| Jun 9 @ 6:53 PM |
Jesus' insincere sacrifice..
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j_goose
Posts: 1,896
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Was Jesus really a Heroic Martyr?
I keep hearing "sacrifice, sacrifice, sacrifice...."
If Jesus knew he would be tortured, beaten, and executed, Sure, there would be fear, etc.
BUT..........
He KNEW he would be resurrected.
So how is his death such a sacrifice?
This is a serious question.
If he knew everything would be ok, how is his death a heroic sacrifice?
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| Jun 9 @ 8:53 PM |
Jesus' insincere sacrifice.. |
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j_goose
Posts: 1,896
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2 hours and nothing.....
Is everyone stumped on this one????
Where the FK is Lance or Uncrazy when you need 'em.???
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| Jun 9 @ 9:33 PM |
Jesus' insincere sacrifice..
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 768
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Well, whether or not he knew he would be resserected is open to debat. I think he probably did, but I don't have much to back that up.
One thing he definitely knew was that he was in for a slow torturous death. He was beat with 69 lashes, prior to. Not to mention, being crucified, and suffering a horrible death by asphyxiation.
In the garden the night before, he prayed to be relieved of the burden. He was scared.
Who do you know would be that noble. I garauntee you, even if I felt I should stick around for it to save the world, I would falter and be running for the hills.
God is all powerful, he can do s much but yet he can do so little.
What I mean is, he can't defy his own nature.
He cannot be evil.
He cannot lie
He cannot say "oh nevermind" and wipe away the laws and standards he has already set in place.
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| Jun 9 @ 9:35 PM |
Jesus' insincere sacrifice.. |
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loisday
Posts: 1,338
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Lance.................... 
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| Jun 9 @ 9:38 PM |
Jesus' insincere sacrifice..
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 768
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Uhm JGoose, that smooch was for Lois....
....I think you're a pretty cool dude, but you are too ugly for me to pass out kisses to.
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| Jun 9 @ 9:40 PM |
Jesus' insincere sacrifice.. |
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j_goose
Posts: 1,896
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Thanks for replying, Lance.
I suppose it would only be noble if he thought he wasn't goinf to be resurrected.
But if he KNEW, which is certainly implied in the Bible, it's not noble at all. It would all be "fixed" in three days.
Does that make sense??
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| Jun 9 @ 9:41 PM |
Jesus' insincere sacrifice..
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hammertime
Posts: 13,047
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God is all powerful, he can do s much but yet he can do so little. Contradiction in one sentence. All powerful means, all powerful..
What I mean is, he can't defy his own nature. That would mean nature supersedes god. That is god is the result, not the cause of nature.
He cannot be evil. Yes he can. It says so in scripture.
He cannot lie Yes he can. Its says so in scripture...
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| Jun 9 @ 9:45 PM |
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16knots
Posts: 2,960
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Okay.... I usually keep quite on the comparative stuff but I wish to answer this one.
Jesus was a Buddhist an awakened one and as such he knows his future and he knows karmic debt, particularly is debt.
He disrupted and caused a great deal of harm to many people regardless if they believed in him or not. People lost their lives, tortured and treated terribly and some with lesser negatives.
Despite his, Jesus, good aspects and good karma, he new he had to clear the balance of his wrong actions.
His actions to be sacrificed was his way to clear his debt in karmic retribution. His own suffering helps to clear his debt.
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| Jun 9 @ 9:46 PM |
Jesus' insincere sacrifice..
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 768
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But if he KNEW, which is certainly implied in the Bible, it's not noble at all. It would all be "fixed" in three days. I am just not that noble.
If I knew that I could save the world by being beaten and tortured, and nailed on a cross to hang out for hours
BUT!!!
Just as I died, they would take me down and revive me....
...I will still run like a scared rabbit
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| Jun 9 @ 9:48 PM |
Jesus' insincere sacrifice.. |
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BandTMom
Posts: 25,169
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Thanks, Knotty.
That makes total sense to me and has answered a question I have had about this for quite some time.
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| Jun 9 @ 9:49 PM |
Jesus' insincere sacrifice..
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 768
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Contradiction in one sentence. All powerful means, all powerful.. Not really
THe president can order the ari force one to go to the Bahams instead of a summit meeting, but he can't.
If a street thug spits on a cop, he can pull his gun and shoot him but he can't.
There is such a thing as having the power to do something, and having the leaveway to do it.
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| Jun 9 @ 9:52 PM |
Jesus' insincere sacrifice.. |
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 768
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Jesus was a Buddhist an awakened one and as such he knows his future and he knows karmic debt, particularly is debt. That is an interesting idea, but I am feeling no. Was Buddhism practticed in that location and time? If he was a Buddhist, wouldn't he include/mention that in his sermons? I don't know? I am ignorant of Buddhism, so I cannot really comment based on knowledge.
He disrupted and caused a great deal of harm to many people regardless if they believed in him or not. People lost their lives, tortured and treated terribly and some with lesser negatives.
Despite his, Jesus, good aspects and good karma, he new he had to clear the balance of his wrong actions.
His actions to be sacrificed was his way to clear his debt in karmic retribution. His own suffering helps to clear his debt. I will have to resepctfully disagree with this one.
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| Jun 9 @ 9:53 PM |
Jesus' insincere sacrifice..
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j_goose
Posts: 1,896
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Matt 16:21
From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
He did know he would be resurrected.
Here's more scripture.
Johnny boy 18: 24
Matt The Cool Cat 12: 40
Johnny Boy 10: 17 - 18
So it's scriptually clear he knew what was going to happen.
Sure, if I were faced with torture, I'd run like hell, too, but he was the son of God (supposedly) so HIS knowledge of what would happen would be the single strongest faith imaginable.
He wouldn't be all that worried, would he? Scared because of the pain (he was (supposedly god in human form) but not afraid of dying. (I would assume.)
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| Jun 9 @ 10:02 PM |
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,423
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igoose,
Prior to the time of the events ascribed to Jesus, the generations from Adam down cycled through a group of character roles that have an archtypical aspect to them. This means they repeated these role cycles through the generations.
John the Baptist and Jesus were in the roles of Elisha and Elisa...references are seen in the NT about these roles. Jesus also carries the role of a Melchisedek, priest/king. Paul alludes to it that the law had to be changed so Jesus could offer the bread and wine, a priest function, for Jesus was in the House of David, a king line.
As an Elisa role he would have known what his fate would be as would John. Somehow the church has succeeded in diverting the fact that these men were low birthed people...they were from priestly and kingly royal lines as was Magdalene.
The idea of sheperds rising to rule the people is from Mesopotamian history found 1500-2000 years before Jesus would have been born. Of course the bible won't say any of this...one of the terms of release of the Jews of Babylon was that they deny any titles to kingship...and the pharisees were adamant about this...explains their responses to and about Jesus claims to kingship.
It is not easily seen how history was at times veiled in the OT, even harder to see what the early and medieval church did to distort history. The churches part in creating the characteristics of the devil, or of witches and countless other demons is easily found if sought.
One simple example was the idea of the evil 13 in a coven of witches, yet the knights of the roundtable were Arthur and 12, and Jesus himself had His 12. For the bishops, they despised not having the authority over the people, they often attacked the very sacred symbols found in their own history.
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| Jun 9 @ 10:06 PM |
Jesus' insincere sacrifice..
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16knots
Posts: 2,960
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Lance,
Buddhism was old by that time by ~500 years. I read an account a few weeks ago buddhism was known in the region but I dont have the details but alas one doesnt need to be a "Buddhist" par se to attain Awakening. Buddhists are usually recognized by the Buddha but Buddda's have been around since time began.
Yes, Jesus caused harm even from his birth when babies were killed by Herod. Hi actions within society and with people around him caused great harm. Even his action was to caused someone to be negative for the moment is enough to cause negative karma for him. If I call you a SOB then my karma suffers for that if it is meant negatively.
hence the point is that he DID cause a great deal of harm. Take Judas for example, if Jesus was a true teacher then he didnt teach Judas very well. (If what we are led to believe is true on the whole issue.)
Christians were sent to the Lions for their beliefs. Christianity itself based on Jesus is a huge negative karma machine. Jesus and his actions in bringing his teachings to others has been a great cause of harm for many.
If he kept his mouth shut then we wouldnt have inquisitions, wars in gods name, and including man born of ignorance.
My guess is it wasnt his intention but his actions have set off a series of consequences that still reverberate today.
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| Jun 9 @ 10:07 PM |
Jesus' insincere sacrifice.. |
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BandTMom
Posts: 25,169
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 Lance.
There are two threads on "Was Jesus a Buddhist". You might find them interesting.
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| Jun 9 @ 10:13 PM |
Jesus' insincere sacrifice..
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hammertime
Posts: 13,047
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Contradiction in one sentence. All powerful means, all powerful.. Not really
THe president can order the ari force one to go to the Bahams instead of a summit meeting, but he can't.
If a street thug spits on a cop, he can pull his gun and shoot him but he can't.
There is such a thing as having the power to do something, and having the leaveway to do it. The president is not all powerful. A dictator is. God is a dictator but anything anyone can say about any god is only from the imagination anyway. Whatever you want to think is what you choose to believe unless god himself told you.
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| Jun 9 @ 10:40 PM |
Jesus' insincere sacrifice.. |
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 768
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Wow, all good thoughts.
Matt 16:21
From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life. Right on JGoose. He DID know. I was thinking he did but wasn't sure.
Yes, Jesus caused harm even from his birth when babies were killed by Herod. Yes, indirectly I guess so. Were it not for threat of his prescence, those babies would have survived, but it is hard for me to fault him because Herod was so wicked.
The president is not all powerful. A dictator is. God is a dictator but anything anyone can say about any god is only from the imagination anyway. Well, I still think there is a thing of standing by your word. If I tell my kids that if they spill milk on the carpet, they can't watch their TV show, I need to stick to it, even if I later regret having made the stipulation.
Lance.
There are two threads on "Was Jesus a Buddhist". You might find them interesting. I will take a look. I suspect I won't be convinced, but I am always willing to entertain a new idea to see if it has merit.
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| Jun 9 @ 10:43 PM |
Jesus' insincere sacrifice..
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16knots
Posts: 2,960
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I will take a look. I suspect I won't be convinced, but I am always willing to entertain a new idea to see if it has merit.
Always keep an open mind. Nothing is more important than for you to question.
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| Jun 9 @ 10:54 PM |
Jesus' insincere sacrifice.. |
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hammertime
Posts: 13,047
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Well, I still think there is a thing of standing by your word. If I tell my kids that if they spill milk on the carpet, they can't watch their TV show, I need to stick to it, even if I later regret having made the stipulation. But you are not God. Only God can kill his children and still demand love from them. Thank god you're not god else you'd be a terrible parent.
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