| Jun 6 @ 9:44 AM |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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Lance,
If I get sick, by all means, feel tp pray, but please, don't turn away the doctor. Anyone who does, is a murderer in my book.
This thinking is a problem. If prayer doesn't always work miracles, why would you even ask for prayers to be said? Do you think that prayers can influence god's will relating to your situation? If you do agree that prayer can influence god. by going to a doctor aren't you trying to overturn god's will?
Many people would say prayer can't hurt, but the truth is that prayer just doesn't work at all. If it did, there would be no need for christians to see doctors. If a christian does go to a doctor, aren't they just admitting that prayer is a crap shoot and that no matter what god wants, they want a doctor to overturn god's will?
Do you see where beliefs such as these are dangerous especially to people that are less rational than you are? By supporting these beliefs, christians in general are responsible for atrocities like this.
Peace
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| Jun 6 @ 9:47 AM |
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ForumMod
Posts: 1,280
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sail said:
What happened to Hammer's post?
What did it contain to warrant its deletion?
The MOD when deleting a post should posthis reason for doing so.
Peace
the mods do not and will not spend their time justifying deleted posts. if a post is deleted, it's done so for a valid reason and does not warrant further explaination or argument. 
just as a reminder, do not bring other members names into your posts ('your' meaning everyone), especially if they are not participants in the thread.
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| Jun 6 @ 9:48 AM |
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SweetNapaGuy
Posts: 4,565
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sail: Prayer does work, on occasion, in that it can influence the attitude of the person receiving the prayers. The improved outlook of the patient can make them heal faster.
That's the extent of it, though.
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| Jun 6 @ 9:56 AM |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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SNG,
sail: Prayer does work, on occasion, in that it can influence the attitude of the person receiving the prayers. The improved outlook of the patient can make them heal faster.
That's the extent of it, though.
So prayers are not directed to god for his intervention in the matter, it is only done to give the patient a positive outlook on things?
Then why call it prayer? Why address this prayer to god? Why not direct the prayer to the doctor whose hands the patient is in?
Based on your post, the prayer could be to Puff the Magic Dragon and the results would be the same.
Peace
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| Jun 6 @ 9:57 AM |
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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Well its got to be considered that anyone who promotes or supports such sick faith is themselves a psychopath. We can easily see those who reveal that openly. A child dies we see how thats responded to. A girl thinks she is going to die and we see what is told to her. We can see who those with a deranged religion will respond and its always to the destruction of that person because death is their true faith.
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| Jun 6 @ 9:59 AM |
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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sail: Prayer does work, on occasion, in that it can influence the attitude of the person receiving the prayers. The improved outlook of the patient can make them heal faster.
That's the extent of it, though. This is nothing more than self hypnosis. Its a self deception actually. Some people can be hypnotized into believing they are a chicken but no matter how hard they believe and try they still can't lay any eggs. When Christians show us they can lay eggs I will become one myself. I want mine scrambled.
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| Jun 6 @ 10:14 AM |
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 835
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If prayer doesn't always work miracles, why would you even ask for prayers to be said? I believe they do/can but you can't always take it for granted
Do you think that prayers can influence god's will relating to your situation? Yes I do. I really do. Sometimes, but not all the time. We don't gt everyting we ask for, but I really believe prayers can make a difference.
If you do agree that prayer can influence god. by going to a doctor aren't you trying to overturn god's will? Not really. Sometimes God intervenes directly, sometimes through other people, and sometimes not at all. We can never know which of the three we will get.
Many people would say prayer can't hurt, but the truth is that prayer just doesn't work at all. I disagree. I believe that my broher would b blind in one eye were it not for Mom's prayers.
If it did, there would be no need for christians to see doctors. If we automaitcally got everything we prayed for, that would be true. Doesn't work that way.
If a christian does go to a doctor, aren't they just admitting that prayer is a crap shoot. In a sense, yes. We are forbidden from tempting God. You don't jump off a cliff because God should save you. You don't refuse medication because you feel like God should heal you. If you try it, you are liable to be dissappointed.
Do you see where beliefs such as these are dangerous especially to people that are less rational than you are? Well, I think is like in college, when people used to tell me that D&D made people go crazy. My stance is that crazy people are crazy anyhow, no matter what religion or pastime they associate themselves with.
By supporting these beliefs, christians in general are responsible for atrocities like this. I don't think so. I don't blame the Wiccans for the crazy-ass devil worhsippers who commit blood sacrifices. Loony is loony. Whatever religion they pick, they are still going to be loony.
Good questions!
Thanks for allowing me a chance to offer my input.
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| Jun 6 @ 10:30 AM |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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Lance,
Not really. Sometimes God intervenes directly, sometimes through other people, and sometimes not at all. We can never know which of the three we will get. Sorry, but this answer is a cop out. Christians have been using it for years. When Jesus decided to heal someone, did he call for a doctor? If prayer doesn't produce its own miracle, then god guided the doctors in their cure. If the patient dies, it was god's will.
Christians always have answers but never answers that can be substantiated. They attribute everything to god in ways that always are positive and never negative.
As far as I'm concerned, all prayers fall into the last category ....... "sometimes not at all". If a cancer suddenly goes into remission christians will say that it was god's answer to a prayer. If a doctor cures a person christians will say that god healed the patient through the doctor. Notice all these claims cannot be proven in any way.
Peace
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| Jun 6 @ 10:31 AM |
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ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 4,180
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This morning I awoke with an new, (in some regards), attitude.
I had determined that I was going to try not engaging in bickering with H. or SD.
So now I have to revise my efforts to--"I will try to avoid any bickering concerning any of our own opinions.
Sail, I thought you had amended your spiritual belief system to "I will only believe those things that Jesus said. I will not believe in the dogma presented to us in the Bible."
Yet among the first posts to greet my eyes this morning were those in this thread.
" the truth is that prayer just doesn't work at all." --Sail_Dancer.
But this is certainly contrary to Jesus Christ's recorded beliefs.
Mark 11:20--Jesus speaking--"In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. 21--Peter remembered and said to Jesus, 'Rabbi, look! The fig tree You cursed has withered!' 22-'Have faith in God , Jesus answered, 'And I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself in the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes what he says will happen, it will be done for him. 24--Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25--And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.' " What is it I am not understanding correctly concerning your beliefs?
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| Jun 6 @ 10:32 AM |
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SweetNapaGuy
Posts: 4,565
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Based on your post, the prayer could be to Puff the Magic Dragon and the results would be the same.
Exactly. It's the belief of the patient, and the self-hypnosis that it causes, that can aid the patient in recovery. Doesn't matter if it's prayer groups at the local Baptist church, a hippie "kumbaya" party, a voodoo witchdoctor shaking chicken entrails over you, whatever. As long as you believe, it can aid in your recovery.
(Damn shame about those of us who are a little too grounded in reality, though. One of the few times that being ignorant can be an advantage...)
It's the same thing as giving people sugar pills and telling them that they're powerful pain suppressants. As long as you can convince the patient, they have been known to work. Maybe not in all instances, of course.
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| Jun 6 @ 10:33 AM |
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Angel54214
Posts: 14,074
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Mark 2:
16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?
17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
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| Jun 6 @ 10:35 AM |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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SNG,
Peace
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| Jun 6 @ 10:52 AM |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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SOC,
What is it I am not understanding correctly concerning your beliefs? Where did Jesus say that the Father and his kingdom resides?
Start the Jeopardy theme song ......Da Da Da Da, da da da .........
Time's up.
The answer is within yourself.
So what is prayer? It is reconciling things with yourself. It is a form of positive thinking that brings out the best in a person. Prayer is a lable for one's attempt to reach within themselves for what is needed for survival. Nothing more.
My reference to prayer was to the christian dogmatic definition of it.
Why would you think that a prayer would go "without" to a kingdom and god that is divorced from mankind, when Jesus told us it was "within" us?
You take things that Jesus said and interpret them separately. That's a no no.
Peace
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| Jun 6 @ 10:59 AM |
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 835
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Not really. Sometimes God intervenes directly, sometimes through other people, and sometimes not at all. We can never know which of the three we will get. Sorry, but this answer is a cop out. Christians have been using it for years. When Jesus decided to heal someone, did he call for a doctor? If prayer doesn't produce its own miracle, then god guided the doctors in their cure. If the patient dies, it was god's will.
Of course God can work through other people.
If you call a doctor, he may give you the shot, he may ask the nurse to administer it, or he may not give it to you at all.
If you believe there is a God, you must also believe that he has an understanding beyond ours, and that verything we think we should have, there might be a higher purpose/reason why we should not have it.
Or it could also be the tset track thing, where God will not interefere.
In any case, I can't see how anyone could think that God is going to act on every prayer. That just doesn't make sense. Since he obviously doesn't, it makes sense that sometimes we must help ourselves, or seek help from others.
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| Jun 6 @ 11:05 AM |
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ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 4,180
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No, Sail, I think you might perhaps be misinterpretting His words.
While indeed He did tell us that the kingdom of God can be found within ourselves, I understand His words to suggest that we pray to Him.
And not merely "reconciling things with yourself" as you suggest.
The Kingdom of God is certainly can be found within ourselves. But how can you possibly understand that It is ourselves?
Isn't that just a little egocentric?
(egocentric--Regarding oneself as the object of all experiences and acts. Thinking of oneself as the be all and end all. The centre of the universe.)
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| Jun 6 @ 11:33 AM |
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CHARLIgurl1
Posts: 658
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The power of prayer to me.. is energy. The world, universe if you like revovles round energy. Positive energy brings positive results.
Think positively is something that is said time and time again.. there must be a reason for this.
Animals use instinct and read energy when interacting..
When people pray they are using postive energy which co-insides with the way the universe works.
Miraculous feats have been performed by people.. like the woman who lifted a truck to save her child. The energy and the shier will power made this happen.
People have overcome great illnesses when told they wouldnt live.. the energy they had and the willingness to survive made this happen.
I do believe the power of prayer works.. it is the postitive energy and the wanting it to be so.. so much that what they ask is recieved.
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| Jun 6 @ 11:40 AM |
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ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 4,180
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" When Jesus decided to heal someone, did he call for a doctor?" --Sail_Dancer.
This is a good point you raise.
What exactly were His thoughts on prayer?
Luke 18:1--"Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up." If prayer is not particularily important, why did He bother wasting His time teaching the disciple how to pray? Matthew 6:9--" 'This then is how you should pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10--Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. 11--Give us today our daily bread. 12--Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13--And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the Evil One. 14--For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15--But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."
Towards the conclusion of His earthly ministry, Jesus was deeply troubled. So He turned to His Father in heaven. Good advice for any of us. Matthew 26:36--"Then Jesus went with His disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and He said to them, 'Sit here while I go over there and pray.'
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| Jun 6 @ 11:45 AM |
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daisy315
Posts: 4,337
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I know prayer works.. God hears ALL prayers.. and he ANSWERS all prayers.. but sometimes, it's not the answer we seek. Like Lance said, we don't always get what we want.. I don't question why..
please.. don't blast me for my posts.. I believe everyone has the right to pray, worship, idolize whoever they want to.. it's not my business.. my spiritual beliefs are MY business..
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| Jun 6 @ 11:51 AM |
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16knots
Posts: 3,627
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Charli, nice post!
SOC:
The Kingdom of God is certainly can be found within ourselves. But how can you possibly understand that It is ourselves?
Isn't that just a little egocentric?
No.
It is very simple to find the answers by simply exploring your innerself. Many religions in fact do this exact thing. "MEDITATION."
Funny thing happens when we explore our inner self.... an awareness arises from within us. Not created or developed but actually awakens. Eventually we begin to realize the nature of our world and that talked about by spiritual masters such as Jesus, Buddha and countless other.
Prayer comes in many forms. Whether or not Jesus prayed is debatable. We dont know if he existed. However, many blind test studies have shown prayer has had positive effects on group peoples on tests.
No one can prove a God exists and the best explanation of prayer is that energy produces results and not a super being. many religions support prayer as some kind of thought energy. Even the native Indians had many uses and explanations for prayer that had nothing to do with a God.
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| Jun 6 @ 12:05 PM |
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 835
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I know prayer works.. God hears ALL prayers.. and he ANSWERS all prayers.. but sometimes, it's not the answer we seek. Like Lance said, we don't always get what we want.. I don't question why
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