| Jul 7 @ 1:37 PM |
Why do you believe what you do?
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hammertime
Posts: 13,746
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This is an epistemological question. The question is aimed at everyone and anyone.
The question arose based on observation of the Christian mind. They seem to lack an epistemology. There is a lack of disciplined and critical thinking skill.
Where is their philosophical knowledge in areas of logic, reasoning and rationality?
Why does the Christian heavily engross himself in fantasy, wish fulfillment and confabulation?
Why do they suffer the same level of reasoning as someone from the dark ages?
They seem to lack general knowledge of mythology and how it works. They also lack any knowledge of comparative religions yet easily condemn all other faiths and religions. They are bigots and ignorant. They easily embrace dark age beliefs without questioning its validity, veracity or soundness.
The question is why you believe what you do. Give reasons, not guesses. What are the reasons? What is the logic behind it and show the philosophical, psychological, scientific and any other principles supporting it.
[Edited on 7/7/2008 1:43 PM]
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| Jul 7 @ 2:46 PM |
Why do you believe what you do? |
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uab_5
Posts: 2,371
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They seem to lack general knowledge of mythology and how it works. They also lack any knowledge of comparative religions yet easily condemn all other faiths and religions. They are bigots and ignorant. They easily embrace dark age beliefs without questioning its validity, veracity or soundness.
The question is why you believe what you do. Give reasons, not guesses. What are the reasons? What is the logic behind it and show the philosophical, psychological, scientific and any other principles supporting it
Whhy do you believe Christians are bigots and ignorant?
Why should any self respecting Christian give a hate monger like you the time of day?
You know and I know that you are the most hate filled person on MD.
I'll answer you for the sake of discussion.
I belive the way I do because I was a miserable piece of shit until I found Christ.
I go to the church I do because my late mother did, and I enjoy having friendships with people that knew and loved her.
So I answered you.
Twist my answer all ten ways to Sunday. Does that make you happy?
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| Jul 7 @ 2:50 PM |
Why do you believe what you do?
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,469
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Hammer,
The question is why you believe what you do. Give reasons, not guesses. What are the reasons? What is the logic behind it and show the philosophical, psychological, scientific and any other principles supporting it.
The "what"...reflecting on the how and where the information I hold came from requires mental work. What measure did I use to say the information is valid, or did I just say it is valid because someone in authority or with power over me gave it to me. I can try to claim the authority of writings, especially if they are supported by claims of inerrancy from a powerful authority figure or social structure.
The "why"...it is a bit easier...I hold beliefs that make me feel safe from my fears, and offer me data that I can use to show I'm not ignorant. I want to feel good and know the right stuff.
Knowledge of politics,philosophy, psychology, science, and history is gained from study of these subjects beyond just looking up these definitions in a dictionary.
The church has so succesfully separated man from his links to nature and his own humanity by labels of evil and heresy, we can actually find it reasonable to look at nothing outside of the accepted bible as nothing but a fable or information designed by a devil to mislead us.
I can appear quite rational when looking at myself without considering the information that sits beyond the walls of my beliefs.
Edited for spelling.
[Edited on 7/7/2008 3:06 PM]
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| Jul 7 @ 3:03 PM |
Why do you believe what you do? |
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hammertime
Posts: 13,746
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I belive the way I do because I was a miserable piece of shit until I found Christ. Many people who turn to Christianity have fallen to their lows. They've lost all self respect and self esteem. Religion gives structure to the pathetic because they are told what to do, what to believe and what to think. They are basically crippled because they can't manage their own lives. Religion thrives on these sorts of folk. This is not a sound reason to believe in anything. This kind of bottom of the barrel spirituality is no different than giving a heroin addict methadone. Its simply replacing one drug with another.
I asked why you believe and you basically gave no reason showing logic, reasoning or any philosophical and epistemological principles.
Whhy do you believe Christians are bigots and ignorant? Anyone who believes all will suffer damnation or hellish torment if they don't believe as they do is a bigot because it condemns all other cultures, beliefs, faiths and religions. For example:I also believe that un-Saved people go directly, after judgement, to eternal torment. Only someone who is ignorant and a bigot would assume such toxic beliefs. They are not only Christians but Muslims too or any other belief system that assumes such bigoted ideology.
So I answered you. You gave some kind of answer but it was pretty shallow and pathetic.
[Edited on 7/7/2008 3:26 PM]
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| Jul 7 @ 3:18 PM |
Why do you believe what you do?
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hammertime
Posts: 13,746
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uncrazy
The "why"...it is a bit easier...I hold beliefs that make me feel safe from my fears, and offer me data that I can use to show I'm not ignorant. I want to feel good and know the right stuff. I think we all want to feel good if we're not masochists. I can't say the same for those in the Philippines who seem to enjoy the pain of being whipped and nailed to crosses. However, is the data you refer to is something we can all take a look at? Is this information that is verifiable? And if new data comes forward that seems expand or contradict old data do your beliefs adjust accordingly? In other words, do your beliefs rely on your own knowledge of what is true and false? There are rhetorical questions.
I can appear quite rational when looking at myself without considering the information that sits beyond the walls of my beliefs. As long as you know there are limits to your knowledge. Once upon a time it appeared rational to believe the earth was flat. It made sense given the information available. People's beliefs changed when we discovered the world was not flat.
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| Jul 7 @ 3:27 PM |
Why do you believe what you do? |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,146
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UAB,
Why should any self respecting Christian give a hate monger like you the time of day? Hate monger? You have a nerve to say this when everything Hammer said about christianity is true.
Hammer posted:They seem to lack general knowledge of mythology and how it works. They also lack any knowledge of comparative religions yet easily condemn all other faiths and religions. They are bigots and ignorant. They easily embrace dark age beliefs without questioning its validity, veracity or soundness. How many christians have truthfully studied and looked into mythological beliefs and other religions? I would say very few. Then why, pray tell, do christians have the nerve to condemn people of other faiths? This builds walls between different conflicting beliefs. If this isn't bigotry, what is?
Christians making judgement on things that they are uninformed of is just plain ignorance!
If you ask a christian why they believe in what they do, you never get a straight answer. The reason for this is that the majority of christians have no idea what their dogma teaches. They have never looked into the history of christianity and because of this are easily led by preachers that in many cases don't have a clue either.
So if anything, christians are war mongers! Their dogma works to polarize people against each other and christian history is full of bloodthristy wars in their god's name.
So do yourself a favor and do some research before you call anyone a war monger. It just shows your ignorance of religious history. You also claim to be christian but have shown by your post here and other threads, that you know little to nothing about the christian bible; what it teaches; or the dogma built around it.
Peace
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| Jul 7 @ 3:32 PM |
Why do you believe what you do?
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hammertime
Posts: 13,746
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As for hate mongering....
Jesus said:
Luke 14 KJV
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
or was it one of those deliberate mistranslations? 
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| Jul 7 @ 3:38 PM |
Why do you believe what you do? |
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uab_5
Posts: 2,371
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Sail,
Hammer has called me "delusional", "misguided", etc more times that I can count, and I'm f__ing sick of it.
And yes, I'm fully aware of Christianity's origins, other "myths" of the era, and the bloodletting done in Christ's name by a bunch of savages.
I'll also counter that not one major religion has its hands free of blood. Please don't forget that the Imperial Japanese were Buddhist, or the Hindi caste system that oppressed thoses born to lower stations in life.
As far as war is concerned, it's an insult to God to make kill our fellows. That's why my choice service to this day is the USCG of which I proudly servived.
Why does someone of your statue defend that insultive little cull?
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| Jul 7 @ 3:46 PM |
Why do you believe what you do?
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hammertime
Posts: 13,746
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Hammer has called me "delusional", "misguided", etc more times that I can count, and I'm f__ing sick of it. I might have but I don't remember specifically about what. Perhaps it was your belief in the invisible supernatural beings or where dead people come back to life. There are many things in Christianity as well as other religions that are delusions. You'll have to remind me.
'll also counter that not one major religion has its hands free of blood. Please don't forget that the Imperial Japanese were Buddhist, or the Hindi caste system that oppressed thoses born to lower stations in life. How is that a counter? You're just dumping other religions and beliefs to be just as evil as Christianity is. Christianity is however the most bloodiest given dozens of Crusades and 600 years of Inquisitions and of course the Jewish Holocaust.
[Edited on 7/7/2008 3:51 PM]
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| Jul 7 @ 3:50 PM |
Why do you believe what you do? |
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,469
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Hammer,
However, is the data you refer to is something we can all take a look at? Is this information that is verifiable?
Information, long held or believed under threats of death or social ostracizing, will die an agonizing death as it is faced with supporting facts. Whether or not something is verifiable rest more on the validity of the verification standard itself.
Claims by the church for divine inspiration or inerrancy are easy defenses for truth until we read the book. Just reading the textual contradictions exposes the source for the inspiration to be an idiot, more likely the writings of men than from an all knowing God. I only need to suspend my logic to get beyond this. If my children spoke to me with these contradictions interspersed in their vocal paragraphs, I would not think they were fully qualified to live by themselves in the world.
If I don't study the political history preceeding Jesus, and around the formed after him, I can believe that the churchmen suffered persecution for a only a belief system...and ignore that this was much about a battle of bloodlines for rulership.
If I look at my world from only the words in one book, it will always appear rational if I only ignore the contradictions. I can study the words forever, for they are presented as a wheel or circle.
To seek reasoned responses from me on the contradictions I've successfully ignored and suppressed would really only make you seem irrational, and I can maintain a picture of my own soundness of mind intact. I'd be operating on a perfect defense, no chinks where any other reality can penetrate.
Information cannot attack a person...it attacks the belief system only. I only appear to be my belief system...my ego is heavily invested in it...I am something else.
Edited for spelling and thought clarification.
[Edited on 7/7/2008 5:28 PM]
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| Jul 7 @ 4:53 PM |
Why do you believe what you do?
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,146
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UAB,
Why does someone of your statue defend that insultive little cull? Because, sorry to say, everything he stated about christianity is true as I said in my post.
You have yet to provide any information that disproves what Hammer has said.
Hammer has called me "delusional", "misguided", etc more times that I can count, and I'm f__ing sick of it. I have been participating in these threads for some time now and there are others that Hammer may have said these things but I don't remember him actually calling you "delusional" or "misguided". If he has, you have the right to be upset but it doesn't change the fact that his statements ring true.
Many christians take what Hammer says about christians as a personal attack. If they reacted by checking out his claims instead of reacting as you did, I would have more respect for them. Instead they allow the dogma that warps their minds to blind them to the facts.
I happen to follow Jesus' teachings, but I constantly deny being christian since I feel that christians do not follow Jesus' teaching but the dogma of men that created a religion to control masses of people. I feel it is an insult to be considered christian, you however feel insulted when the truth about christianity is told.
Peace
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| Jul 7 @ 5:40 PM |
Why do you believe what you do? |
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hammertime
Posts: 13,746
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I too follow teachings that are "attributed" to Jesus. Personally I don't care who taught them because what really matters is what was taught, not by whom. Once you learn these things then you can teach them too and hopefully by example. I say "attributed" to Jesus because there is no proof he ever existed but just because he's a fictional character doesn't mean some of those teachings "attributed" to him aren't good. Some examples are love your enemy, turn the other cheek, forgive your trespasses, you know, things most Christians only pay lip service to. But no, Christians want eternal hell and damnation for those who don't believe as they do. Its just as well Jesus never existed because if he did and saw what Christians were doing he'd realize he not only wasted his breath but he also wasted his life. Oh well, everyone has their cross to bear.
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| Jul 7 @ 5:44 PM |
Why do you believe what you do?
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uab_5
Posts: 2,371
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Anyhoo, I've had a chance to calm down.
Hammertime,
I wish to publically make ammends for insulting you.
To paraphrase my second favorite Frenchman, Voltaire:
I may disagree with what you say, but I'll defend to my death your right to say it.
Again, I am saddened at my own respponse to you and your statements. It only shows that no matter how far I've gotten in my recovery, I'm still the sick little psych patient underneath it all.
Please accept my humble apology.
BTW if you're ever in Alabama, there is a rack of babyback ribs and a Corona or three waiting for you at your choice of barbeque restaurants in Birmingham. 
Sail,
My father, an Iranian athesist, and I have had this discusion ad nauseum. Faith needs no explanation. It's just that - faith.
Somewhere along the line, everything defies logic.
The fundamentals of creationism and evolution are both flawed, and I personally believe both should be excluded from public education.
Evolution doesn't explain blood clotting for instance, and creationism is earlier man's explaination for his place in the universe.
Even my father admits that there is a Creator, but his believe is that the Creator doesn't intervene in our lives once he got the ball rolling.
I, on the other hand, subscribe to Bill W's philosophy of "quitting the debate society" and just accepting things for face value.
If being a Christian means I've got to believe in spontaneous genesis, and a man, who by all accounts was killed in a horible fashions, pushed a stone back and returned to life, oh well. That's the pickele on the hamburger. I'm not about to tos a hamburger because it has a pickle on it.
For me it's the interpersonal relationships I've developed at church, the teachings of Christ, and the sanity I get is why I identify as a Christian.
And yes, after you toss much of the religious mumbo jumbo, the life of Christ is an awesome one to emulate.
God bless.
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| Jul 7 @ 5:51 PM |
Why do you believe what you do? |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,146
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UAB,
And yes, after you toss much of the religious mumbo jumbo, the life of Christ is an awesome one to emulate. 
Peace
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| Jul 7 @ 6:19 PM |
Why do you believe what you do?
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 815
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I think it is a reasonable question.
For me, there are a few different reasons. I offer theses, not as any sort of proof, just my personal reasons. It is not going to upset me if anyone wants to refure them.
1. A creation implies a creator. There is too much engineering in things like the human hand, or a maple leaf, or even a snowflake for me to believe I happened with a design. A design requires a designer.
2. Things in the bible that turned out to be true, even though the info was not available at the time. A maximum life span of 120 years. Being required to have an ID number to buy/sell/trade.
3. My brother's eye sight being restored after prayer. The doctor didn't even want to check it.
4. My own personal, subjective experiences (albeit few)
5. The logic. Why go through this life if there isn't something better coming on the back side?
6. The hints in nature. Caterpillars morph into butterflies. Sunflowers die, but thier seeds bring new life. It would follow that hit is a stage of deveoplment.
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| Jul 7 @ 7:59 PM |
Why do you believe what you do? |
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Heaveninawildflower
Posts: 14,775
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I believe what I do partly because it makes sense to me, but mostly because it feels right.
1 - I believe in a creator - it makes as much sense to me that the creator always was as it does that everything that is always was.
2- I believe that we all share in the creator - and I mean ALL, right down to the humblest amoeba. If we weren't made of the same stuff as the creator, who existed before anything else, where else would we come from? I'm of pretty much the same mindset as UAB's father - I believe he set the ball rolling but I don't believe that there's an anthropomorphic father with a long beard sitting on a throne, waiting to grant our requests.
3- I believe that prayer works, not because our creator is waiting to give us what we want, but because he gave us the ability to use the energies in this universe.
4- I think that's pretty much why we're here - we're learning and evolving. Occasionally many, if not most, of us get a peek behind the veil, and get that dizzying feeling where we realize we're part of all that there is, and that time really isn't linear - everything that ever was, is and always will be. We're a part of both eternity and infinity. What will we be doing with that knowledge? See item 5.
5 - I don't know or even care if there's something beyond this. It's great to speculate though - I think we're really spiritual beings having a physical experience....hence those peeks into what's way beyond our comprehension. I get seriously dizzy when I think about infinity, but I think eventually we may even get into the creation business ourselves, when we truly comprehend what we have withn us - remember what we're made of.
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| Jul 7 @ 8:00 PM |
Why do you believe what you do?
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hammertime
Posts: 13,746
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1. A creation implies a creator. There is too much engineering in things like the human hand, or a maple leaf, or even a snowflake for me to believe I happened with a design. A design requires a designer. Who says? There is no reason why something needs a designer. Every snowflake is a unique creation yet there is no creator. Also, there are self organizing systems that move to higher complexities without anyone's input. There are also self assembling carbon based systems. Sorry, no creator or designer. As you know all life is carbon based. Oh well.
. Things in the bible that turned out to be true, Versus what turned out to not be true? Whats the score on that? 
3. My brother's eye sight being restored after prayer. The doctor didn't even want to check it. The doctor was obviously incompetent and you should have filed a complaint and sued.
4. My own personal, subjective experiences (albeit few) I could tell you a few of my own experiences. Yes they are subjective and therefore anecdotal at best.
5. The logic. Why go through this life if there isn't something better coming on the back side? Ehhr, what logic? Why isn't life itself as you live it good enough?
6. The hints in nature. Caterpillars morph into butterflies. Sunflowers die, but thier seeds bring new life. It would follow that hit is a stage of deveoplment. Hints of what? That life is awesome? Thats no hint, thats the actual thing right there.
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| Jul 7 @ 8:23 PM |
Why do you believe what you do? |
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ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 4,057
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All good points Lance. Numbers 3 + 4 help ground your faith the most I'd wager.
(But be forewarned, personal testimony attracts accusations of suffering from a delusional mind.  )
[Edited on 7/7/2008 8:25 PM]
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| Jul 7 @ 8:24 PM |
Why do you believe what you do?
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Jankia
Posts: 8,798
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I was going to take the time to think this through until I saw what was expected done to Lance's comments by the OP.If you truly wanted to study the nature of knowledge in asking your questions you would debate the individuals answers not pick them apart to suit yourself.
You first stated this as an epistemological question but debating it with a lack of disciplined and critical thinking skill. shoots that idea all to hell doesnt it?
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| Jul 7 @ 8:36 PM |
Why do you believe what you do? |
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hammertime
Posts: 13,746
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But be forewarned, personal testimony attracts accusations of suffering from a delusional mind. In your case thats probably correct. Given your lack of knowledge about science which proves how temporal lope epilepsy distorts the mind and how certain brain cells when they malfunction cause a feedback making one feel someone else is in the room be it Jesus or Gnomes. Your personal experiences are not testimony at all but the experiences of a deranged mind. Science and psychology does explain how and why people hear voices in their heads, see hallucinations and why delusions follow.
[Edited on 7/7/2008 8:38 PM]
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