| Jul 7 @ 8:38 PM |
Why do you believe what you do?
|
|
ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 4,180
|
|
|
  |
|
| Jul 7 @ 8:46 PM |
Why do you believe what you do? |
|
hammertime
Posts: 14,071
|
I was going to take the time to think this through until I saw what was expected done to Lance's comments by the OP.
Its always good to think through your answer but what exactly was wrong with my responses to Lance's statements? I responded in a way he can respond back. Lance is very reasonable and logical despite some of his leaps of faith where logic disappears. For the most part he is a thinker and I respect thinkers. SOC's case is different. He is not a thinker but a dogma addict with serious distortions in his cognitive functioning.
The basic mistake of Christians is they confabulate their answers.
|
| |
|
| Jul 7 @ 9:52 PM |
Why do you believe what you do?
|
|
hammertime
Posts: 14,071
|
1 - I believe in a creator - it makes as much sense to me that the creator always was as it does that everything that is always was. It might make sense when you want to sum all the answers into a single entity but that doesn't explain why that would make it true. Its just a way of satisfying that big gap in what we don't know.
2- I believe that we all share in the creator - and I mean ALL, right down to the humblest amoeba. If we weren't made of the same stuff as the creator, who existed before anything else, where else would we come from? I'm of pretty much the same mindset as UAB's father - I believe he set the ball rolling but I don't believe that there's an anthropomorphic father with a long beard sitting on a throne, waiting to grant our requests. This is actually a more evolved idea of a god because one can believe in a god yet are personally responsible for themselves whereas the OT and NT god is involved in personal affairs. The problem still exists is why would this be true? Where are the facts and evidence? The other problem is the assumptions you need to make to postulate this god. You have to assume there is a prime mover for one. The idea of a prime mover is a single cause but with religious folks that cause is a god. There is nothing however that proves why or how there is any sort of god. You have to take a leap without logic or reasoning at that point. Thats the problem with ontological arguments that attempts to prove such a belief.
|
|
| |
|
| Jul 8 @ 6:11 AM |
Why do you believe what you do? |
|
Heaveninawildflower
Posts: 15,360
|
It might make sense when you want to sum all the answers into a single entity but that doesn't explain why that would make it true. Its just a way of satisfying that big gap in what we don't know.
Well yeah. So what? The one thing I'm absolutely sure of is that there is no way to prove whether there's a single entity or force that we can define as a creator. Calling for proof is a total waste of breath (or typing). If there is such an entity, I think we can assume that he/she/it is a heck of a lot smarter than we are, since we're not even at the stage of being able to create an amoeba, much less a universe. As I said in my post, part of why I believe what I do is because it makes sense, the larger part though is because it feels right. Anytime I've wrestled with a riddle or for that matter, a design problem at work, when something just clicks and feels right, that AH HA moment, every single time I've gone back and done a reality check on it, stepping backwards through the logic, its been right. I feel pretty comfortable with believing without having to prove anything (especially since I've already acknowledged that there really are some things that cannot be proven). I can't prove that there's other intelligent life in the universe, but I believe there is...so I'll happily go on with life believing as I do, mostly because it works for me, and I have no problem with others doing the same, as long as they don't try to force their beliefs (or lack thereof) on me.
|
| |
|
| Jul 8 @ 8:10 AM |
Why do you believe what you do?
|
|
sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
|
Heaven,
Excellent reply! 
Peace
|
|
| |
|
| Jul 8 @ 8:41 AM |
Why do you believe what you do? |
|
ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 4,180
|
You are not alone in believing that way either Heaven.
Most of us were born with such a belief.
A few of us try to teach ourselves to ignore such a suspicion. Difficulty ensues when we think too highly of ourselves. Some people have an overwhelming desire to believe that they are the King, or Queen, of the Castle. (This is dominated by men though.  )
Regardless of how successful we are in such a pursuit, we can never be completely successful at quieting this voice. We usually become bitter in the repeated failure.
|
| |
|
| Jul 8 @ 9:04 AM |
Why do you believe what you do?
|
|
hammertime
Posts: 14,071
|
Well yeah. So what? Well you're aware of your own criteria and thats good. You certainly know why you believe but that is your personal criteria that says "this is what I need","this is what I want" in a god. As for your gut feelings and Ah Ha moments are also quite valid in that it tells you this feels good and this feels right. That will work until something else shakes that up. We must trust our gut feelings because its the core of who we are. Even if we defer to a higher authority we still need to trust that authority somewhere somehow. But too many times our own gut feelings and instincts are wrong. Dead wrong when we drive in the interstate without enough gas or make a wrong judgment about the weather when we take out our boat. We see it everyday and that is why we have insurance. Most of the time our gut instincts are right when it comes to things that eventually reveal themselves but how does that happen for things that don't? We're still left waiting for results. Gut instincts are grown from experience. For things that can not be proven and to consider it a waste of time not to search for proof or evidence is making the assumption without any data. Why can't it be proven? Don't we owe it to ourselves to keep looking and learn what the truth is?
I think everyone chooses the god they want to believe in even if its an off the shelf god like the one in the OT and NT. Just that in those cases people work their definitions of that god within parameters of their particular sect and many sects disagree. So its not a matter of what is real or not but what we are willing to choose to believe if we are making those choices. Too many times its not a choice, its peer and cultural pressure or forced indoctrination. Personally I like the idea of the god invented by Spinoza whose god is revealed as our minds evolve and discover more about the world and the universe. Its the god of knowledge and wisdom whereas the god of the Bible gets smaller and smaller as we evolved. Its an idea of a god, not a personal god but just concept where we sum all the answers into a single entity
|
|
| |
|
| Jul 8 @ 9:10 AM |
Why do you believe what you do? |
|
LanceVarden7
Posts: 835
|
Who says? There is no reason why something needs a designer. Every snowflake is a unique creation yet there is no creator. Also, there are self organizing systems that move to higher complexities without anyone's input. There are also self assembling carbon based systems. Sorry, no creator or designer. As you know all life is carbon based. Oh well. Well to me, it is like slinging paint on the wall and it coming up looking like a portrait of Mona Lisa, os slinging a deck of cards across the floor and they come up sorted by rank and suit.
Versus what turned out to not be true? Whats the score on that? Well there really is no where for that to go since it is hopelessly biased toward the bible believers. The things that are not true can easily be declared as just not having happened yet.
The doctor was obviously incompetent and you should have filed a complaint and sued. Well, there wasn;t really much could be done. His eye filled with blood, and he couldn't see. Historically, when that happens, sometimes the blood is absorped into the eye, and sometimes its not, and they are just blind in that eye. If it gets absorped, it takes several days. For it to happen in a couple of hours is beyond reason. The eye is sealed. There is nowhere for it to go, other than being absorped by the skin.
I could tell you a few of my own experiences. Yes they are subjective and therefore anecdotal at best. Well, that is the thing about personal experiences, they aren't going to mean that much to most other folks. It is sort of like the Harley riders say, if you have experienced it, no explanation is needed. If not, none is possible.
Ehhr, what logic? Why isn't life itself as you live it good enough? Wow, where do I start. Body's that sweat and defecate. Good people getting cancer and dying. Assholes like Hitler and Stalin rising to power and making good people suffer. Having to spend most of your adult life working a job rather than pursuing your interests. A place where lies and deciet rule over truth and integrity. A place where a good hunk of the people professing to be Christian are condescending jerks (prerequisite hunt credit) Even things like the great outdooors are tainted with poison ivy and mosquitos. I could go on all day, but you get the picture. There HAS to be something better than this.
Hints of what? That life is awesome? Thats no hint, thats the actual thing right there. To me, catepillar changing to a butterfly indicates shedding one stage and going on to another. A sunflower dying, but passing life through its seed to another generation hints at immortality and change.
|
| |
|
| Jul 8 @ 9:27 AM |
Why do you believe what you do?
|
|
sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
|
SOC,
You've got mail.
Peace
|
|
| |
|
| Jul 8 @ 9:37 AM |
Why do you believe what you do? |
|
ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 4,180
|
Not as of 9:37 Tuesday morning I don't.
Peace. 
|
| |
|
| Jul 8 @ 9:42 AM |
Why do you believe what you do?
|
|
sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
|
SOC,
Then you must have me blocked.
Peace
|
|
| |
|
| Jul 8 @ 9:45 AM |
Why do you believe what you do? |
|
Heaveninawildflower
Posts: 15,360
|
For things that can not be proven and to consider it a waste of time not to search for proof or evidence is making the assumption without any data. Why can't it be proven? Don't we owe it to ourselves to keep looking and learn what the truth is?
That will depend on the person and their priorities. I've spent a considerable amount of time reading and thinking about theosophy, etc. I'm now 64 years old and have accepted that I will never come up with a design that will produce cold fusion, nor will I ever fully comprehend the universe, its origin or even its purpose. At this point I'd rather finally master cooking over a campfire, learn to drive a stick shift and get out into the wilderness (okay, as long as there's a shower nearby) because that's where I feel closer to the source of everything than I do anywhere else. If something comes up in discussions that sounds interesting, I'll look it up and read about it but I think somebody will solve cold fusion loooooooooong before anyone can prove how everything started and who or what was responsible.
|
| |
|
| Jul 8 @ 9:45 AM |
Why do you believe what you do?
|
|
hammertime
Posts: 14,071
|
Well to me, it is like slinging paint on the wall and it coming up looking like a portrait of Mona Lisa In terms of natural selection there is no reason ever for such a portrait to happen randomly but given enough time it just might. When you're consider that time could be billions of years there is nothing preventing it. And how many times have people looked at clouds and seen dragons, angels or the face of Jesus? What about finding Jesus on burnt toast. Thats been done. I'm sure there were Mona Lisas in there too. Yet your point is clear, there really is no reason for such a portrait to occur. As for throwing a deck of cards all sorted. Give me one reason why despite it being astronomically unlikely that it is impossible. People are winning the lottery everyday but what are your odds? Very slim.
The things that are not true can easily be declared as just not having happened yet. You mean things like the discovery the earth is 4.5 billion years old or the discovery that the earth is not flat? There are so many examples.
It is sort of like the Harley riders say, if you have experienced it, no explanation is needed. If not, none is possible. And that is why a Harley is going to be my 50th birthday present to myself. 
Wow, where do I start. Body's that sweat and defecate. Good people getting cancer and dying. Assholes like Hitler and Stalin rising to power and making good people suffer. Having to spend most of your adult life working a job rather than pursuing your interests. A place where lies and deciet rule over truth and integrity.........  Calm down buddy....I got the same gripes....I tell my friends that lots of people think I'm a proctologist because I keep meeting assholes and often the same ones. We can believe the grass is greener on the other side but you got your hand delt to you, now play it. You have the power to be happy if you really want to. Didn't Jesus say the kingdom of heaven is within. Did he mean after you're dead? Seems like its more about the here and the now. Hope for a better life after death is like trying to build condos on swamp land. Weren't many teachings attributed to Jesus about how to live while you're alive like forgiveness, turning the other cheek, doing onto others, and so on? There might have been talk about after life but most of it was about while you're alive. If enough people did this there wouldn't be anymore Hitlers and Stalins. Wasn't that the point?
To me, catepillar changing to a butterfly indicates shedding one stage and going on to another. A sunflower dying, but passing life through its seed to another generation hints at immortality and change. Perhaps the caterpiller could be a good symbol for the born again experience. The snake is a symbol for immortality.
|
|
| |
|
| Jul 8 @ 10:11 AM |
Why do you believe what you do? |
|
hammertime
Posts: 14,071
|
That will depend on the person and their priorities. I've spent a considerable amount of time reading and thinking about theosophy, etc. Theosophy???? Cool!!
There is a book I highly recommend that I owned and studied for many years.
THE SECRET TEACHINGS OF ALL AGES
AN ENCYCLOPEDIC OUTLINE OF
MASONIC, HERMETIC, QABBALISTIC AND ROSICRUCIAN
SYMBOLICAL PHILOSOPHY
Being an Interpretation of the
Secret Teachings concealed within the Rituals, Allegories, and Mysteries of all Ages
By
Manly P. Hall
There is an online copy too..
http://sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/index.htm
Manly P Hall also has many videos I've never seen
>>click<<
|
| |
|
| Jul 8 @ 10:18 AM |
Why do you believe what you do?
|
|
LanceVarden7
Posts: 835
|
And that is why a Harley is going to be my 50th birthday present to myself. Dang!!!! You are an old man!!! Too old to be tooling around on a motorbike. Me, on the other hand, I am a spring chicken at 48-1/2
|
|
| |
|
| Jul 8 @ 11:13 AM |
Why do you believe what you do? |
|
sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
|
SOC,
Why send me mail asking a question, if you have me blocked?
I answered your question.
Peace
|
| |
|
| Jul 8 @ 12:29 PM |
Why do you believe what you do?
|
|
ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 4,180
|
You are not blocked Sail.
|
|
| |
|
| Jul 8 @ 12:33 PM |
Why do you believe what you do? |
|
ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 4,180
|
Learning how to block someone requires a certain amount of thought. Regardless of how small that amount of thought would be, I would not want to waste it on anything of that nature.
|
| |
|
| Jul 8 @ 2:17 PM |
Why do you believe what you do?
|
|
kattsmeow
Posts: 21,280
|
SOC look in your filtered mail. All it takes is for you to have checked one thing to make mail go there. I have had the same problem here too.
|
|
| |
|
| Jul 8 @ 2:22 PM |
Why do you believe what you do? |
|
yashaenka
Posts: 4,639
|
Why does anyone believe anything, let alone religion? It is all that they know (be it right or wrong) at this point in their temporal existence!
I once believed in the Sand Man, Boggie Man, Tooth Fairy, etc.... because others told me it was so...Institutionalized Religions are just more of the same...
|
| |
|
|