| May 12 @ 8:22 AM |
Christianity and its weaknesses
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12knots
Posts: 6,404
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People love to tout their Christian faith but when questioned they sink deeper into dogma or denial.
Isnt this a problem?
When Christianity is questioned negatively the whining starts. Personally I would have thought this is the Golden Opportunity to address the issues and show the real ambiance of Christianity.
As far as i know when Jesus was questioned he respectfully replied back with his virtues.
Why dont Christians do the same?
Have they lost faith and trust in their beliefs or what? 
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| May 12 @ 8:38 AM |
Christianity and its weaknesses |
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eastham
Posts: 6,010
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Jesus warned never to build your faith on a foundation of sand. As you say, he answered his critics respectfully. He didn't ostracize non-Jews like the Samaritans.
There is a broad stripe of anti-intellectualism that seems to run through much of all public debate today. Very reminiscent of the kids on the school yard picking on the nerd. When Jesus urged people to have the faith of a child, he meant them to have the enthusiasm of a child, not the gullibility of a child.
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| May 12 @ 8:56 AM |
Christianity and its weaknesses
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,148
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True followers of Christ or the Way will readily answer questions, admit that they do not have all the answers and will do research and meditate on the questions they do not have answers for.
Christian dogma will never lead to spiritual maturity since it teaches that wisdom is not important only blind faith is.
As far as i know when Jesus was questioned he respectfully replied back with his virtues. Yes he did! But his responses were worded to cause man to think. He spoke in parables which when figured out provide directions not answers.
Why dont Christians do the same? Because they are mislead to believe that Jesus provided "answers".
Have they lost faith and trust in their beliefs or what? They have not lost faith or trust in their beliefs, they have been lead astray by their dogma which doesn't provide answers just unsubstantiated ideas.
I have high regard for the strength of faith displayed by christians. The problem is that "strenght of faith" is in dogma that directs that strength in the wrong direction.
Peace
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| May 12 @ 10:59 PM |
Christianity and its weaknesses |
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12knots
Posts: 6,404
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Sail,
this is an excellent point:
Christian dogma will never lead to spiritual maturity since it teaches that wisdom is not important only blind faith is.
I dont understand why, when the facts are presented with all the reasoning and logic, it isnt accepted.
Partly the reason why i made these posts to understand this phenomena so to be able to help these types of people out of their brain-washed view.
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| May 14 @ 2:07 AM |
Christianity and its weaknesses
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Angel54214
Posts: 13,254
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Sorry knotty, I been working very hard and haven't been here for a while. I do work long hours often helping my community and yes it is a job of jobs I get paid for.
People love to tout their Christian faith but when questioned they sink deeper into dogma or denial. This seems to be a topic of personalfied attributes, but touting is not something that is in my nature within or demonstrated in the outside world. Only through my charactoristics and contributions to my family and society I leave remnants by virtue and clarity defined as the person I am and not because of my beliefs.
When anything I choose to deny, is denied upon anything that my nature would not benefit as goodness and in a wholesome positive focus attribute.
I have already presented my piece on dogma previously; it will not change.
As far as i know when Jesus was questioned he respectfully replied back with his virtues.
Why dont Christians do the same? I believe this a 2 part compound with a statement and ending in a question.
Jesus when questioned, most of the time answered with a question respectfully, but sometimes firmly when need be. Jesus' answers were half corpereal and half spiritual; His messages were of divine deliverance.
Why don't Christians do the same? I don't know why all don't, I am just one small person in this big wide world and even the President would not have an answer to this question if it was asked him. Christians are people just like you; they work, they have families, they sleep, they eat, they feel pain, their bones break, they get sick, they die, they laugh and they smile. Their houses burn down, their cars break down, their money runs out and the rains flood them, the winds blow on them and the earth shakes beneath them.
The only difference is their belief; a belief in the one God who has been a God of promises and promised were kept. The one God that chastened when he said he would chaste and why in advance. The one God that still lives in the hearts and souls of billions of people around the world.
Sure there's been some that claim to be Christians in history; all over the news media flashing thier roledex watches and billion dollar cars and homes. But if you notice the outcome of them, they fell and some even many times; losing most of it; going to prison, leaving their families to defend for themselves and moving to other countries; constantly uprooting. They write books, make DVD's, sell a bi-product, run a public workshop for attention and the gullables follow. Most of them are so young and gullable with freedom to run to for they never had it before. They become groomed and attached.
I find much fault with this sort money building industry type tout christianity of claimants. Most see it...I see it. Many don't see it.
I taught my children well; I educated them on life way before they bit the freedom bell. I was a parent first and a best friend second. It is our responsibility to prepare them for the world and what is in it. It's our responsibility to introduce them to the ways of the world. Note: this my personal response, so any one that reads, please don't take it personal upon your own life you lead. Thank you.
Have they lost faith and trust in their beliefs or what? Again, I can not vouche for "they", only for myself. There were times I lost faith and trust...sure. It happens as we grow and experience life. When it did happen it wasn't from what anyone said to me or did to me. It was from my own let downs of myself; I call them drawbacks. Before we can become strong, we "must" experience weak. Sometimes it's easy to say, "I will never do that again." Sometimes we don't and then sometimes we do.
Most of the time I like to set small goals, then set a large goal in my life. I take time out examining my life to see what changes I should make or would like to make. I look towards my future and as getting older from the age I am now, I know I won't always be as vivrant and full of energy. I won't walk so fast or see and hear so clearly. Retirement is around the bend.
I have been constantly growing in my inner faith and beliefs. Been very much happy with how I turned out to this point in my life. That is the key word; happy. When I wasn't happy, I made change. Wanted something, I went after it until I got it. Worked hard for it. I am happy!
Just to end this post...this thread had made a reminess of past for me. Remembering when I lost my home to a fire; lost my Mom, my Dad and my sister all in one years time. I was Christian then if that makes any difference to anyone.
The thing is, we all have to put up with things we just don't like...things we just don't want to be around us personally. We don't like laws, but we have uphold them. For they were made for the lawless, and because of the lawless that they were made for, we also have to uphold them.
The End... 
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| May 14 @ 6:06 AM |
Christianity and its weaknesses |
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sealacamp
Posts: 2,925
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As far as i know when Jesus was questioned he respectfully replied back with his virtues.
Is that what He did every time to everyone? How little you know the very scriptures you want to explain.
But those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.
“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces. You won’t go in yourselves, and you don’t let others enter either.
“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn that person into twice the child of hell you yourselves are!
“Blind guides! What sorrow awaits you! For you say that it means nothing to swear ‘by God’s Temple,’ but that it is binding to swear ‘by the gold in the Temple.’ Blind fools! Which is more important—the gold or the Temple that makes the gold sacred? And you say that to swear ‘by the altar’ is not binding, but to swear ‘by the gifts on the altar’ is binding. How blind! For which is more important—the gift on the altar or the altar that makes the gift sacred? When you swear ‘by the altar,’ you are swearing by it and by everything on it. And when you swear ‘by the Temple,’ you are swearing by it and by God, who lives in it. And when you swear ‘by heaven,’ you are swearing by the throne of God and by God, who sits on the throne.
“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are careful to tithe even the tiniest income from your herb gardens,[g] but you ignore the more important aspects of the law—justice, mercy, and faith. You should tithe, yes, but do not neglect the more important things. Blind guides! You strain your water so you won’t accidentally swallow a gnat, but you swallow a camel!
“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are so careful to clean the outside of the cup and the dish, but inside you are filthy—full of greed and self-indulgence! You blind Pharisee! First wash the inside of the cup and the dish, and then the outside will become clean, too.
“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs—beautiful on the outside but filled on the inside with dead people’s bones and all sorts of impurity. Outwardly you look like righteous people, but inwardly your hearts are filled with hypocrisy and lawlessness.
“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you build tombs for the prophets your ancestors killed, and you decorate the monuments of the godly people your ancestors destroyed. Then you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would never have joined them in killing the prophets.’
“Don’t you hear all these charges they are bringing against you?” Pilate demanded. But Jesus made no response to any of the charges, much to the governor’s surprise.
No what you have said is not really the way it is and how someone responds is up to the holy spirit, something that you just don't get. So you are wrong in your assertion and don't understand what is going on or why nor do you understand the scriptures you claim to explain.
S
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| May 14 @ 6:43 AM |
Christianity and its weaknesses
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12knots
Posts: 6,404
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Angel, thank you for your excellent reply. You are a Christian and humanitarian.
I will read through all that you have said and reply back later.
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| May 14 @ 6:49 AM |
Christianity and its weaknesses |
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12knots
Posts: 6,404
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Seal:
Is that what He did every time to everyone? How little you know the very scriptures you want to explain.
You tell me. I dont wish to explain scripture. Thats too easy and please dont tell me what I know.
No what you have said is not really the way it is and how someone responds is up to the holy spirit, something that you just don't get. So you are wrong in your assertion and don't understand what is going on or why nor do you understand the scriptures you claim to explain.
In your view everyone is wrong who questions your view and you are the one that is right. When confronted and questioned you sink into snide remarks, accusations and insult.
YOU are NOT a Christian. Not at all. Because, you do not show any signs of Christ-like view. You do NOT have patients, common courtesy, compassion, respect and because of this absolutely no wisdom on the subject.
The only conclusion is that Christianity fails you. Are you the weakness or the scriptures the weakness I must ask?
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| May 14 @ 9:10 AM |
Christianity and its weaknesses
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,148
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Seal,
“Blind guides! What sorrow awaits you! For you say that it means nothing to swear ‘by God’s Temple,’ but that it is binding to swear ‘by the gold in the Temple.’ Blind fools! Hebrew doesn't have puctuation so it is almost impossible to determine exactly how Jesus delivered this message.
Jesus must be tending the fires of hell right now. Since:Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. He obviously is not following what he himself preached. I prefer to honor the Jesus that taught as Matthew 5:22 reveals.
Christians always try to claim that many things Jesus said were prophecies. They would never consider these as prophecies of their own future though:But those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.
“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces. You won’t go in yourselves, and you don’t let others enter either.
“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn that person into twice the child of hell you yourselves are! How would you describe the christian ego that insists that they know the only way to God? Would it be considered "exalting" or "humble"? I think most would consider it "exalting". So what does this tell you? Did I hear someone mumble: "Christians will be humbled"?
Christian dogma closes the door of the kingdom for all non believers. Because of this, what does Jesus say you should expect? Did I hear you wisper to yourself: "You won’t go in yourselves"?
Did christians cross the Atlantic, forcefully try to convert innocent Native Americans and destroy their culture? Did they not change Native Americans and force them to defend themselves against the white man and what they considered his false gods? Did christianity make North America a living hell for Native Americans? What did Jesus call people that do things like this? Did I hear another murmur from you: "the child of hell you yourselves are"?
I think christians should formulate exactly what Jesus tells us in the scriptures. There are many places in the bible where Jesus prophecises about christianity and its evils.
As Jesus said: "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear".
Peace
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| May 14 @ 11:43 AM |
Christianity and its weaknesses |
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ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 4,057
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Yes. Let's do as some do and follow whichever words of Jesus Christ suit us. (But not everything He said.)
And then let us either pervert or ignore the parts of the Word that also find disagreement with the lifestyle we have chosen to follow.
Yes...let's decide on which parts of the Bible to adopt--through an democratic system.
 
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| May 14 @ 12:00 PM |
Christianity and its weaknesses
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12knots
Posts: 6,404
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Yes...let's decide on which parts of the Bible to adopt--through an democratic system.
Thats what you have ALL been doing these past 2,000 years.
Quite a show to say the least 
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| May 14 @ 12:01 PM |
Christianity and its weaknesses |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,148
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SOC,
Yes. Let's do as some do and follow whichever words of Jesus Christ suit us. (But not everything He said.) The point should be to find an answer that fits all of Jesus' teachings, not just selective texts. Christians hide their heads in the sand when presented with Jesus' prophecies about the future and how he predicted current day christians to be no better than the Pharisees of his times. Christians are the ones that only select what they want from scripture. I have never shied away from addressing any scripture you questioned me on.
And then let us either pervert or ignore the parts of the Word that also find disagreement with the lifestyle we have chosen to follow. Why do you think what I posted is perverted? Support this statement by pointing out where you think I twisted Jesus' message in any way. Just because you chose a lifestyle, it doesn't mean that Jesus approved of the lifestyle you chose (even if it was in his name).
Yes...let's decide on which parts of the Bible to adopt--through an democratic system. I thought that you adopted the complete bible as your god's word. Then why do you refuse to see that christianity has become something that Jesus warned us about in many verses of the bible? It is you that tend to be selective in the verses you believe in, not me.
Peace
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| May 14 @ 1:42 PM |
Christianity and its weaknesses
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ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 4,057
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sail, I thought we had established something like a peace between us?
Why do you always think my words are focussed on you?
" I have never shied away from addressing any scripture you questioned me on." --sd
"Why do you think what I posted is perverted?" --sd
"Support this statement by pointing out where you think I twisted Jesus' message in any way" --sd
Perhaps you can see part of yourself or your beliefs reflected in my words. But as some of you incorrectly assume, I do not comb these threads looking for opportunities to type words exhibiting disagreement with you.
Too much joy exists in my life away from here.
When I'm not here, (at MatchDoctor), you rarely enter my mind. (Although I confess to repeating 15-20 names each morning in prayer. But en masse. Sail_Dancer follows Bev and Hammertime.)
In a way, this is related to the bit about how someone thinks that Christians should be consumed with the salvation of other individuals.
I do care about you Sail, but I'm not about to let you mess up the wonderful life I've been given. Sorry.
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| May 14 @ 2:13 PM |
Christianity and its weaknesses |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,148
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SOC,
I do care about you Sail, but I'm not about to let you mess up the wonderful life I've been given. Sorry. My post that started this exchange was in response to Seal. It is you who made the decision to enter the discussion. I didn't address you or mention you in my post.
Obviously what I posted upset you or ruffled your feathers.
My response to you carried my concern that because of the dogma you follow, you refuse to picture yourself in the negative light that Jesus based on his teachings sees you and other christians that allow their egos to take over their lives.
Read the quote provided by Seal (notice that I'm not the one that focused on this quote). If you cannot see that christian dogma and its practices are exactly the traits that Jesus teaches against, then you are beyond help and blind not because of your intellect but because you cannot face the fact that some of christianities teaching are actually against the Christ you love.
There is no need for prayer since we are all one in the Father. Some day you to will awaken to this fact. Untill then keep praying. The odds are that eventually something you pray for will seem to be an answer, even though it would have happen with or without that prayer. Instead of praying, why not look inside yourself, you may be pleasantly surprised at what you will find.
Peace
[Edited on 5/14/2008 2:47 PM]
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| May 14 @ 3:35 PM |
Christianity and its weaknesses
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ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 4,057
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"There is no need for prayer since we are all in the Father." --Sail_Dancer
What do you mean by this? Do you mean that prayer is unnecessary?
Why did Jesus find the topic of prayer important enough to instruct us how we should pray?
Matthew 6:5--"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6--But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7--And when you pray, do not keep babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8--Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him. 9--This, then, is how you should pray: 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name, 10--Your kingdom come, Your will be done on Earth as it is in heaven. 11--Give us today our daily bread. 12--Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors, 13--And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the Evil One. 14--For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15--But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.'"
Or as recorded in the Book of Luke, we are given an example, 6:12--"One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God."
And why then did Jesus find the act of prayer important enough to instruct His disciples later in Luke. 18:1--"Then Jesus told His disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up".
Later yet in the Book of Luke, 18:39--"Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and His disciples followed Him. 40--'Pray that you will not fall into temptation.' 41--He withdrew about a stone's throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42--'Father, if You are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.'"
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| May 14 @ 4:58 PM |
Christianity and its weaknesses |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,148
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SOC,
I meant that prayer as used by christians is not necessary. Prayer should be personal. Take place within you where your spiritual powers lie. It is not to ask favors and definately not to be intended to try and alter another's belief whatever it is. It is more like meditation. Recognizing the "spark" of god within which is your spirit and getting to know it. When you are one with your spirit, you are one with the Father. That is why Jesus tells us:Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him Why does Jesus tell us to pray alone and like this?'Our Father in heaven [his kingdom within us], hallowed be Your name, 10--Your kingdom come [let your spark shine so I can find it], Your will be done on Earth [within me] as it is in heaven [as I am within you]. It is similar to chanting practiced by other religions, which helps to get into deep meditation and in touch with that "spark" of god within you. It goes on to remind us to think of good things and not evil things since good thoughts relax you more and allow you to lower your physical defenses. It then reminds us:And lead us not into temptation [eliminate the distractions of this physical life], but deliver us from the Evil One[anything that may inhibit us of reaching our goal] I never said that prayer does not exist. I said that it was unnecessary (useless) if used as christians teach that it should be used.
Peace
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| May 14 @ 6:22 PM |
Christianity and its weaknesses
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ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 4,057
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No. That is not what you said.
This is what you did say in your naturally friendly tone.--"There is no need for prayer since we are all one in the Father. Some day you to will awaken to this fact." --Sail_Dancer
From your most recent post--
"It is not to ask favors and definately not to be intended to try and alter another's belief whatever it is."
Yet the words of Jesus disagree with you again. Matthew 5:43--"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbour and hate your enemy'. 44--But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45--that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous."
And again in the next chapter, 6:6--"But when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6--But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."
" It is not to ask favors..." --Sail_Dancer
Do any of your Bibles not contain this verse Sail?
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| May 14 @ 7:35 PM |
Christianity and its weaknesses |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,148
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SOC,
pray for those who persecute you, And what does this mean? Pray for their salvation? Pray that god strikes them dead? Pray that they just disappear? Pray that they change their ways? Pray that they will eventually get what they deserve?
When you pray their is a purpose. I feel that the use of pray in this verse is "wish well of" nothing specific. Especially with the way the verse ends:He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous." When Jesu said that God "causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good" and "sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous" he meant that god treated all people alike. So why would you have to pray to god for this enemy? The answer is that prayer is to your inner being to remind you to act as god does instinctively. The prayer is to ourselves to treat our enemies as god does.
Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. Does this say that God will answer your prayer? It says that you will be rewarded. I already gave you my take on what Matthew 6:6 means. Based on that, the reward is acheiving a deep meditative state.
"Pray" and "prayer" are used in many ways in the bible. Christians, because of their concept of a god that only conditionally loves, think that everytime prayer is used it means begging god to love them or to somehow change his mind. If a person is sick, god knows it. Your prayers are similar to the crowd at the Roman Forum calling to Caesar to spare the life of a valiant gladiator. Why do you think that god would take directions from people that he feels are "like dirty rags"? Do you really think that God would change his plans for his creation because you asked him to? Again your god was created by man and in man's image and likeness. You continually try to make god human. Caesar was human, God is spirit.
Prayer is putting yourself in a state where you are at one with god. Not to ask favors but to be awakened to things you currently are ignorant about. The learning is the reward of this type of prayer.
Peace
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| May 14 @ 7:45 PM |
Christianity and its weaknesses
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loisday
Posts: 1,338
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Prayer is putting yourself in a state where you are at one with god. Not to ask favors but to be awakened to things you currently are ignorant about. The learning is the reward of this type of prayer.
I believe that is beautiful..................
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| May 14 @ 7:47 PM |
Christianity and its weaknesses |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,148
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Thanks Lois! 
Peace
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