| Jun 14 @ 3:28 PM |
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Thor1960303
Posts: 1,887
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As I've stated before,the issue of what an individual chooses to believe is no concern of mine.As long as an individual or group's religious belief doesn't interfere with my life or the progress of humanity,I don't care what kind of mythical nonsense you want to believe.You want to believe in Jesus,angels,demons,invisible people,whatever,I don't care,just don't halt humanity's progress.
I'm talking about such things stem cell research.If we can cure many of our ills from stem cells,why not?What's the problem?Oh yeah,the senseless abortion debate,let's not piss off the Pope.  (where's the emoticon for the middle finger?)I just wonder what Christians think of man's place in space travel.Personally I think our species's future is in space travel,adapting other worlds to suit our life needs and perhaps adapting the human species to live on other worlds,but then to the religious,that's playing 'God''.
CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY:REASON OR SUPERSTITION
PROGRESS OR STAGNATION
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| Jun 14 @ 3:38 PM |
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Angel54214
Posts: 14,074
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I'm talking about such things stem cell research.If we can cure many of our ills from stem cells,why not?What's the problem?
Myth 2. Christians are against stem cell research.
There are four categories of stem cells: embryonic stem cells, embryonic germ cells, umbilical cord stem cells, and adult stem cells. Given that germ cells can come from miscarriages that involve no deliberate interruption of pregnancy, Christians in general oppose the use of only one of these four categories, i.e., embryonic stem cells. In other words, most Christians approve of three of the four possible types of stem cell research.
Borrowed from:
http://www.ortl.org/stem-cell-cloning/myths.php
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| Jun 14 @ 4:58 PM |
Antiprogressiveness
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16knots
Posts: 3,627
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Good thread Thor.
We all know how throughout the ages Christianity has impeded mans sciences.
Thankfully my own tradition is quite the reverse and science is actually turning towards my tradition in Buddhism.
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| Jun 14 @ 5:19 PM |
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Angel54214
Posts: 14,074
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^^^ perfect candiate for a science stem cell research. Alien with water of the brain. 
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| Jun 14 @ 5:21 PM |
Antiprogressiveness
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16knots
Posts: 3,627
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Angel, thank you for your Christian response.
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| Jun 14 @ 7:15 PM |
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BandTMom
Posts: 28,448
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| Jun 15 @ 11:15 AM |
Antiprogressiveness
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Thor1960303
Posts: 1,887
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Angel,
That would depend largely on which donomination of Christianity you're talking about.I am aware that not all Christians are against stem cell research,hell there are Pro Choice Christians,gay Christians,liberal Christians,I am aware of this.
My original point here was to show how Christianity in general can and does impede progress.
If someone can show me how a belief that calls for folks to "lean not to their own understanding", can do anything but impede a person's education I'm all ears.Just that statement alone prohibits a person from even pursuing certain fields of study.If someone can show me how belief in an apocalypse and a subsequent belief that one by virtue of their faith can escape an inevitable holocaust, can motivate someone to do anything other than try to convert other folks,I'm listening. 
The majority of Christians I know look at headlines and see signs of Christ's return.In other words,no practical ideas for solutions to problems,no motivation to advance mankind scientifically.Why should there be any motivation to do such when you believe that God's just going to magically go "Poof!" and rescue you from doom?I've even talked to Christians who believe that the manned space program is pointless because God doesn't want man to reach the stars because if he had wanted that,he wouldn't have placed the stars so far away. Why should you be concerned with space travel when Jesus is going to rapture you out? Then there are the nut fringe Christians who believe that Galileo and Copernicus were demonically inspired and the solar system is really geocentric and the cosmos is only several light years in diameter.Some of these geniuses are the same rocket scientists that believe the space program was a hoax and the moon landings were done in a studio.
If this isn't mental illness and toxic faith that's impeding man's progress,then show me where I'm worng.If this isn't being seriously out of touch with reality,then show me where I'm wrong.
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| Jun 15 @ 11:20 AM |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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If this isn't mental illness and toxic faith that's impeding man's progress,then show me where I'm worng.If this isn't being seriously out of touch with reality,then show me where I'm wrong.
Good post Thor. 
Peace
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| Jun 15 @ 11:25 AM |
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eastham
Posts: 6,354
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One area where there are many scientists who are also Christians is evolutionary biology. I remember watching the episode of Frontline, which dealt with the fight to teach ID in Dover, PA, and nearly all of the evolution advocates in the school system are Christian as well many but not all of the scientists who were brought into testify at the trial. Many of these people received threats or were charaterized as atheists by so-called Christians (their behavior made be question if their faith was a mile wide and an inch deep).
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| Jun 15 @ 11:47 AM |
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Thor1960303
Posts: 1,887
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Eastham,I've tried very hard to understand the mindset and motivations behind the culture that champions faith over rationality and it's to no avail.I grew up in this culture and I still don't understand it.I've come to the conclusion that it's a security issue amongst these types.They've created their fantasy world.A world where invisible people exist and influence the daily lives of people.A world where people rise from the dead and folks are supernaturally healed of their ills because a magic holy man said some words over a cloth with oil on it. When that security is threatened and it's revealed that problems aren't going to magically go away because they were prayed over,then the hostility comes out.How dare you point out reality, they might get stuck actually having to think for once and we can't have that,it violates their commandment of not "leaning to their own understanding",because the invisible sky daddy and his son on a stick are much smarter than all of us.
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| Jun 15 @ 11:50 AM |
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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Religiosity in general impedes human progress. The very idea that one puts in their mind ideas of truth that have no foundation in facts whatsoever goes against every scientific principle. They are diametrically opposed. The religious believe in things that are unreal and lack evidence. If there was evidence, science would be right there finding facts, giving reasons, building theories but there are no facts, no evidence and so faith will always remain blind. There is nothing there but wishes, fantasy, and delusion.
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| Jun 15 @ 12:02 PM |
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Thor1960303
Posts: 1,887
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Here's something to ponder.The president claims Christianity.If let's say,Israel does something against already established peace treaties,and he acknowledges it as such,then those folks that put him in office are going to complain because Israel,in the eyes of Christianity, can do no wrong.The ridiculous Biblical passage about the nations being blessed of God by siding with Israel will make he the religious worry if the president doesn't jump to Israel's defense regardless of what Israel may have done.
Now let's say the president converts to Norse religion and starts to worship Odin.Then Norway becomes the chosen nation and Scandinavians the chosen people (at least the women are better looking in my opinion).It would affect all of the president's forieng policy decisions.I'm sure it wouldn't be long before the nation would seek to get him out of office and into a mental facility.
So what's the difference?Faith in a myth that influences decisions in the real world is dangerous regardless of which myth it is.
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| Jun 15 @ 12:32 PM |
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eastham
Posts: 6,354
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Thor, what fascinates me about the whole process is that the Protestant Reformation ushered in the Age of Reason. Many of the first Protestant scholars were men of intellect. The anti-intellectualism that walks hand in hand with some of the more modern sects would be as troubling to the founding fathers of Protestantism as it is to you and me.
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| Jun 15 @ 12:40 PM |
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alivenwell351
Posts: 1,514
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Eastham,I've tried very hard to understand the mindset and motivations behind the culture that champions faith over rationality and it's to no avail.I grew up in this culture and I still don't understand it.
Over time I've come to believe it's pretty simple...it's a convenient, one size fits all, lazy person's way at any given time or situation to explain the unexplainable...
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| Jun 15 @ 12:48 PM |
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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East
That transition might be a nice thing to research. I think I might take a stab at it. But what about the transition starting with the founder of the Protestant movement, the psycho Martin Luther? What intellectual was he? Because he translated a bible? Big deal. It just might be with regards to Protestants that whole basis of religiosity is innately irrational so any intellectual attempts would fail over time. The last thing you need is a congregation that thinks else why pay attention to the rants of a preacher? Look at the mega churches in the south. They wouldn't grow so big if it weren't for followers who couldn't think rationally.
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| Jun 15 @ 1:41 PM |
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eastham
Posts: 6,354
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Well, actually protestantism began before Luther. However, it is important to note that while Luther's teachings played an important role in encouraging the German peasant revolts whose adherents mimic today's fundamentalist sects, Luther did not support the revolt and was horrified by it. Went to a very interesting exhibit on that subject in at the Goethe Institute in Rothenberg ob der Tauber.
What would be equally interesting to research is why this appears to be an American phenomena. While there are evangelicals aboard, much of their support comes from US sources. For example the ID movement in Britain is funded and organized from US groups. Is this mindset a due to the lack of an established church in the US? Or is it something else, something to do with the American psyche? Why is there such a strong current of anti-intellectualism when this country was in fact established by men who embraced the intellect, who read broadly, who spoke several languages and who studied science and mathematics for fun.
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| Jun 15 @ 3:53 PM |
Antiprogressiveness
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Angel54214
Posts: 14,074
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Thanks for your response Thor... 
I fully support "science" research in anything if it's intent is fully subjected to the good of life development. When those that are Christians cast a first stone into the realm of the science melting pot soup, and not look first to the reasons for the intent, thus becoming in unawares that they are included in the developments. Those that shout the loudest, are usually those that don't uphold in their own lives of the good. Hard to explain this and coming from the label "Christian" myself, but for an example, the science of medicine has given freedom of choice to prevent birth, and those that shout about stem cell research, take the very science of medicine birth prevention and stand at picket lines at abortion centers.
Humans are pretty good and hasty to judge others; it's seems to be a great part of our nature and is an easy asset. The hard asset is judging upon oneself in the same situation, thus it becomes a stored secret within. This is the gray line area; the equator pole. Because of self judgment being hidden and set forth, it is found by others and then brought forth with added touches. Therefore the very hidden thing, becomes an exposed thing in a wider ranged scope.
It's just like when some one lies, that lie become a bigger, then a bigger lie. Pretty soon everything becomes a lie. If the original lie was right away acknowleged by the one who lied, then healing and disipation would come.
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| Jun 15 @ 3:59 PM |
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Thor1960303
Posts: 1,887
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Good,intelligent and introspective post,Angel. Explains the psychology behind the belief very well.
It just seems to me that the more science discovers,the more control humans learn to impose over their own lives,the more the "God fearing" religious folks want to scream about morality and how far science should be allowed to go.
It just seems to me that the religious scream the loudest when people want to exercise control over their own lives.Science has always been the liberating vehicle and therefore becomes the target for attack from religion.
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| Jun 15 @ 4:19 PM |
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Angel54214
Posts: 14,074
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I kinda look at it like a big pillar rock sitting in the middle of the sand. The rock is an eye sore to some, and thus must be ground down finely like sand and added to the mix. Others look at the rock as an pillar statement to the sand as they they once were.
Then there are those that look upon the rock and are too weak to lift it alone if no one helps, then the rock will be left there tomorrow for other footprint souls.
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