| May 2 @ 1:14 PM |
Understanding the Devil
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 835
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The verse that deals with Satan's fall as well as 1/3 of the angels is:
Revelation 12
1. A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
2. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.
3. Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads.
4. His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born.
5. She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.
6. The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
7. And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.
8. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.
9. The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
10. Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.
11. They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.
12. Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short."
13. When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.
14. The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach.
15. Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent.
16. But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
17. Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring--those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
Here is the thing that bugs me about this. The devil is certainly wicked, but no one thinks he is stupid. How did he presume to do battle against God with a third of the angels behind him?
It can only be one of two things.
1. He understimated the power of God
2. He was so arrogant he led a futile battle
3. He believed in his cause so much he led a futile battle
Did the devil not know he was destined to lose? That seems unlikely. But, if he knew, why would he do it?
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| May 2 @ 1:17 PM |
Understanding the Devil |
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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Rolling Stones - Sympathy for the Devil  - Bridges to Babylon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpNoniDH6IY
  
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| May 2 @ 1:37 PM |
Understanding the Devil
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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Lance,
That is exactly why I don't believe the devil exists. He was created by religion as a barrier between us and God so that the church could control its sheeple through fear.
Peace
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| May 2 @ 2:06 PM |
Understanding the Devil |
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kattsmeow
Posts: 21,280
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2. He was so arrogant he led a futile battle
Haven't we seen this down through history too by men who wanted it all?
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| May 2 @ 2:42 PM |
Understanding the Devil
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loisday
Posts: 1,333
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I agree, Katt.
I also believe that he is powerless...............
Like many.............he's too stupid to know it......... 
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| May 2 @ 4:26 PM |
Understanding the Devil |
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kattsmeow
Posts: 21,280
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I think satan really thinks he can win.
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| May 2 @ 4:31 PM |
Understanding the Devil
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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Christianity created the devil because it wanted to create fear in people. A supreme bogyman hobgoblin. The common ignorance of sad believer of fiction, fable and myth who synchronize their delusions in a religion.
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| May 2 @ 4:36 PM |
Understanding the Devil |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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Katt,
I think satan really thinks he can win. If Satan lures one persons spirit away from the Father, he has won and Jesus and the Father failed to accomplish their goal.
I do not believe that my God can fail, therefore all God's creation will return to his kingdom..........including Satan himself (if he exists).
Peace
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| May 2 @ 6:28 PM |
Understanding the Devil
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 835
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I do not believe that my God can fail, therefore all God's creation will return to his kingdom..........including Satan himself (if he exists). Wow. That is an interesting thought. I had to ponder it a while, but I think I disagree.
Here's why.
God wanted to make a sentient being, seperate from himself, with which he communte with. If God made the seperate being infallable, it would untlimately not be seperate, but merely an extension of himself. He added an element of randomization to the mix, so that man could fail. Unfortuntaley, as it turns out, all men fail. God then created a hybrid between himself and us. A human born of mortal woman from supernatural conception. This hybrid made a link to God possible so that, despite all failing, some might be saved.
Or maybe that's jsut my pain meds kicking in. 
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| May 2 @ 6:38 PM |
Understanding the Devil |
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 835
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Please allow me to introduce myself
Im a man of wealth and taste
Ive been around for a long, long year
Stole many a mans soul and faith
And I was round when jesus christ
Had his moment of doubt and pain
Made damn sure that pilate
Washed his hands and sealed his fate
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
But whats puzzling you
Is the nature of my game
I stuck around st. petersburg
When I saw it was a time for a change
Killed the czar and his ministers
Anastasia screamed in vain
I rode a tank
Held a generals rank
When the blitzkrieg raged
And the bodies stank
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name, oh yeah
Ah, whats puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah
I watched with glee
While your kings and queens
Fought for ten decades
For the gods they made
I shouted out,
Who killed the kennedys?
When after all
It was you and me
Let me please introduce myself
Im a man of wealth and taste
And I laid traps for troubadours
Who get killed before they reached bombay
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
But whats puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah, get down, baby
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
But whats confusing you
Is just the nature of my game
Just as every cop is a criminal
And all the sinners saints
As heads is tails
Just call me lucifer
cause Im in need of some restraint
So if you meet me
Have some courtesy
Have some sympathy, and some taste
Use all your well-learned politesse
Or Ill lay your soul to waste, um yeah
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, um yeah
But whats puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, um mean it, get down
Woo, who
Oh yeah, get on down
Oh yeah
Oh yeah!
Tell me baby, whats my name
Tell me honey, can ya guess my name
Tell me baby, whats my name
I tell you one time, youre to blame
Ooo, who
Ooo, who
Ooo, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Oh, yeah
Whats me name
Tell me, baby, whats my name
Tell me, sweetie, whats my name
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Oh, yeah
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| May 2 @ 6:57 PM |
Understanding the Devil
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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Lance,
God wanted to make a sentient being, seperate from himself, with which he communte with. If God made the seperate being infallable, it would untlimately not be seperate, but merely an extension of himself. He added an element of randomization to the mix, so that man could fail. I like your logic.
The problem is if God made man with faults in order to have entities that were different from him to commune with, why would he eternally condemn or kill all those that do not conform to his views, and accept only those that think as he does? He should have created what he wanted in the first place.
Peace
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| May 2 @ 7:15 PM |
Understanding the Devil |
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kattsmeow
Posts: 21,280
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Does the idea of God wanting his creation to love Him by choice instead of like a dog would love it's master come to mind here? 
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| May 2 @ 8:08 PM |
Understanding the Devil
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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Katt,
The christian religion makes god to be like Nero. Nero declared himself a God and killed anyone that disagreed with that fact. He also expected everyone to love him and if he felt they didn't he had them killed.
The God I believe in isn't a Nero, he loves everyone and would never act as christians believe he will.
Peace
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| May 2 @ 8:32 PM |
Understanding the Devil |
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kattsmeow
Posts: 21,280
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Sail:
The God I believe in isn't a Nero, he loves everyone and would never act as christians believe he will.
I really hope your right. I want everyone to go to Heaven.
In the mean time, I will keep on believeing what I do. 
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| May 2 @ 11:44 PM |
Understanding the Devil
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 835
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The God I believe in isn't a Nero, he loves everyone and would never act as christians believe he will. The universalists belive that way. I certainly don't have a problem if that is the way it is. There is verse in Galations that supports that idea. Many other verses point to a second death.
In a matter of speaking, he doesn't really kill anyone. Adam & Eve eventually died because they did not eat of the TOL. I look at God as being like a farmer. THe seeds that sprout, he moves to the next level. The seeds that wither and die didn't make it. All get an equal chance, however.
Paul is the one who wrote of the second death, and next to Yeashua, he is probably the single persone most resposible for the proliferation of Christianity. If he was just a loony old man having visions, then there would not be so many things like, having a number to buy and sell with, that match up to modern times.
If Hitler and Stalin get into heaven, that is cool with me. I have found that even the most deplorable people seem to have some qualities in them that you can like. If everyone gets in, than that will be a cool surprise. As far as what I personally believe, at this juncture, is that every dies, every one is raised, some get to eat of the TOL and get eternal life, others go to a second and final death.
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| May 3 @ 12:45 AM |
Understanding the Devil |
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Angel54214
Posts: 14,074
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Comes to light of meaning in Rev. 12, is Rev. 17:
1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
Babylon is the origin of the sun goddess, Ishtar. Compare with Rev. 12, verse 1. The church in Christ is referred to as the bride. Now compare this with Rome, which carries the origin of the sun goddess Ishtar and the sun worship symbol of Baal, the god of Canaan.
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/monstr.htm
http://www.tofm.org/papacy/sunworship.htm
The "moon" in Rev. 12, verse 1 represents the Jewish religion from the O.T. Hebrew oracles in days and weeks. They designed the Lunar Calendar and their celebrations revolve souly upon the seasons of the moon.
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| May 3 @ 4:41 PM |
Understanding the Devil
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j_goose
Posts: 1,952
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“The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.” (Gen 6:6)
Let's not forget that God makes mistakes....unless I missed something.
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| May 6 @ 9:33 AM |
Understanding the Devil |
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 835
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The problem is if God made man with faults in order to have entities that were different from him to commune with, why would he eternally condemn or kill all those that do not conform to his views, and accept only those that think as he does? He should have created what he wanted in the first place I think, possibly, he wanted something that could have failed but did not.
Sort of like playing cards. If you turn up aces everytime, it gets boring pretty quickly. The hands that make the game exciting, and that you remember and tell people about, are those hands that could have been bad, but came through for you.
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| May 6 @ 11:07 AM |
Understanding the Devil
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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Lance,
If you turn up aces everytime, it gets boring pretty quickly. And having a whole kingdom populated with entities that only agree with you (here we would call them "yes men") is also very boring. Is that your concept of heaven? Millions of people having one mind set? That would be my concept of hell.
Peace
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| May 6 @ 11:13 AM |
Understanding the Devil |
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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I don't think disagreement means anyone is wrong. Thats just another point view. They could all be wrong views. They could all be right too. The real problem happens when evidence shows a particular view is right or wrong and those on the wrong side won't make the correction like they're supposed to do. Falling in love with a point of view is what causes bloodshed. Its pretty much mostly those with the wrong views doing the killings. As they say, the devil is in the details.
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