so,why?
I would like to hear from others here about their experiences and why they feel this is "real".
[Edited on 4/15/2008 4:11 PM]
[Edited on 4/15/2008 4:12 PM]
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| Apr 15, 2008 @ 4:31 PM |
Gifts of the Spirit:Real or Delusion? |
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bevrice
Posts: 11,141
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Thor, they are very real, and I love them.
I operate mainly in the word of knowledge. This is almost imperative for a counselor. I ask them things that amaze them, that they wonder how I would know, things that they have been holding back. This is part of the word of knowledge.
Now, I prayed for a woman that I worked for one time. She was unable to have children, she had tried for ten years, the doctors told her it was impossible for her to have one. I told her that she would give birth to a baby in a year's time. Guess what?
I gave some other instances in another thread, I will repeat those, if you want.
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| Apr 15, 2008 @ 4:49 PM |
Gifts of the Spirit:Real or Delusion?
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Thor1960303
Posts: 3,555
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Yes,Bev,I remember when you posted them.However,these are personal,anecdotal incidents that have nothing empirical to back them up.Again,here are my questions...
For one thing,if people are supposed to receive wisdom,why aren't we finding people with third grade educations suddenly able to perform brain surgery?Why are the "tongues" mostly gibberish?Why do these folks who are so into faith healing still end up dead after they deny themselves medical treatment in lieu of prayer?Did these people just not have enough faith?Is there a reason why God doesn't prove himself with these things?Does he want people to doubt?If so,why?
If these things are happening all the time,as you say,where's the news media?I would think,a man from rural Georgia with a second grade education,suddenly able to read,speak and write ancient Aramaic because he prayed for it the night before or a person's body being riddled with cancer(backed up by MRI's)and suddenly being clean and cured (again backed up by medical evidence) would have CNN,and certainly FOX news going live on the church lawn.Why can't you duplicate the gifts in a laboratory and produce these things on demand?Why can't you haul a bunch of Christians into a laboratory,hook them up to monitoring equipment and have them produce miracles for scientific verification?Supposedly didn't Elijah perform something similar with the prophets of Baal?
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| Apr 15, 2008 @ 4:56 PM |
Gifts of the Spirit:Real or Delusion? |
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bevrice
Posts: 11,141
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Lol, the gifts are given for the edification of the church. God gives you a choice, you can believe or not believe.
I didn't believe in tongues, either and the first time I heard them, I thought they were evil. I figured that maybe I should seek God about them. I asked Him if they are real to show me. I attended that church that night, the minister was praying in tongues and I knew every word he was saying. The reason I knew I was right was that he would break into English to finish a sentence all through his prayer.
I sat in a church service one time with a very spirit filled minister and knew every word he was going to preach before he preached it.
You just have to seek Him and experience his supernatural presence and abilities and power to know Him.
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| Apr 15, 2008 @ 4:58 PM |
Gifts of the Spirit:Real or Delusion?
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bevrice
Posts: 11,141
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The only kind of mental illness you could compare with tongues is a chemical imbalance in the brain.
Now you can't pray and ask for a chemical imbalance and get it, but you can pray and ask for tongues and receive them.
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| Apr 15, 2008 @ 5:04 PM |
Gifts of the Spirit:Real or Delusion? |
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Thor1960303
Posts: 3,555
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Lol, the gifts are given for the edification of the church. God gives you a choice, you can believe or not believe.
This in and of itself verifies their authenticity?What good would a gift such as healing do if it's only certain church members and it's not verified by medical science?I'm reminded of a scripture that chastises Christians for hiding talent under a bushel where the rest of the world (unbelievers) can see it.It seems to me that this God of yours does everything he can to hide his "gifts" from being truly appreciated and causing conversions.
After all he hid his savior in one of the most poorly documented times in history and in one of the most obscure places in the ancient world.
If he wants converts,he needs to work on his PR skills.
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| Apr 15, 2008 @ 5:06 PM |
Gifts of the Spirit:Real or Delusion?
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Thor1960303
Posts: 3,555
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Now you can't pray and ask for a chemical imbalance and get it, but you can pray and ask for tongues and receive them.
I can't imagine why a person would pray for a chemical imbalance, but from my experience with Christians,I would have to conclude that many of them already had severe chemical imbalances to begin with.
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| Apr 15, 2008 @ 5:11 PM |
Gifts of the Spirit:Real or Delusion? |
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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Good topic  Where are the rest of the wackos?
Its always stuff like this that convinces me Christians of this kind are the dumbest asses in the world. Not all Christians believe in this psycho nonsense so thats good but the rest are head cases like the toothless snake handlers and the tongues gibberish stupidity. These so called gifts are absolute bullshit. What you have mostly in the bible belt is a higher than normal divorce rate, sexual deviancy , a lack of education and trailer trash.
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| Apr 15, 2008 @ 5:17 PM |
Gifts of the Spirit:Real or Delusion?
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Thor1960303
Posts: 3,555
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Where are the rest of the wackos?
Now,now,Hammer,Mom always told me to be nice to the less fortunate.Supposedly there was an experiment done in Old testament times (some of you Bible scholars can look this up and help me out on details,been a long time since I studied this),where the prophet Elijah went head to head with the prophets of Baal.To make a long story short,the prophets of Baal lost,big time.
I just don't understand why apparently God allowed himself to be experimented with in OT times.There's the Elijah story, and there's the story where Moses supposedly did the trick with his staff,turning it into a snake,the Pharaoh's magicians were able to duplicate the trick,and Moses upstaged them.
What's different now?He suddenly figured people didn't need proof anymore?He got tired of repeating himself?
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| Apr 15, 2008 @ 5:19 PM |
Gifts of the Spirit:Real or Delusion? |
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Thor1960303
Posts: 3,555
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These so called gifts are absolute bullshit. What you have mostly in the bible belt is a higher than normal divorce rate, sexual deviancy , a lack of education and trailer trash.
What's even scarier is an educated person that believes this nonsense.These are the ones you see organizing the rest of the mindless dolts and sticking their noses in politics and such.
Idiots like John Hagee come to mind.
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| Apr 15, 2008 @ 5:40 PM |
Gifts of the Spirit:Real or Delusion?
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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What's even scarier is an educated person that believes this nonsense. They're selectively educated in areas that don't conflict with their religious beliefs. You're not going to find a religious person learned in philosophy (except selected areas), sciences such as physics, anthropology and psychology (a few pretend). I've noticed looking at curriculum's of religious colleges like Liberty University and Bob Jones they are limited. There are of course exceptions to what they major in but they then find themselves juggling their beliefs and holding multiple conflicting opinions. The radical suicidal Muslims all had college degrees in engineering and architecture which didn't clash with their belief they would be meeting 72 virgins after dying. Selective reasoning is a religious person's safety mechanism not to deal with the resulting cognitive dissonance. They find ways to justify their irrationality in these areas. Mental illness doesn't discriminate either. I don't think its always easy unless they become so filled with ego and megalomania which is often the case.
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| Apr 16, 2008 @ 11:34 AM |
Gifts of the Spirit:Real or Delusion? |
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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Interesting here no credible Christian posted anything.
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| Apr 16, 2008 @ 11:39 AM |
Gifts of the Spirit:Real or Delusion?
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yashaenka
Posts: 10,289
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Sigh I often thought Bev was Way out there, but now I know she is Way, Way out there. 
I operate mainly in the word of knowledge. This is almost imperative for a counselor. Quick someone please explain I am at a loss..
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| Apr 16, 2008 @ 11:54 AM |
Gifts of the Spirit:Real or Delusion? |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 10,218
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Now you can't pray and ask for a chemical imbalance and get it, but you can pray and ask for tongues and receive them. Why not? What is the difference between that and praying for god to cure your cancer?
Peace
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| Apr 16, 2008 @ 11:59 AM |
Gifts of the Spirit:Real or Delusion?
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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Quick someone please explain I am at a loss.. Haven't we had enough examples of what delusions are? Yet what is pathetic is there are others like that and all too common. They are almost always religious fanatics or psych patients. If your delusions are religious then the church supports you. Hallucinations too.
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| Apr 16, 2008 @ 4:00 PM |
Gifts of the Spirit:Real or Delusion? |
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Thor1960303
Posts: 3,555
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If your delusions are religious then the church supports you. Hallucinations too
I think what needs to happen at some point,is a family member of someone who has a mental illness and is delusional and has hallucinations,AND belongs to a church that exacerbates their condition by giving credibility to their hallucinations,needs to sue the crap out of one of these churches for causing more damage.
That would set a precedent and maybe then some of these deluded,sick people would seek help.
I know if I ever heard voices inside my head or saw something that wasn't there,the first place I would go would be to a shrink,not a pastor.
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| Apr 16, 2008 @ 10:18 PM |
Gifts of the Spirit:Real or Delusion?
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bevrice
Posts: 11,141
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Thor, it is not a voice in your head, but an unexplainable still, silent, voice. You have to experience it to know what I am talking about.
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| Apr 16, 2008 @ 10:21 PM |
Gifts of the Spirit:Real or Delusion? |
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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Auditory hallucinations can sound like they're in your head or away from your head. They can have sound or feel like thoughts entering your mind but not your own. They're perceptual distortions but you wouldn't know that since you're not a psychologist.
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| Apr 16, 2008 @ 10:23 PM |
Gifts of the Spirit:Real or Delusion?
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uncrazy
Posts: 2,618
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I thought it was the still, quiet voice...
If the still, silent voice is there and I hear something it is probably me talking...saying it must be God again.
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| Apr 16, 2008 @ 10:26 PM |
Gifts of the Spirit:Real or Delusion? |
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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That would set a precedent and maybe then some of these deluded,sick people would seek help. Such aberrated behavior may be taken as normal religious passion. That is why nuts fit in a church environment.
http://www.uchc.edu/ocomm/newsarchive/news04/dec04/religiosity.html
And, in some fundamentalist environments, symptoms of mental illness can appear normal: Obsession over a religious leader can be interpreted as religious fervor, and delusions can be interpreted as religious visions.
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