| Aug 14 @ 2:20 PM |
Exodus...A Neat Story
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,489
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I stumbled on an interesting line in the header to a web site.
http://de-conversion.com/2007/06/18/bible-miracles-2000000-jews-spent-40-years-taking-an-11-day-trip-and-left-no-evidence/
This is an example of how the story grows to have great significance to both Jews and Christians.
2 Million Jews spent 40 years taking an 11 day trip in the desert and left no evidence.
First we have no idea how big the land was and the size of the desert they walked in and we will not be encouraged to look. The count of the walkers makes me wonder why they would worry about pharoah. Pharoahs army was likely no larger than 300,000 men.
And everybody Jew and soldier had access to spears, knives and sticks. How many thousands of Jews and christians have studied this trek for millions of hours and still not see it was an 11 day trip the bible story talks about.
It is very important that we hold onto "approved truth"...we show we are still deathly afraid of the world we live in....how can 2 billion people be wrong...easy...it was an 11 day trip that turned into a 40 year walk-a-bout.
[Edited on 8/14/2008 3:02 PM]
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| Aug 14 @ 2:33 PM |
Exodus...A Neat Story |
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,489
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This is only one example where Jews and Christians have no desire to know anything but the approved truth.
Knowledge and wisdom have no value to them unless it is approved.
This is not a blanket statement, but directed at those that tell us in these forums how we are in error, twist words, and have lost salvation and our knowledge is useless.
[Edited on 8/14/2008 2:36 PM]
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| Aug 14 @ 2:35 PM |
Exodus...A Neat Story
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Angel54214
Posts: 13,932
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Uncrazy...thank you for this thread and also for posting a link in observation. I will relax and read it through as well as contribute when my time has appoved allowance...lol.
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| Aug 14 @ 2:58 PM |
Exodus...A Neat Story |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,495
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uncrazy,
I can't get your link to work.
Peace
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| Aug 14 @ 6:11 PM |
Exodus...A Neat Story
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,489
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Sail,
It should work now.
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| Aug 14 @ 6:49 PM |
Exodus...A Neat Story |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,495
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Thank you uncrazy.
Peace
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| Aug 14 @ 9:16 PM |
Exodus...A Neat Story
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,489
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Unknown History...
I made the error of assuming that because people talk freely and casually about the Exodus story located in the Sinai desert, that we know the where and what size area we are discussing.
Doing a little research without using Wiki, I found information on size, shape and location of this monstrous desert. Knowing from other study that because Jews measured time, they knew they walked at a rate of 2 kilometers/hour over decent ground. Some priests walked slower, but that was part of temple structure.
Naturally, horse(15km/hr) and donkeys(7.5km/hr) were quicker, but that is not important because the Exodus was a walk, and the Egyptians had the horses and chariots.
The desert is located in northeast Egypt, and has a triangular shape. Text says it was 150 miles(240Kilometers) wide and 230 miles(370kilometers) long.
Realizing that it was a triangle shape, it will be easier if we make a square in our minds eye with a width of 240km and length of 370km. Remember now, our example has the area in our picture as twice as large as the real desert is, but we can draw a diagonal line to connect two opposite corners to make our bos match the sahpe of the desert.
Knowing how fast men walked, at their rate I could walk from east edge to west edge in 5 days. From the north edge to the south edge I could walk the distance in 8 days. The longest part of the journey represented by the diagonal could be walked in 10.9 days.
This is nothing more than simple arithmetic...a 3rd grade test question.
These numbers will hold up valid, only changing if we drag along, or if it rains. But it won't take forty years to crawl this desert.
Why have so many so willingly bought into this story as the only approved truth for so many centuries? Two great religions without thinking have no ability to see what this story is really telling us...and they did this following God directions. They should have used a map and avoided the hassle. And we should be grateful for Gods attention for getting us out of Egypt...people who loved themselves would have went back to Egypt, they were never more than two weeks away.
At 55 mile per hour in a car we can drive the across this desert in less than 6 hours. If i visit this area I will probably not ask for God's help to cross this desert, with gas prices what they are and limited vacation time.
2,000,000 bodies based on 600K men leaving Egypt.
This many people marching would side by side would look like this:
A column of folks 1/2 mile wide and 2 miles long.
[Edited on 8/14/2008 9:38 PM]
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| Aug 14 @ 9:53 PM |
Exodus...A Neat Story |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,495
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uncrazy,
Another way to look at how rediculous the exodus story is, would be to realize that the if 2 million people stood with arms extended and fingers touching, they would be able to completely cover the desert's perimeter three times with people to spare.
The arm span of a normal man/woman is slightly less than 2 meters. That means that 2 million people can make a chain covering more than 3.5 million meters or 3,500 kilometers. The perimeter of the desert is less than 1,000 kilometers.
What a hoax!
Peace
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| Aug 14 @ 10:02 PM |
Exodus...A Neat Story
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,489
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Sail,
The 600,00 men alone who left Egypt could have circled the perimeter of the desert once with spares.
But wait, there must be an explanation from the church or temple that explains this correctly for us.
I await the answer.
Don't the OT and NT have a lot of places where it seems to say...heh you, look at this closely and use your mind.
This story is telling us something but it isn't what we've been told so far.
Discernment has no need of arithmetic.
[Edited on 8/14/2008 10:31 PM]
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| Aug 14 @ 11:51 PM |
Exodus...A Neat Story |
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SunBabe
Posts: 12,243
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This isn't related, I'm sure, but I did find in extremely interesting, especially after reading your link.
http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-sahara15-2008aug15,0,3774647.story
(be sure and check out the releated links, too...facinating  )
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| Aug 15 @ 12:08 AM |
Exodus...A Neat Story
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Angel54214
Posts: 13,932
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Uncrazy...from the book of Exodus it is written that on the 15th day of the second month (Hebrew/Jewish calendar), which would be Ijar and our greek calendar it would be April/May. At their departure from Egypt, it was the 15th day of Abib; March/April, and after they passed through the red sea, had come to the "wilderness of sin" which is between Elim and Sinai and was at the border of the red sea.
Then in the third month (Sivan...May/June), on the exact same day (15th), they came into the "wilderness of Sinai." They camped in the wilderness which was in front of the mountain.
The "wilderness of zin", was on the other side (western), of Mount Sinai.
The Israelites lived in the wilderness of Sinai for forty years and were fed manna and quail. This forty years was the timeframe that that still dwelt with Moses until he died, for he could not cross the wilderness into Canaan. After Moses died, Joshua and Caleb lead the Israelites into the vast land of Canaan where they first arrived in this land, they found habitation of food and water.
So their journey from Egypt to Mount Sinai was 3 months. Taking into consideration also that the Israelites consisted of children, women (child bearing included), and elderly as well as mixed ages of men. Also to take into consideration they were ambushed by the Amalekites and they had to take a different route which was a longer one to get to the "wilderness of sin." For the ambush took place in Rephidim and was a wadi pass, which was between "wilderness of sin" and "wilderness of sinai". God instructed Joshua to write in a book of this event.
Another interesting study Uncrazy is the Haribu (Egyptian) and the aribu (Sumarian). Stele's and tablets mention them and the cities that they lived in as well as the nations and their people. The Amarna Letters of the Egyptians and the Akkadian texts and not to exclude the Hittite and the Ugarit writings that speak of them including names of the Israelites.
Wanted to add this scripture for interest...
Exod. 13:
17 And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt:
18 But God led the people about, through the way of the wilderness of the Red sea: and the children of Israel went up harnessed out of the land of Egypt.
[Edited on 8/15/2008 1:01 AM]
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| Aug 15 @ 1:06 AM |
Exodus...A Neat Story |
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,489
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Sunbabe,
Thank you for the link...just spent over an hour in there.
Found interesting the baths found in the Temole of Karnak to Amus-Ra. They were used to wash so the temple worshiper would be clean...the Jews had a very similiar tradition for washing and bathing, following strict guidelines for clean/unclean. Hades was the name for the latrines, and paradise was where they washed up afterward to return to "clean"
Also saw information to a large volcanic eruption in the early to mid 1600BC. I had beentracking on a volcano named Thera in that period in the Med. The article names it Santorinni...sounds Latin, Thera sounds more Greek...might be related and give info on why a segment of time is missing in the OT history and why there is so little archeological data on the Hyksos with so much written of them.
The last thing of note for me is a massive water event that effected coastline on countries NE on the Med. coast all the way to Isreal. When a wall of volcano Etna collapsed into the sea it created a tsunami that is estimated at 165 feet high that would have traveled at 450 mile/hr. This happened approximately 8000 years ago(6000BC).
This is a major water event and with Thera we have a major brimstone event.
The flood story can hold the first, and Sodom and Gammorah the second.
I notice that S&G is placed in Abrahams time by the Lot nephew link, the destruction of at the level that happened at S&G with no local impacts in Abrams time would not be realistic. I found Egyptian history that tells of the what, when and who of that Abram time event by the angels of the Lord.
Thank you again for the links.
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| Aug 15 @ 1:35 AM |
Exodus...A Neat Story
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,495
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Angel,
The Israelites lived in the wilderness of Sinai for forty years and were fed manna and quail. This forty years was the timeframe that that still dwelt with Moses until he died, for he could not cross the wilderness into Canaan. After Moses died, Joshua and Caleb lead the Israelites into the vast land of Canaan where they first arrived in this land, they found habitation of food and water.
Very good post!
I have a problem with the above statement though. That may be the what the story says, but I find it very hard to believe that 2 million people will live in the desert for 40 years living on only manna and quail just because they were waiting for Moses to die.
Moses wouldn't have told them to continue on without him?
Do you really think that Joshua (based on what the OT tells us of his personality) would strand 2 million people in the desert until Moses died?
These were people that rebeled and fashioned a golden calf to worship against their leaders decrees.
The story is most likely a fable whose message has been lost because people started believing it to be true. If it is true and it took 40 years then something much more that waiting for Moses to die was the reason. If it is a fable, then the symbolism of the 40 year delay must be decoded.
There may be pat answers that can be found, similar to the one you presented, but they should be seen for what they are and that would be "far fetched" at best. Would you have given up 40 years of your life waiting for Moses to die? Would you accepted having to eat only manna and quail for 40 years? It just doesn't make sense.
Peace
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| Aug 15 @ 1:44 AM |
Exodus...A Neat Story |
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,489
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Angel54,
Isn't the reference to Mt Sinai more likely Mt Horeb. I will have to spend some time with Jasher. Jasher has the Lord of the Mountain (the mountain reference in his name I believe is Mt Horeb) giving the laws to Moses and his sister Mariam upset about Moses accepting them. Moses married this man's daughter.
I will not minimize this contradiction to the final selected Hebrew canon. The scribes left the reference to Jasher in the OT so we could find it...no accidents. Exodus has the laws from Yahweh, Jasher has the laws from the Lord of the Mountain. Moses get laws in both books. I will remain neutral until I research more..for me finding the bible verse doesn't trump history...I seek the ground that both can support.
I do not find it reasonable that the Exodus is relating that Moses lived 40 more years in the desert before he died. More likely they were waiting for the birth of a royal heir to pass the mantel of Moses to. Even with wars breaks 40 years in this tiny area becomes silly when we are talking about people extremely knowledgeable about surviving in it. Find the Egyptian name of Aaron, the brother who suddenly appears in the story. Then Moses will clear up, and you can lock down the dates for the Exodus.
Remember the Jews by Jesus time set up the rules of celibates to support the arrival of a male heir in the 40th year of the generation(father's life) to maintain the lines of the patriarch in Genesis. I think we are looking directly at the origin of this part of Jewish temple structure getting formally set for a composite group of Isrealites with many other tribe mixed in. They would have wandered no more than 16 years...the age when a son could assume the rule as king.
Few understand that the Judahites and the Isrealites have different sources and they didn't much care for each other. David united them in his rule becoming king of the Isreal and King of Judah in different years. Even in Jesus's time the distinction was still there with strife, and the Samarians lived between the two groups.
The church approved truth has withheld much history that belongs to us. They were to serve us and instead of teaching us our history, they made an enemy of the Jews, and made up a story that served power. This was not the plan Jesus had in mind, but like so much history, it gets backfit on whatever was written.
I wouldn't have ever expected it had I not found the Roman church's attempt to backfit the Satan they formalized by papal decree in the 500ADs all the way back to the caves of Adam and Eve using myths created by writings of the eastern church.
As Bev say Satan exists in the world...the ideas of him were placed their by the Roman church she dislikes.
This story about the Exodus is rich in information...we just need to take the time to understand this...the size of the desert setting will serve to help us focus on reality in this dimension. 230 miles by 150 miles, an 11 day walk, 22 if you walk 12 hours, 44 days if you walk 6 hours per day, 88 days if 3 hours are walked...268 days if only 1 hour is walked. These are reference points we were left to find on this story, so we can figure out the meaning of the 40.
[Edited on 8/15/2008 1:51 AM]
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| Aug 15 @ 10:37 AM |
Exodus...A Neat Story
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Angel54214
Posts: 13,932
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Sail...I do believe you will find your answers in the book of Numbers of them surviving in the wilderness; the journeys they took to find water and food. They also built the tabernacle and it was covered with badger skins. They made fine linen for the veils. They boiled water for bitter herbs mixed with oil. They had many cattle with them, from oxen, to goats, to sheep etc.
Moses was their leader, I don't suppose the Israelites were "waiting" for him to die, but waiting upon him to lead them into the prosperious land of Canaan. But Numbers is the place to read of all this.
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| Aug 15 @ 12:50 PM |
Exodus...A Neat Story |
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,489
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Angel54,
On the number of men set at 600,000 leaving Egypt, I read recently that the Hebrew word (eleph) needs looking at. It is my understanding it stands for 1000. Do you find anything that might clarify? I've found numbers mean different things depending on what they point to.
For Example, the number for the high priest position was 400 Taw, 200 Resh was the second priest below him, 6 was a student of the temple. Sixty points to a temple position I can't recall at the moment. When I put them together they identify or name the temple structure using a monastic style or organizing. When we add them together we know what the number 666 means to the Jews. We already know what it means to the christian church...they made a monastic style a beast. A second temple style codes out to 616 but I haven't sorted that out yet.
From your reading you have probably noticed there are 4 beasts in revelation. With learning about Jewish meaning for the mark of the beast, we might find our beasts inside the temple. The church, especially after 400 clearly made the Jews the enemy...the writer of Revelations tells us a story about Jewish history. It amazes me that the Calf and the Dragon didn't get used as symbols for scarey creatures/christian boogeymen...people don't scare easy with a cow except maybe a red one.
In a part of the Abram story he has a military force of 318, which was standing for the number of captains in his force, each captain over 1000 men. With this army he won the war of 4 kings against 5.
Can you see why we have a difference? Can it be related to the type of organization of the force...as a band of people wouldn't have structure, and army is structured in battalions etc. led by captains.
Also, I noted that you said they had livestock in the march...likely and reasonable,
but the Exodus story suggests they survived on only the manna and honey.
Is a miracle being inserted here to show a change happening in their diets, that allows a change in dietary law? Moving out to our time this might show what we have today with Jews using different dietary rules based on what we'd call levels of orthodoxy.
[Edited on 8/15/2008 1:50 PM]
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| Aug 15 @ 4:26 PM |
Exodus...A Neat Story
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Angel54214
Posts: 13,932
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I read recently that the Hebrew word (eleph) needs looking at. Eleph was the name of a town given to Benjamin, for which the tribe was named after. This town was included with others like Zelah, and Jebusi which the were in Jeruselem and was given to them for an inheritance. They were also given Gibeath, and Kirjath with their 14 cities.
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| Aug 15 @ 5:00 PM |
Exodus...A Neat Story |
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,489
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Angel54,
Keep lookout for a numeric reference for the word, with each letter haning a value in Hebrew.
Maybe Haban could estimate the neumeric value of these letters...we might not even be spelling it the way the word would be in Hebrew.
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| Aug 16 @ 5:06 PM |
Exodus...A Neat Story
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Angel54214
Posts: 13,932
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Uncrazy....I found your offer of Horeb/Sinai the mountainess glory. Horeb of the the moon god and Sinai of the sun god. Horeb haults in bible scripture when the angel clouds lower God revealed upon touching the top of Sinai. Depending upon where one faces when stands upon the mountainess appalachian, would walk forward in it's terrain. Standing on Sinai facing the wilderness of sinai, they that walked, could see the land Canaan of plenty. Standing on Horeb facing the wilderness of zin, they buried their dead of Midian, was the side that Moses was called. For he fled there after killing an Egyptian.
And the manna (meaning gift), still falls and gathers itself from "Jabal al Lawz" wadies to the Arabian kitchen ovens for their daily bread.
Corrected spelling and added sentance excerps.
[Edited on 8/16/2008 5:41 PM]
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