| Aug 14, 2008 @ 12:36 PM |
The Supernatural: How Far Does the Rabbit Hole Go?
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Thor1960303
Posts: 3,345
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The terms "supernatural" or "paranormal" are misnomers. Nothing can be truly supernatural as it implies a violation of the laws of physics. There are things, however, that can be deemed, "unexplained". Does this mean that they will remain this way? Certainly not, and when they become explained, they no longer can be deemed supernatural. Kind of like the old platitude, "expect the unexpected", for when something becomes expected, it no,longer is unexpected.
Yet Christians seem to rely on the ability to just explain everything in their terms as "supernatural." How could there have been a global flood when there is no geologic evidence and the fact that there isn't enough water to completely cover the planet? Answer: God dit it, it's supernatural. How can the world be only 6000 years old? Answer: God did it, it's supernatural.
When the mind begins to ignore fact and common sense in order to allow for the supernatural, how far can this go? There is the belief in a devil who can perform couterfiet miracles to decieve, and he has a host of demons. I remember when I took some seminary classes back in the early 80's, I overheard pastors and students having a conversation about demonic possession and haunted houses. They relayed stories to each other that they had "heard" from their fellow brethren of the cloth about houses that were haunted because the previous tenents were Satanists and how demons would manifest themselves in certain forms (not unlike Bev's stories of supernatural events). What's interesting is that these guys weren't out and out nutcases. They were regular seeming guys who held down day jobs, yet at the end of the day, there were two worlds in their reality. The world we see and a hidden world of the unseen, a place where demons and angels fought over the control of people's souls and minds and they were convinced that this was reality.
How far does this go? If you allow for a hidden world of unseen beings, does this mean that there is (at least in their minds anyway) a world where vampires,goblins and unicorns exist? A world of make believe where solid objects pass through each other? A world that is supposed to influence this one? How far can these people take their fantasies? If it's based on the Bible, then everything unicorns (Job 39) to talking donkeys could exist. How far does this go?
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| Aug 14, 2008 @ 2:24 PM |
The Supernatural: How Far Does the Rabbit Hole Go? |
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canadianbbw
Posts: 84
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I never really thought of this, but you are right, the terms "supernatural" and "paranormal" are misnomers. Because to me, all things are ultimately explainable, it makes no sense otherwise. I am one, however, who does believe in ghosts and the spirit world, and to me, that side of life is as real as the corporeal one. I understand some would call such beliefs fantasies, but I just can't explain that belief, it has always been there, since I was a child. To me Earth is like a school, and one of the key lessons to learn here is, learning to accept and tolerate different belief systems. I believe we are meant to have different beliefs. I believe in Jesus as a Master, one of many, but I don't believe we are all supposed to be Christians.
Mind you, some things I have a harder time accepting, like faeries and goblins; there are those who call themselves Otherkin, they believe in such things, and I'm fine with that, vive la difference, I just don't think of faeries too much. Is it fantasy? Maybe. But I don't know, and that's ok by me.
It's easy to call someone crazy when they have spiritual beliefs different from our own. A few years ago, I got upset with a woman I knew online. She calls herself a lightworker, a popular New age concept these days. She talked of taking a sword of light and chopping off the heads of demons while she meditated. Well to me that was not a good sign of mental health. She was trying to feel superior to the average person, to bolster her ego. That and she called me the Evil One. I guess my point is, sometimes people very clearly have mental health issues; sometimes they just believe in things I don't, and that's ok. The thing is, are they hurting other people with these beliefs? Then it's a real danger.
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| Aug 14, 2008 @ 2:43 PM |
The Supernatural: How Far Does the Rabbit Hole Go?
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bevrice
Posts: 11,141
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Lol, well I guess if she could chop off the heads of demons while she meditated, more power to her.
There is mental illness everywhere and I just did a post of a study that Rutgers did that said that atheists were more prone to mental illness. It also talked of the overall better health and emotional stability of people who have faith.
If you have never experienced the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit, then I am sad, it is an awesome thing, and totally unexplainable by natural means, but then again, something you have to experience to know it. It is very, very real.
There are things that we have everyday, that if they just happened once, we would see them as a miracle. Consider the sunrise, the moon controlling the tides, plants and trees bearing fruit, birds flying, even the miracle of birth itself.
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| Aug 14, 2008 @ 3:06 PM |
The Supernatural: How Far Does the Rabbit Hole Go? |
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bevrice
Posts: 11,141
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UCLA even has a group of paranormal reseachers, you know, thor.
Demons, ghosts, thor, considering the number of programs on tv investigating that every week, how can you doubt? Have you ever watched any of them. They try to debunk hauntings and ghosts, but somethings they just can't explain, such as evps, these are voices that they get on recorders when they ask questions, with lots of answers and voices. The spiritual world DOES exist, science is finding out more and more.
Some things can just not be explained by physics, thor.
Sure don't want any demons or ghosts in MY house.
Satan is alive and well on planet earth, thor.
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| Aug 14, 2008 @ 3:09 PM |
The Supernatural: How Far Does the Rabbit Hole Go?
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canadianbbw
Posts: 84
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Hi Bev,
yeah, this lady said she used to chop those heads off regularly, but it was so draining, she had to stop doing it. She was on effexor, ativan, lunestra, neurotin, trazadone and muscle relaxers, she should have been on seroquel too, in my humble opinion. Even if such a thing was possible, I don't think a mere human would be up to the job, and especially not one so unwell.
I think you're a nice lady and I do admire that you stick around even though your own mental health is impugned here, but I do disagree that atheists are more prone to mental illness. I haven't read any studies on the matter, but it doesn't make sense to me. To me, atheists are meant to be here too, and they often play an important role in making people really think about spiritual matters.
I've never experienced the Holy Spirit. I was raised Catholic by some truly emotionally messed up parents and that was enough exposure to organized religion for me. I still remember the huge crucifix at the alter of St Catherine of Siena church with the streams of blood running down his wounds, leaves quite an impression on a kid. I'd say don't be sad for me, but I guess you'll be sad anyway. I do believe what you feel is very real to you. I do agree, the natural world is very spiritual...
I think I got off topic, sorry Thor...
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| Aug 14, 2008 @ 3:23 PM |
The Supernatural: How Far Does the Rabbit Hole Go? |
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bevrice
Posts: 11,141
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That lady was just a little disturbed, lol, I have seen those, but non Christians do nutty things, too. Poor old woman. I can understand why you could think we are all that way, but that isn't true, she was just not well, sweetie.
I am sorry you had to look at that crucifix with the blood streaming down. Protestant Churches always have an empty cross, if they have a cross at all. For us the empty cross signifies that He has risen. I don't think I could have taken the blood one either.
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| Aug 14, 2008 @ 3:23 PM |
The Supernatural: How Far Does the Rabbit Hole Go?
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uncrazy
Posts: 2,382
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Bev,
Take a glass milk bottle with an opening in the neck about 1.75 inches wide.
Set an egg on the glass ring of the bottle
After putting a cotton pad in the bottom of the bottle in case the egg falls through.
Both a scientist and a magician can get the egg in the bottle without breaking it.
Scientists can explain why it happened,
The Magician knows the science and sell magic,
The superstitious who declare knowledge is useless will call it magic.
All are happy, but the scientist is the only person of the two that can get the egg out of the bottle without breaking it, unless the magician uses science a second time on his new trick.
The magic of the priests of pharoah matched against the miracle of Moses and Aaron was high science...Moses had more training...I'll give you a hint, Moses was a high initiate of the temple school teaching the use of light and sound.
Use your gifts to tell us Moses's or Aarons Egyptian names, then tell us the Hebrew name for the pharoah Aye. Or a very easy one...the Egyptian name of Joseph with the colored coat.
[Edited on 8/14/2008 3:26 PM]
[Edited on 8/14/2008 3:48 PM]
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| Aug 14, 2008 @ 3:25 PM |
The Supernatural: How Far Does the Rabbit Hole Go? |
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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If you have never experienced the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit Experienced how? Voices? Hallucinations? Feeling of hands on you?
SOC's hallucinations...
I've written before of how, many years ago, in 1986, I experienced communion with God. The conversation took place on 3 consecutive nights while I lay in bed.
These conversations took place in and around a prayer. I was feeling desperate and very alone + filled with fear, as I lay in my bed in a bedroom on the ground floor of a drapeless 2-bedroom apartment. It was my first night alone in a body then unable to effectively deal with most interactions usually-necessary for a single adult in this society.
I knew the basics of prayer. I just hadn't been the author of one in 10-15 years.
I asked God to help me.
And I asked Him to protect me.
Those first 2 nights here, the prayer was really short.
Then on the 3rd night, I began the prayer the usual way, but then something changed a little.
I'm unable to accurately describe it, but something like the voice-of-conscience each of us has, sounded inside my head. These days, SOC is now claiming it wasn't inside his head.
It was something else again. A little more intense.
This Voice repeated my requests back to me.
Then in a tone I could not ignore, I was assured of the granting of my requests. The voice, So you want healing....what are you willing to sacrifice to Me?
A quick check of my personal inventory revealed no livestock. Not much of anything really.
But my thoughts went to those things I most enjoyed in life.
It was a no-brainer: SEX.
=========================================================================
Bev hears voices and feels hands on her.
This morning I was thinking about the date I was planning for this week end, he was driving a great distance here and was going to stay in town. I was getting ready to pour my coffee and suddenly, it was like I was physically pushed backwards and I heard, "BACK OFF." Lol, I love it, guess who was telling me that that one wasn't going to happen either to just back off. Now, I know you guys will think I am hearing voices, am crazy, but I am not, and voices don't push you backwards, not enough to make me think I would fall, but enough to know that I was thinking about meeting the wrong man.
There was also a hallucination she had while driving. Three cars passed each other on a two lane bridge. She was driving one of them. 
Another occasion she was doing an exorcism on one of her victims. She said the girl's eyes were changing colors...
Actually, I've never heard of any atheists having these kind of hallucinations. What we do know is if you have the right kind of hallucinations from mental illness, you can be a Christian.
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| Aug 14, 2008 @ 4:10 PM |
The Supernatural: How Far Does the Rabbit Hole Go?
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canadianbbw
Posts: 84
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Bev, I don't think all Christians are that disturbed, in fact I have some lovely neighbours who are diehard Christians, so much so they've never let their kids go out on Hallowe'en, but I don't consider them mentally ill, it's just their faith, and it works for them. Yes, people can be nutty no matter their faith.
I am quite reticent to diagnose someone as mentally ill, especially over the internet. I am not a psychiatrist, and if I were one, it would be unethical for me to diagnose through this medium. And if I were to reveal a couple of things I do believe, I would be labelled that way too, and like, I really don't need that.
I have read the posts where you talk about the bridge and other such things, and I still don't want to put that label out. I am not qualified, and after the 1000th diagnosis, I don't know what the point is. I GET IT, some people think you're nuts. But if you were, is there not such a thing as compassion? Are we not supposed to feel for the mentally ill person?
On the other hand, Bev, do you see the spirituality (for lack of a better word) that some of the most vocal non-Christians display here? Their love of animals, for example, shows a deep "spirituality". These are not "lost" people by any means.
Something in this post that may actually be on topic---I was wondering Bev, I believe you said somewhere that your mother (I think) , after her death, would drop pennies for you? This is something I've heard other people say their dearly departed have done. But is it not your belief, as a Christian, that one sleeps until the Resurrection and Judgement? How does one's spirit drop pennies then? Maybe I misunderstood what you said....
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| Aug 14, 2008 @ 4:24 PM |
The Supernatural: How Far Does the Rabbit Hole Go? |
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uncrazy
Posts: 2,382
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Miracles can be described as violations of the accepted and expected rule we use to predict outcomes.
The word "violations" seems innocent enough until I suggest that the bible OT/NT miracles also describe violations of temple structure and ritual.
That these were acts of God and miracles is likely, for no one in the temple system could violate its rules and structures without being killed or cast out...the violater would have to be God or someone the power of the Jewish temple couldn't reach, to not pay the human consequence of some of these unloving acts.
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| Aug 14, 2008 @ 4:41 PM |
The Supernatural: How Far Does the Rabbit Hole Go?
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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canadianbbw
Your profile indicates spiritual but I believe if you are a Christian you're one of the rational ones. You obviously have organized thoughts. We have another Christian, Lance who is a thinker and that bothers fundamentalists like Bev who are against anyone with a mind of their own. Lance believes in many of the supernatural things Bev does but the difference with him is he realizes what does and doesn't have evidence, what is provable and what isn't. He can be reasoned with and has no fear saying he doesn't know something.
The spiritual path is certainly an emotional one but its also one of intellect, reason, science, facts, evidence. The spiritual path is one of reality where the religious path is one of ignorance and superstition. While all people have faith, to the religious person its everything, to a rational person its a cause for concern and a need to discover the truth. Faith means we have no evidence, no facts, no proof. Faith, by definition is unexamined. I always have faith when i drive my car because I do not know or can predict whether a lunatic is on the road. Faith happens when you have no control. As you can see, Bev's driving experience would be someone else's doom. All anyone can have is faith in those circumstances.
Folks like Bev, SOC, Hunt and some other trollish visitors have shown a huge amount of religious bigotry against all other faiths and religions. I can post the proof. They have written that Buddhists worship holes in wood, that Hindus and Native Americans worship demons, etc. Jesus is the ONLY way and alll others will suffer eternal torment. As you can see we are dealing with a mental health issue that is divisive, ridiculous and potentially dangerous especially when they say they will be obedient to voices they hear in their head. Religion is a cover up and a catalyst for psychopathological behavior.
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| Aug 14, 2008 @ 5:17 PM |
The Supernatural: How Far Does the Rabbit Hole Go? |
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bevrice
Posts: 11,141
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Lol, hammer, you are so full of it.
Now, yes, those things did happen for me, but miracles are NOT hallucinations.
Canadian, no, another person had pennies all over her house, not me.
I believe we go straight to heaven when we die if we believe. But I do believe we have to be saved to go there.
I see their love for animals, yes, I do, but Christians love animals, too, it is just what ever nature we are born with. I have a sister that is a big animal lover.
Lol, I just don't happen to have any spare love for snakes.
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| Aug 14, 2008 @ 5:36 PM |
The Supernatural: How Far Does the Rabbit Hole Go?
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uncrazy
Posts: 2,382
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A Metaphor
Sometimes when I look at my life I see a path I walk. Periodically I approach a gate across my path with a sign on the post reading "death". Thinking it an odd joke, I walk throught the gate and looking back I notice the sign on the post reading "life".
As I continue on, another gate confronts me and the sign says "life". Passing through and looking back, I read the sign reading "death. This goes on and on, the constant in the walk is me and the path.
Sideroads marked paradise and hades tempt me, but I have not need of a latrine or washroom...and I'm told by others on this path that if I go there I will be temporarily locked in until I desire to return to this path.
Looking far back to my first steps on this path, I remember the sign read "Heaven", a Unique Experience That Teaches Much" with a little note on the bottom saying "You must be 43 inches tall to ride this amusement".
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| Aug 14, 2008 @ 5:43 PM |
The Supernatural: How Far Does the Rabbit Hole Go? |
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canadianbbw
Posts: 84
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Thank you Hammer,
I actually was thinking of you as the example I was referring to, of a vocal non-Christian who comes across as "spiritual"---I wish I had another word at hand, no offense intended. For me, anyone can be deeply "spiritual", the atheist, people of other faiths---and some of organized religions can be anything but. It is more the awareness and understanding of the connection between all life.
I cannot really call myself Christian anymore, because, though I believe Jesus is a real spiritual figure, I don't believe he died to save us, and I don't believe we sin. So that makes me a pretty rotten Christian, I guess. I do feel he is real, as I say, and I take to heart his core message of love and compassion. But I always was offended by those trying to convert others to Christianity. We have a food bank here in town, and it bothers me a lot that there is a tv on in the waiting area with a tape of a preacher, and people have no choice but to listen to him if they want any food. To me a true "Christian" act, so to speak, would be to simply help for its own sake, and not make people who might have different beliefs listen to this. I feel this sort of thing turns people off to Christianity.
I am ok saying, "I don't know". I can't explain my beliefs, and I'm not well-versed in the Bible or other books, as others are. I'm ok with that. I can think of Jesus as close to me, I can also read Paramahansa Yogananda, and feel no conflict in my heart. I don't think the religious differences matter much in the end.
I know, I have read the statements made about other faiths. I know these Christians truly do believe in what they say, I know they are really trying to "save" people from what they see as the folly of their beliefs. I try to look compassionately at all times, because it is their truth, and very real to them. I'm not sure why they don't see that other people have faiths--or a lack thereof---equally as real. Although you would say, because they are mentally ill. There is fear, it seems, fear in not following The Word, but I cannot follow anything that teaches me fear. To me, all life is connected, we are not separate from the natural world or in "dominion" of it, or even separate really, from the spiritual world. But I can't explain these beliefs, they just make sense to me.
Sorry, once again I'm 
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| Aug 14, 2008 @ 8:20 PM |
The Supernatural: How Far Does the Rabbit Hole Go?
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Thor1960303
Posts: 3,345
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They try to debunk hauntings and ghosts, but somethings they just can't explain, such as evps, these are voices that they get on recorders when they ask questions, with lots of answers and voices.
Many of those things HAVE been debunked, Bev, National Geographic did a really cool documentary on their series, "Is it real?" EVP's, "orb" photos, EMR readings and such, were all examined and debunked on that show.
Some things can just not be explained by physics, thor.
Maybe not now, but eventually they will be, in my opinion.
Protestant Churches always have an empty cross, if they have a cross at all. For us the empty cross signifies that He has risen.
More historical ignorance. The cross originally symbolized the vernal equinox. You even see it now on some churches, a cross with a circle, as well as the halo around Christ's head. Jesus is another solar diety, that much has been historically proven as far as I'm concerned.
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| Aug 14, 2008 @ 10:26 PM |
The Supernatural: How Far Does the Rabbit Hole Go? |
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Jankia
Posts: 11,906
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When the mind begins to ignore fact and common sense in order to allow for the supernatural, how far can this go?
Which facts about Christianity did you ignore to say this?
Yet Christians seem to rely on the ability to just explain everything in their terms as "supernatural." If common sense werent ignored as well in that statement,I dont think you would have made it.Ive never personally come across a Christian that uses "supernatural" to explain "everything".
God is natural,the same as everything else.Natural is understood,legendary creatures like what you spoke of vampires,goblins and unicorns are not supernatural,they are fiction.
Nothing can be truly supernatural as it implies a violation of the laws of physics. There are things, however, that can be deemed, "unexplained". You said there isnt any geologic evidence of a massive flood when there is, so the "unexplainable" is an excuse sometimes for those that are simply unaware of or do not accept what is explained.
Supernatural to me is the unexplained...the unknown.Science doesnt refer to the unknown as supernatural and some of our greatest scientists in the world believed in a God.
Everything is natural,just because a person doesnt accept anothers proof of something doesnt make it supernatural.
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| Aug 14, 2008 @ 10:45 PM |
The Supernatural: How Far Does the Rabbit Hole Go?
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uncrazy
Posts: 2,382
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Jankia,
If water even covered the the earth to 4 feet over the highest mountain peaks, heck, use 1 foot over...it would take multi-milleniums to evaporate...and evaporation would be the only way the water could dissipate. In the condition described in the bible that we are to hold true, there is no place this water could drain into.
Using an idea offered earlier, we could have God again dividing the face of the waters, but that is not even close to suggested in the Noah story.
Something else sits in the story...someday we will figure it out...but believing the current one is truth doesn't help us.
We can look to geology and find a large water event in 15,000BC where I've read the western wall of the Mediterranean Sea split at Gibraltar. This caused the flooding of the Atlantic into the mediterranean plain. Even this story isn't telling us of a flood the size of our bible story.
I believe knowledge will prove useful eventually, as I believe it is a gift from God...but we gotta earn it by filling in the truth.
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| Aug 14, 2008 @ 11:47 PM |
The Supernatural: How Far Does the Rabbit Hole Go? |
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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For me, anyone can be deeply "spiritual", the atheist, people of other faiths---and some of organized religions can be anything but. It is more the awareness and understanding of the connection between all life. All things are connected and anyone who sees that is on a spiritual road. The awareness part is our consciousness experiencing it.
I cannot really call myself Christian anymore, because, though I believe Jesus is a real spiritual figure, I don't believe he died to save us, and I don't believe we sin. So that makes me a pretty rotten Christian, I guess. I do feel he is real, as I say, and I take to heart his core message of love and compassion. I hope you mean "rotten" sarcastically but that just goes to show the guilt and fear associated with an insane ideology that threatens you with hell, fire, Satan and eternal torment. That you see Jesus as a symbol of love and compassion makes you a far better Christian than those who call themselves Christian. I see the crucifixion is an metaphor for something you do spiritually but the profane see it as a literal death and resurrection. Its actually a common motif in the man-god virgin birth myths. Dozens have died and rose again. The worst part of Christianity is the immediate guilt of sin inflicted by Christians on a new born child. Its subtle but very psychologically damaging to self-esteem and self-worth. The Christian dogma sets out to make all humans as damaged, ungood, unclean, unright, corrupted and evil the day you are born. Is it any wonder we find so many Christians who are delusional, bigoted, ranting psychopaths?
But I always was offended by those trying to convert others to Christianity. Well then you would be also offended by the Inquisitions, the dozens of Crusades, Witch hunts, Blood libels, The Jewish Holocaust, Martin Luther's call for the destruction of Jews, the slaughter of pagans and anyone else, the early church fathers creating a religion that is self serving and condemning. There are 2000 years of forced indoctrination of indigenous cultures throughout the world. Any kind and compassionate person would be offended.
I know, I have read the statements made about other faiths. I know these Christians truly do believe in what they say, I know they are really trying to "save" people from what they see as the folly of their beliefs. I try to look compassionately at all times, because it is their truth, and very real to them. I'm not sure why they don't see that other people have faiths--or a lack thereof---equally as real. Although you would say, because they are mentally ill. Well, that is their conditioning from years of brainwashing. They are completely ignorant of the origins of their own religion and openly disrespect other religions and faiths. Their legacy has been destructive and that makes them hardly a spiritual group of people. They are anti-philosophy, anti-wisdom, and anti-knowledge. The thing that makes them mentally ill is what results from their obsessive-compulsive religiosity, their cognitive distortions in their mind, their superstitions, hallucinations, delusions, etc. For example..Now, yes, those things did happen for me, but miracles are NOT hallucinations.
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| Aug 15, 2008 @ 12:04 AM |
The Supernatural: How Far Does the Rabbit Hole Go?
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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Jankia wrote God is natural,the same as everything else.Natural is understood,legendary creatures like what you spoke of vampires,goblins and unicorns are not supernatural,they are fiction.
Its so good you believe unicorns are fiction because the Bible, your book of fiction says they're real....
Job 39:9
Psalm 92:10
Psalm 29:6
Numbers 24:8
Just a few examples in the book of fiction you call the Bible. Brilliant research from a man who proved god exists has now disproven unicorns exist as well as vampires and goblins. 
Supernatural to me is the unexplained...the unknown.Science doesnt refer to the unknown as supernatural and some of our greatest scientists in the world believed in a God. They don't believe in the same god as you. They don't believe the world was created in 6 days or Jesus walked on water. They believe in a far more sophisticated god. A Spinozian God that Einstein adopted for example. Their concept of the universe would be far more sophisticated than some inbred hillbilly snake handler. They would also modify their beliefs as scientific knowledge was acquired. In other words, there aren't any scientists fighting the battle that unicorns are real or there was a world wide flood. Oh wait, you don't believe unicorns exist either. Brilliant!!! You're a scientist.
[Edited on 8/15/2008 12:13 AM]
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| Aug 15, 2008 @ 12:24 PM |
The Supernatural: How Far Does the Rabbit Hole Go? |
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Thor1960303
Posts: 3,345
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Which facts about Christianity did you ignore to say this?
You mean there are facts in Christianity? 
Ive never personally come across a Christian that uses "supernatural" to explain "everything".
God is natural,the same as everything else.Natural is understood,
So being born of a virgin, walking on water, dead and resurrected, these things are all natural?
Everything is natural,just because a person doesnt accept anothers proof of something doesnt make it supernatural.
What proof?
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