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| Jun 13 @ 9:16 AM |
God, the rock, a ball team, and Otis
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 835
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Ok, I thought of this one this morning.
A common question that fols ponder (including me) is, if God makes the rules, why did Yeashua have to die on the cross for the sins of man,
This is a true story.
When I was on the ball team in high school, there was a kid that was nicknamed Otis.
The coach had a standing rule that, if you were late for ball practice, it was an automatic 5 laps, no questions, no excuses.
The coach was also a farmer, and Otis worked for him.
Here is the wrinkle. There are crunch times, for a framer, when the work in the fields absolutely has to be done before the weather changes. The coach, as Otis' employer, told Otis to finish the work in the fields, regardless of being late for practice.
Otis did as he was told. He finished the work in the field. He showed up late for ball practice. The coach felt bad about it, but he had Otis do his 5 laps.
Here is the thing. The coach was in charge. He was technically able to say "No Otis, it wasn't your fault, you don't have to do the laps." He could, but he couldn't. He had set a standard and couldn't go back on it. If he would have, he would have been going back on his word.
God is in the same spot. If he creates a rock so heavy he can't lift it, then he can't lift it. By his nature, he can't go back on a standard he establishes.
God established that he wages of sin are death. He couldn't go back on that. A debt was owed, and Yeashua paid it.
To do any less, would have been less than Godly, and God can't do that.
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| Jun 13 @ 11:05 AM |
God, the rock, a ball team, and Otis |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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Lance,
I appreciate your effort to explain your justification of your god's actions, but I just cannot accept this reasoning.
That would be like our government deciding to bomb some enemy installation. The bomb raid took the lives of enemy soldiers that is not against our laws. But it also killed less say 100 innocent civilians. With your logic, the crew of the plane that dropped the bombs upon return to their base should be arrested for murder. Even though they went on the mission the government sent them, the result of that mission broke laws that the government "couldn't go back on". The crew then owed a debt to society and had to pay it.
There are always circumstances that will require common sense in determining how a law is interpreted and enforced. The christian god does not recognize this. That is why I say that the christian god was created in man's image. Christians assume that everything associated with their god is infinitely greater than they can comprehend. Thus they feel that their god's ego is also infinitely greater than man's ego.
In the example of the coach you gave. It was unreasonable for him to make the boy do the laps. Since he caused it, he could have still set an example by doing the laps himself and explaining the situation to the team members.
Peace
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| Jun 13 @ 11:33 AM |
God, the rock, a ball team, and Otis
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Thor1960303
Posts: 1,887
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The trouble with this type of reasoning is that the "standards" were set in ancient times when the idea of justice was stoning people for adultery and a host of other lesser infractions.
"Standards" change as people evolve socially.It has nothing to do with "God" or any other supernatural belief.Death and blood sacrifices are all part of ancient desert society,they're socially outdated concepts.
There are always circumstances that will require common sense in determining how a law is interpreted and enforced. The christian god does not recognize this.
Hence the reason why we have courts,judges and attorneys.
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| Jun 13 @ 11:38 AM |
God, the rock, a ball team, and Otis |
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 835
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In the example of the coach you gave. It was unreasonable for him to make the boy do the laps. Since he caused it, he could have still set an example by doing the laps himself and explaining the situation to the team members.
 Dang!!!! i wish I would have thought about it back then. I usrely would have suggested it at the time, had it occured to me.
And...
In a way, that would have been what God did. He created a human manifestation of himself, and took the punishment onto hisself, instead of on us.
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| Jun 13 @ 11:54 AM |
God, the rock, a ball team, and Otis
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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In a way, that would have been what God did. He created a human manifestation of himself, and took the punishment onto hisself, instead of on us.
Nope! Big difference is that your god didn't die on that cross. A human being died on the cross. God did not take the punishment on himself but still fed his own ego by having a human sacrificed to himself. "Ego" personified!
There are some things that cannot be justified and having your son tortured and sacrificed is one of them.
Peace
Buy the way, this has been a good exchange of thoughts. It is a pleasure debating without personal attacks.
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| Jun 13 @ 12:00 PM |
God, the rock, a ball team, and Otis |
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 835
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Nope! Big difference is that your god didn't die on that cross. A human being died on the cross. God did not take the punishment on himself but still fed his own ego by having a human sacrificed to himself. "Ego" personified! Well, that depends on how you define the Christ.
If he is just a man, like any other man then what you say is correct.
If he was God in man form, then maybe not. Even as God in man form, Yeashua recognized and prayed to God the father. Yet, for many Christians, they are essentially one in the same.
Yeashu was human, but he was also God, but he was also God's only begotten son.
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| Jun 13 @ 12:16 PM |
God, the rock, a ball team, and Otis
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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Lance,
But did the god die? Did the god shed blood?
God cannot die. So Jesus if he was god, he couldn't have died. If Jesus did die, he couldn't have been god.
Either way you look at it, god did not take the place of man in the sacrifice. A man was sacrificed to your god to appease his ego.
You know that I do believe in a higher being or force. But the christian god has too many human characteristics and faults for me to believe in him. I try to follow Jesus' teachings for I truly believe he was an enlightened Master.
Christian dogma insists on defining god. The truth is god cannot be defined in human terms. Christianity in trying to do so only made their god in man's image along with all man's flaws.
Peace
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| Jun 13 @ 12:54 PM |
God, the rock, a ball team, and Otis |
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 835
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All good questions. Keep in mind, I may not have all the answers, or even any right answers, I am just taking my best shot.
But did the god die? Did the god shed blood? Yes he did, in his human form he did. He was also resserected as we will be resserected. (For him it was only a few days)
God cannot die. So Jesus if he was god, he couldn't have died. If Jesus did die, he couldn't have been god. His mortal incarnation is not under the same restrictions as his spiritual self. I look at Yeashua as a hybrid. Half human half God. Indeed, his mother was human, his father was spirit.
Either way you look at it, god did not take the place of man in the sacrifice. A man was sacrificed to your god to appease his ego. If Yeashua was jsut a man, that is right. If he was half-and-half, well I guess it is still at least half right.
You know that I do believe in a higher being or force. Yes sir. And though you do not profess to be Christain, and I do, I think our beliefs are not so dissimilair. My stance we know/understand very little about God. As the bible says, we see through the glass darkly. I know that he is a higher power, which is the same thing that you believe.
But the christian god has too many human characteristics and faults for me to believe in him. I am OK with that. I don't buy into the "you have to be a salesman for God" idea that many preachers try to push. i am a member, but not much of a recuiter.
I try to follow Jesus' teachings for I truly believe he was an enlightened Master. Sounds right to me.
Christian dogma insists on defining god. I don't know. I am ignorant of that, and cannot speak for it. I know that I do not insist on defining him. To the contrary, I believe it is ipossiblefor man to define God.
The truth is god cannot be defined in human terms. Right on!!
Christianity in trying to do so only made their god in man's image along with all man's flaws. I am not sure that Christianity, the religion itself does that. I know that many Christians try to do that.
I go along with the verse;
NIV
1 Corinthians 13
11. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.
12. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
KJV
1 Corinthians 13
11. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
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| Jun 13 @ 1:37 PM |
God, the rock, a ball team, and Otis
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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I don't know. I am ignorant of that, and cannot speak for it. I know that I do not insist on defining him. To the contrary, I believe it is ipossiblefor man to define God.
Seems to me that in the OP you took a good crack at defining god's logic about some debt that you feel we owe him.
God is in the same spot. How do you know this to be a fact? Who knows the mind of god?
If he creates a rock so heavy he can't lift it, then he can't lift it. By his nature, he can't go back on a standard he establishes. How do you know god's nature? Seems you are assuming that god would react to things the same as we humans.
God established that he wages of sin are death. He couldn't go back on that. A debt was owed, and Yeashua paid it. But the debt was owed by each man. Therefore more than one death or shedding of blood was required to pay this debt based on the original rules. So you agree that god can change the rules, why can't you agree that he couldn't change the debt itself? He reduced the "multiple debts" to a "single debt". So why couldn't he change "sheding of blood" to "some sort of punishment" based on the severity of the sin?
Let's say in your story above, the rule was that if anyone showed up late for practice, the whole team had to do the laps. If the coach acted as you claim god did, he would have only one boy run the laps to pay for the teams debt. Couldn't the coach have changed it to doing 20 pushups? If you are going to change something, as I see it, everything in the original rule would be a candidate for change.
To do any less, would have been less than Godly, and God can't do that. What is less than godly? I would think that anything less than unconditional love is less than godly. I also feel that there is nothing that god cannot do.
Peace
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| Jun 13 @ 2:11 PM |
God, the rock, a ball team, and Otis |
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 835
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All good questions. Sorry I don't have better answers.
Please take these as my personal theories and beliefs that I have arrived at by my own study and reasoning. Some (or all) of them could be wrong.
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| Jun 13 @ 2:23 PM |
God, the rock, a ball team, and Otis
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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Thanks for the exchange of ideas. It just shows that people can look at things differently and that their concepts of god are affected by how they look at things in general.
Peace
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| Jun 13 @ 3:16 PM |
God, the rock, a ball team, and Otis |
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 835
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I found another scripture that seems to support our thinking that man cannot fully understand God
1 Corinthians 2
7. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
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