| Aug 9 @ 8:10 PM |
Jesus and the Jewish Resistance
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,495
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I ran across this paper a while ago and bookmarked it for later review.
Uncrazy's posts of the last week or two have been very informative and have shown how when the books of the NT are looked at through the eyes of people of Jewish decent, a different story emerges.
This paper presents one of many Jewish accounts of the Jesus' story:
Jesus and the Jewish Resistance
I hope that this thread will allow members to delve deeper into Jewish history as related to the scriptures, especially in relation to the topic of this paper. I would appreciate input from members that agree with or disagree with the conclusions made therein.
Please do some analysis on the points raised in this paper and post your findings.
There are many threads where members can tear each other apart, we don't need another one.
I hope this thread will help to shed more light on Jesus' mission.
I have no preconceived opinion on this controversial paper. I just hope that everyone participating will come away with a better understanding of how different cultures view the NT.
Enjoy the read! I hope it interests you enough to research and post to this thread.
Peace
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| Aug 9 @ 8:26 PM |
Jesus and the Jewish Resistance |
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Gallows_Humor
Posts: 7,800
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the first issue in reading it that I disagree with...
At the same time, a Jew reading the Gospels is immediately aware of aspects which do not seem authentic; for example, the accounts of Pharisees wanting to kill Jesus because he healed on the Sabbath. The Pharisees never included healing in their list of activities forbidden on the Sabbath; and Jesus's methods of healing did not involve any of the activities that were forbidden. It is unlikely that they would have disapproved, even mildly, of Jesus's Sabbath-healing.
afaik ( and remember,....) the Pharisees went after Jesus for many reasons.. only one of which was not keeping holy the sabbath ..including but not limited to... healing  the biggest reason was that he was being herald as the Messiah ... 
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| Aug 9 @ 8:31 PM |
Jesus and the Jewish Resistance
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Gallows_Humor
Posts: 7,800
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the second issue is this...
How does it come about that a religion which borrows so heavily from Judaism has, for the major part of its history, regarded the Jews as pariahs and outcasts? In a civilization based on the Hebrew Scriptures, a civilization whose languages are permeated with Hebrew idioms, the Jews have been treated with extraordinary hate, culminating in the Holocaust of 6,000,000 European Jews during the Second World War.
Jesus was a jew.. born one..raised one..and died one... christianity came after his death.. and I refuse to proceed any further with the article because... the author went on a tangent of ........... poor me.. the world hates us... 
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| Aug 9 @ 9:01 PM |
Jesus and the Jewish Resistance |
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j_goose
Posts: 1,951
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Sail, just wanted you to know that I'm about done with the movie you suggested. And I'm just a little into this article.
So you know, not all of us will stop reading just because we think we're better than anyone else here. (or smarter  )
He's entertaining as well......almost as fun as Bev.
But another example of someone not wanting to see any other POV's than his own.
I'll take a further look at it and let you know what I think.
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| Aug 9 @ 9:08 PM |
Jesus and the Jewish Resistance
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,489
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GH,
As his enemies were all in the temple structure, we can consider that they could have been earned because he was violating temple rules by acting as a priest when he was in the line of kingship.
The story of Jarius and his daughter shows such a violation, but without knowledge of Jewish law on clean/unclean, the christian story cannot show this.
It is easy to forget the gospels are Jewish stories written by Jews about a cult breaking away from Judaism. After 45AD the mission settled at Ephesus can be seen as the organizational date for the christian church. The mission splitting along the dogmatic line between the two is represented by the tearing of the temple veil...the schism from Jonathan Annus is declared in words by Jesus.
I don't desire that any believe I cannot error in my understanding for we are dealing with an ancient and rich system of beliefs, now mostly forgotten by us, nor that nothing more is to be understood. Just undertanding the clocks in the gospels is difficult and often confuses me, the clock in Revelations even moreso.
Learning our lost history will take time, it took 400 hundred years to forget/lose this knowledge, with 1600 years added to that, of careful work by the church to declare what it all means.
The Jarius miracle on the other thread caused much hoopla, I am concerned of the reactions on the meaning of the word "dog".
I will always correct information I offer when I find it to be in error or when my current knowledge benefits from a better understanding of the rich complicated history of our religion. And I am not bothered that some think I offer points of discussion to deceive or mislead...people think what they wish and need to think.
We are really doing nothing more here than discussing our common illusions.
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| Aug 9 @ 9:11 PM |
Jesus and the Jewish Resistance |
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,489
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Sail,
It will take time to read as it is quite extensive, the man took time to offer his thoughts, I will take the time to study them.
Thank you for posting it.
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| Aug 9 @ 9:12 PM |
Jesus and the Jewish Resistance
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Thor1960303
Posts: 1,851
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I'm reminded of the character whom some think the historical Jesus is based on. Wasn't Yeshua Bin Pandera was a renegade Pharisee who lived around 100 BC? He was tried and convicted of sorcery and executed by stoning on Passover Eve. After stoning his body was hung on a tree.
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| Aug 9 @ 9:13 PM |
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BandTMom
Posts: 28,234
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Sail, I thought it was interesting that the Pharisees weren't the blood thirsty maniacs that they are portrayed in the Christian church today.
[Edited on 8/9/2008 9:35 PM]
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| Aug 9 @ 9:15 PM |
Jesus and the Jewish Resistance
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,489
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Thor,
was hung on a tree ...the second form of crucifixion.
The blending of stories makes them richer, but more clearly shows the fable of it.
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| Aug 9 @ 9:16 PM |
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Angel54214
Posts: 13,932
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We are really doing nothing more here than discussing our common illusions.
Uncrazy...there is always another path that is more lit than the one before. If it is chosen, the outcome will be the same as if it were dim, but with much more at ease.
*****
Good choice topic Sail 
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| Aug 9 @ 9:20 PM |
Jesus and the Jewish Resistance
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,489
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Angel54,
You are correct about the path...all lead to the same place.
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| Aug 9 @ 10:17 PM |
Jesus and the Jewish Resistance |
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kattsmeow
Posts: 21,239
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Lets not forget the pinned subjects we have at the top of this forum ok? Theres a lot of good stuff in there.
I haven't read the article yet either ok? Maybe I should ask my sister in law. She is Jewish.
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| Aug 9 @ 10:19 PM |
Jesus and the Jewish Resistance
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,495
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One of the first points that I found interesting was: As well as being a source of unquenchable optimism, Monotheism was unable to acknowledge defeat. Polytheistic nations could admit that their gods had proved weaker than those of Rome; or could succumb to Roman syncretism by which the undefeated gods were identified with the gods of Rome (e.g., Jupiter/Zeus/Ammon). The Jewish God, the creator of Heaven and Earth, could not submit to such annexation.... When the Jews were in fact defeated it meant not that God had been defeated but that God's people had failed in their mission and must re-dedicate themselves by repentance. This is the meaning of the campaigns of repentance ... which accompanied a Messianic movement.... Monotheism began as the religion of a band of runaway slaves; and it expressed their determination not to submit to any oppressive individual or class again. The idea that Jews considered repentance as a re-dedication of themselves for having failed in their mission is new to me. Being that Jesus and his apostles were Jewish, they would have considered "repentance" in the same way. This alone sheds a different light on the christian concept of repentance (which is to repent for sins committed).
Seems that the Jewish concept of repentance is "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again". It is not the looking back on mistakes, but looking forward to accomplishing a mission.
Peace
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| Aug 9 @ 10:23 PM |
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BandTMom
Posts: 28,234
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It is not the looking back on mistakes, but looking forward to accomplishing a mission.
Nice, Sail.
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| Aug 9 @ 11:03 PM |
Jesus and the Jewish Resistance
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Angel54214
Posts: 13,932
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Please do some analysis on the points raised in this paper and post your findings.
There are many threads where members can tear each other apart, we don't need another one.
I hope this thread will help to shed more light on Jesus' mission.
I have no preconceived opinion on this controversial paper. I just hope that everyone participating will come away with a better understanding of how different cultures view the NT.
Keeping this in mind, I would like to further the writer's examination of the Pharisees seeking to kill Jesus for his healing on the Sabbath:
I choose to add and continue what GH had quoted from the writer:
At the same time, a Jew reading the Gospels is immediately aware of aspects which do not seem authentic; for example, the accounts of Pharisees wanting to kill Jesus because he healed on the Sabbath. The Pharisees never included healing in their list of activities forbidden on the Sabbath; and Jesus's methods of healing did not involve any of the activities that were forbidden. It is unlikely that they would have disapproved, even mildly, of Jesus's Sabbath-healing. If we read the Gospel of John, chapter 11...we see the plotting plan to kill Jesus unfold:
46 But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done.
47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.
It seems the writer completely missed this important scripture. The Pharisees feared they would lose the Jews that followed their high court of law and follow Jesus instead. The Pharisees also feared that the Romans would take away from them their high council court of Jeruselem, and their whole nation Judea.
They feared these stumbling blocks in their minds so much, they planned to kill Jesus to prevent their loss. Caiaphas being the High Priest, disagrees and says it is a prophesy that this shall all take place and the Pharisees can not do anything to prevent what the near future will entail.
Jesus did heal on the Sabbath and continued to do so inspite of what the Pharisees list contained, for it was their own list and not the ordinance laws given by God from the beginning. The Pharisees were known to to break the Sabbath by circumsizing when it fell on the 8th day of a male child's birth. But yet they did not condemn themselves for choosing to do this particular practice, even though it was a work it was not forbidden by God from the beginning.
Jesus healed others on the Sabbath, but was being condemned by the Pharisees to make them whole and well. Jesus brings to their attention the original ordinance of the law of the Sabbath and reminds them how they were allowed to attend the sick and aid to those and animals that were in danger of being hurt or possibly to die on the Sabbath. (Read Luke 14)
Priests of the temple always worked on the Sabbath. Every Sabbath was of works in sequence to the Jewish teachings from the beginning. What the Pharisees did was change the ordinances from righteous judgement that God made with Israel, to unrighteous judgement in Judea.
[Edited on 8/9/2008 11:09 PM]
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| Aug 9 @ 11:09 PM |
Jesus and the Jewish Resistance |
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,489
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Sail,
The "Sinners" were the married men and women.
The "Saints" were those that maintained permanent celibacy, or returned to celibacy after giving birth to an heir.
There were violations of law...in my understanding the three gravest ones were adultery(and you could commit it with your wife), blaspheming the temple or God, and misuse of temple funds. Many other laws have been posted about on these forums.
The christian idea of sin and grades of sin is a bit different than the Jewish idea, although I did find a reference to a place in the temple(a step) where a penitent would stand to declare his transgression to a priest. A precursor to confession as a sacrament.
Everyone in the society strived to follow the law and since their community failures could be the cause of not reaching their goals, they would be quick to repent action not benefitting the whole society. There society was strengthened and focused by following the law. Failure to meet a goal on an expected date resulted in a change of leadership and repentance.
As you said much different from the christian idea about the same word.
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| Aug 9 @ 11:09 PM |
Jesus and the Jewish Resistance
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Gallows_Humor
Posts: 7,800
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two points... one.. thank you un... your points are valid..and are spoken without a hidden agenda... I agree with them entirely ...
and two... goose.. you know not who you are dealing with.. you are an amateur in your beliefs..and a bit of a pain it the ass...it is out of respect for cold that I have let your ranting slide... but you crossed the line here... so... let the games begin...  .........
Please do some analysis on the points raised in this paper and post your findings. I did as sail asked without any attacks.. and voiced my opinion which I own.. but you, jackass decided to start out with personal attacks in this thread.. it shows just how naive and juvenile you are... 
edited for spelling....
[Edited on 8/9/2008 11:33 PM]
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| Aug 9 @ 11:19 PM |
Jesus and the Jewish Resistance |
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BandTMom
Posts: 28,234
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Sail said:
There are many threads where members can tear each other apart, we don't need another one.
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| Aug 9 @ 11:32 PM |
Jesus and the Jewish Resistance
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Gallows_Humor
Posts: 7,800
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exactly right mom..and who drew first??
...the gooseman did...
btw,,,,
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| Aug 9 @ 11:33 PM |
Jesus and the Jewish Resistance |
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BandTMom
Posts: 28,234
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Does it matter who wagged first?
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