| Aug 16 @ 8:09 AM |
Paul (Saul) - Who and What was He?
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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The subject of Paul, the who and what he was, is a major undertaking and deserves its own thread.
Based on scriptures and ancient writings, we have more information on Paul than any other figure in Christianity's history. An analysis of who Paul was; his beliefs; his political and religious affiliations; and his relationship with the apostles will provide important relating to the birth of Christianity.
I would like to start with Paul’s who or roots. We can then progress through Paul’s life ultimately arriving at the establishment of Pauline Christianity.
Peace
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| Aug 16 @ 11:27 AM |
Paul (Saul) - Who and What was He? |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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To determine who and what Paul was, we must start with Paul’s heritage.
Ebionites for years have claimed that Paul was not, in the strict Jewish sense, of true Jewish birth. The Ebionites believe that Paul was an Herodian Jew and not a true Jew.
Who are these Ebionites that question Paul’s heritage?
The Ebionites seem to have their roots in Judaism and promote a form of Judaism (Yahwism) that calls for the spreading of Judaism to all gentiles. They believe in the re-establishment of Yahshua ben Yosef (Jesus) as a righteous Jew. They teach social justice based on honesty, and love in the context of the Bible (Torah) and strive to expose of the mythological Christian "Jesus" and the fact that Christianity is anything but a biblically related religion.
What if anything can support the Ebionite claim?
There are several reasons the Ebionites give to substantiate this claim. Paul’s relationship with the Herod family is one of these reasons.
Ebionites hold the opinion that Herod and his family claimed that they were Jewish, but true Jews did not accept these claims. The Herodian lineage had too many foreign elements in it to be considered of true Jewish roots. Herod the Great was the ruling King of Judea prior to Jesus’ ministry who was put into power by the Romans. Herod Antipas succeeded his father in the time of Jesus.
Paul’s relationship to the Herod line is presented in Romans 16:11 where Paul says “Salute Herodion my kinsman [meaning relative]”. In other words Paul used a name that a member of the Herodian family would use when addressing a family member.
Josephus in his work “The Antiquities of the Jews” mentions someone named Saulus in book XX, chapter 9. Josephus presents Saulus as a member of the family of Herod (Antipas) who sided with the High Priest in resisting an uprising by lower order priests over temple funds going to the High Priest. Josephus places this activity of Saulus after the start of Jesus’ ministry but prior to the time Paul converted to christianity (see Antiquities, XX 9.4.).
This places the Saulus of Josephus chronologically at a point in history just prior to Saul’s (Paul) road to Damascus experience. Both Saulus of Josephus and the Saul of Acts were also collaborators of the High Priest (appointed by Herod). Based on this information it is safe to believe that Saulus and Saul is one and the same person. Since Josephus says Saulus was of the family of Herod, this would indicate that Saul-Paul was of the family of Herod.
Paul also states that he has Roman citizenship from birth (see Acts 22:28). Since Paul’s claim was accepted in Acts and Roman citizenship was an honor granted by Rome only to members of Herod’s family or Herod’s closest allies in the Judean region, Saul (Paul) had to have strong ties to the Herod family.
The list of Roman citizens is said to have been kept in Caesar’s office in Rome. This list was not very long and contained military allies and their families to give them special protection from Roman occupational forces. If you were on this list of Roman citizens, you could not tortured or beaten by the Romans.
One of the requirements of obtaining Roman citizenship from birth was that the offspring be given a Roman name. This means Saul had to be given a Roman name from birth and Paul happens to be a Roman name.
So, how did Paul happen to have a Roman birth name if he was truly Jewish? The Ebionites insist that it cannot happen. A true Jewish family would not give their child a Roman name or accept Roman citizenship because that would represent defilement of their own heritage. Paul had to have been born a non-Jew. His parents gave him a Roman name for citizenship purposes, but also named him Saul, which is a Jewish name.
This means that Paul’s parents considered themselves to be Jewish, which fits the definition of a Herodian. That is one who is a non-Jew of Roman citizenship that considers themselves Jewish. In the Judea of that era, only Herodians would have children with both a Roman and Hebrew name (Paul Saul) and Roman citizenship from birth.
Most Christians assume that Jesus changed Saul’s name to Paul in the same way he changed Simon’s to Peter. There, however, is no mention of this in the bible. Luke, in Acts, just starts referring to Saul as Paul, with no explanation for the name change. Also Paul never explains why he uses the name Paul instead of Saul in any of his letters.
The significance the Ebionite charge is that, if true, Paul was being untruthful in his letters. Paul claimed he was born a Jew and circumcised on the eighth day (see Phil. 3:5).
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So was Paul a true Jew or a Herodian Jew as the Ebionites claim?
Peace
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| Aug 16 @ 1:21 PM |
Paul (Saul) - Who and What was He?
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,539
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Sail,
Thank you for posting a place for putting info we find on Paul in a single place.
In the info about the Ebionite claims against the Herods, we see a repeat in the rumors of Jesus not being the legitimate David. Isaac and Esau is a story about legitimate heirs comming to rule...in this case Isaac has a rich progeny, but he really gets beat out, for the line of Esau, held immense power. If we look at the Ebionites line it might be traveling in the Esau side instead of the Isaac side. The Herod line traveled in the House of Judah also.
Bev offered a topic last week for discussion last week, I just saw in Wiki "Ebionites, whom they deemed heretical Judaizers", without the word Ebionites in her topic phrase.
Many Herods had both Jewish names and Herodian names. The Herod's are all over Acts and the four gospels. Antipas and Agrippa I, both Herods are in the trial of Jesus story, but shown as a single Herod. The jewish name for antipas was Lion of Judah. Showing two Herods exposes the political conflicts about the trial, and shifts focus to Pilate who was himself a temple Jew through temple education and initiation even though he would be gentile by birth.
Paul was tutor to the family of Herod Agrippa, teacher to Agrippa ll, who became a celibate Jew and adopted Timothy another Herod son to have an heir to be eligible to rule. This Timothy, beloved of Paul and the man addressed in Paul's epistles was Jewish and Paul attended his Bar Mitzvah when he was accepted into the community and required to follow the Jewish law.
[Edited on 8/16/2008 1:44 PM]
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| Aug 16 @ 1:59 PM |
Paul (Saul) - Who and What was He? |
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,539
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Sail,
In the Domain of Man, Pope offers that Saul derives from the Herodian name Phaseal, and the conversion on the Damascus Road is patterned after the story of Lugalbanda, a Mesopotamian name for a Horus. He also suggests that Paul was Timothy's uncle, explaining a reference in either Acts an epistle to an address to a Herodon, a kinsman. Can't remember which.
If we look in Macabbees, we can find the Jewish temple on the road to Damascus, and who started the temple and resided there.
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| Aug 16 @ 2:11 PM |
Paul (Saul) - Who and What was He?
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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Thanks uncrazy.
I hope that this thread can remain free of preaching and negative comments to those that post here.
I hope that christians will feel free to donate their opinions on the topic but refrain from making claims of truth.
Hopefully this will bring back some of the christian posters that have in the past contributed to some interesting discussion. Some examples would be Katt and Haban. Angel's input as always will hopefully help us to determine who and what this controversial religious figure was.
Those of you that have shied away from posting in R&S are invited to provide any data you feel pertinent in developing a true picture of Paul.
Please refrain from personal attacks. It is expected that a controversial topic like this will cause conflicting views to be posted. They are welcome because knowledge can be gained from many sources. Please state your opinions with respect to the other posters to the thread. We don't have to agree but we can disagree and still show respect to the poster.
Hope to see some serious posts that not only contain biblical accounts but also the accounts of other ancient works.
Peace
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| Aug 16 @ 2:51 PM |
Paul (Saul) - Who and What was He? |
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Angel54214
Posts: 14,074
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To add to the mixture, I see Saul the commander leader in the O.T., for which he was earthly annointed as King by Solomon for the land Gibeah which was alloted to the ancestor father Benjamin. Saul was the son of Kish, who was of the tribe and heir of Benjamin in Judah. Spiritually, Saul was never annointed as a king by God himself, which God was the one to appoint kingship of his spiritual kingdom through domain lands on earth. Saul began to live his journey on the road of righteousness, but chose to die in unrighteousness by his own sword. (Perhaps this is the thorn Saul/Paul in the N.T. speaks of in his letters.
We are interupted in book of Acts with a bit of history of this Saul as the N.T. Saul appears. The O.T. Saul ruled as king 2 years, while in Acts it is said 42 years; possibly in Acts they are in recognision of the 2 Sauls timeline. I just guessing, but see a connection.
Saul/Paul announces his ancestry as from the tribe of Benjamin; born in Tarsus. Tarsus was the capital city of Damascus, it gained it's heredic heir back 9,000 years. It was conquered by the greeks (ancient Romans), from the Parthic line city once was called Parthenia. The Parthic line further back ends at the beginning desendents of Japeth.
In Acts we can see the gathering of royal robes layed at Saul's feet, which follows the Herodic line heirs of government and religious worship by the jews in Jeruselem. Saul/Paul speaks of his kinsman Herodion in Romans as Sail pointed out. As history tells us, Herodion was of the Parthic line and a one chosen of "The Seventy Disciples" by Jesus. He later became a bishop of Parthenia/later named Tarsus.
In Josephus (his name alone adds greek origin of the "us"), we see a whole line as we focus on a Paulus (greek to german origin), for he is not alone in the greek names of origin, Paulus is side by side with a one called Costobarus (2nd husband to Salome I, who was siter to Herod the Great), called Albinus (procurator of Judea), and continues the yet another called Gessius Florus (another procurator of Judea), which I will end this with one who is named Fetus. But we should insert Ananus of the priesthood parthic line.
Saul's name changed to one as Paul right at the time the Jews saught to kill him. It could be understood for his own protection from persecution to change his name before his gentile journeys and upon his appeal at Rome to Caesar.
I see Paul fighting his inheritance of the Benjamin fathered tribe through circumcision covenant with their father Abraham by God, which the prurity Hebrew line grafted in the jewery lines. As we moved forward through the O.T. into the new, there was no jewry pure bloodline (we can look at the babylon, assyrian and persian kingdom captivities here), but only the spiritual purity elect God line (for he seeks out the heart).
Currently am studying on the Ebionites origin roots and the connection to timeline jew conversions with Saul/Paul on the street called straight to Damascus.
Perhaps there still was land that the soles of tribal Benjamin did not step to claim until the N.T. as Saul became blind upon his walk into the Damascus cities.
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| Aug 16 @ 3:02 PM |
Paul (Saul) - Who and What was He?
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,539
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Angel54,
In de-linking from his line from Benjamin, do you find anywhere he picks up a new link or allegiance to another tribe. I ask because Herod Antipas was called a Lion of Judah. I know this throws us back again to the OT.
Paul has that close link with the Agrippa Herods. Was he also shifting between the two Herods, and at the same time between Judaism and the new cult springing from it?
An as usual you have offered us enough information for six months study.
Thank you.
Another question...what tribe do the Ebionites link to? I've seen it, but can't remember where to look for it. The Japeth link is a new research point for me.
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| Aug 16 @ 3:08 PM |
Paul (Saul) - Who and What was He? |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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uncrazy,
If we look in Macabbees, we can find the Jewish temple on the road to Damascus, and who started the temple and resided there.
You have brought up the existence of smaller temples each having High Priests that reported to the Jerusalem Temple's High Priest.
I found this article on Paul and his relationship to Ananias on www.justgivemethetruth.com:Paul and Ananias
Jesus said that true prophets can be distinguished from false prophets by
"their fruits." He mused, "Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of
thistles?" In other words, he told us to check out the story of a so-called
prophet or person of influence. If the story doesn’t add up, then the person
in question should be viewed as a false prophet.
Having stated that, here is some additional information about Paul. Firstly,
Paul was linked—from the moment of his so-called conversion in Damascus—to
one of the same high-priests who had Jesus killed. The man’s name was
"Ananias" (Acts 9:10, King James). It was Ananias who restored Saul's sight
after being blinded during his so-called vision of Jesus at Damascus.
The Bible states that Ananias [complained to the Lord that Paul] had "authority
from the chiefs to bind all that call on thy name" (Acts 9:14). [So Ananias was
apparently quite familiar with the hierarchy of the high priests and the Sanhedrin
Ananias may have been somewhat influential himself.] Possibly a former high priest.
Ananias [may have been] one of the high priests in the Sanhedrin who questioned
Jesus before his execution. In the King James Version of the Bible, this man's
name is spelled "Annas." He was the father-in-law of Joseph Caiaphais, the high
priest who decreed that Jesus must die (John 11:49-51). In fact, Jesus was
first questioned by Annas after being arrested by the Sanhedrin guards. Annas
turned Jesus over to Caiaphas who turned him over to Pilate for crucifixion.
The English translations of Antiquities, by Josephus, identifies "Ananus" as a
high-priest appointed to head the Sanhedrin a few years before Caiaphas (ref.
Josephus, Antiquities, Book 18, Chapter 2). In John 18:13, it states that Annas
(Ananus) was the father-in-law of Joseph Caiaphas.
So we know that Ananus and Annas were the same person, but different authors or
translators spelled their names differently (in Antiquities versus John). So it
seems highly plausible that the person known as Ananias (from Acts 9, Saul's
pal) is also Ananus/Annas.
It is highly suspicious that the same high priest who was deeply involved in the murder of Jesus was also linked to Paul’s conversion to Christianity.(More than likely his co-conspirator to help Paul with his fake vision lies)
Secondly, Paul’s teachings are much different from those of Jesus. Jesus
taught people how to live their lives in a manner that would please God. In
addition, he said in no uncertain terms that those who practice Pharisaic
teachings would not escape hell. He called them the children of the Devil. Paul
WAS a Pharisee. In addition, Paul focused on the meaning of the resurrection
in an obsessive manner that left most of Jesus’s teaching forgotten—particularly the damnation of the Pharisees and their followers.
Thirdly, Paul never attempted to atone for his life as a Pharisee or his
association with one of the high priests involved in the murder of Jesus. In
fact, he boasted of his status as a Pharisee. It should be regarded as
blasphemy that an active Pharisee would spread Christianity and [may have
been] aided in [his] efforts by one of Jesus’s murderers, high-priest Ananus.
Jesus said of false prophets, "Ye shall know them by their fruits." I can see
nothing but rotten fruit produced from Paul. What is your take on Ananias (alias Ananus/Annas) as being a High Priest involved in the arrest and trial of Jesus? How about Paul's relationship with Ananias?
Peace.
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| Aug 16 @ 3:25 PM |
Paul (Saul) - Who and What was He?
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Angel54214
Posts: 14,074
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In de-linking from his line from Benjamin, do you find anywhere he picks up a new link or allegiance to another tribe. I ask because Herod Antipas was called a Lion of Judah. I know this throws us back again to the OT.
If my memory serves me correctly, Judah was the strength tribe of all the12 tribes origin as Israel before it separated itself and consisted of the tribe Benjamin and Simeon. Judah was named from the 4th son of Jacob. When Judah broke away from Israel, it remained the lion dominance kingdom bringing Benjamin and Simeon under jurisdiction tribes, which they were given inheritance territorial lands out of Judah. We can se this in the book of Joshua.
We can seek Judah the lion back in Genesis of the "first tribe" discription by God..."Judah is a lion's whelp; From the prey, my son, you have gone up. He couches, he lies down as a lion, And as a lion, who dares rouse him up?"
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| Aug 16 @ 3:39 PM |
Paul (Saul) - Who and What was He? |
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,539
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Sail,
The priest named Annas, were famed for the long rule of the father and the rules of his 5 known sons.
The 5 sons would have each had a sirname that would distinguish tem from each other, one was named Matthias Annus who would place after the crucifixion drama...notice the similarity to the name Matthew.
I think the Ananias and Annus names are interchangeable. Paul was a voting member of the Sanhedrin..I wonder which Annus brother sent him to Damascus.
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| Aug 16 @ 3:40 PM |
Paul (Saul) - Who and What was He?
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Angel54214
Posts: 14,074
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What is your take on Ananias (alias Ananus/Annas) as being a High Priest involved in the arrest and trial of Jesus? How about Paul's relationship with Ananias?
We can research further, but looking at wiki...
Annas (also Ananus), son of Seth, was a Jewish High Priest from AD 6 to 15 and remained an influential leader afterwards.
Annas was appointed High Priest in AD 6 by the Roman legate Quirinius just after the Romans had deposed Archelaus, Ethnarch of Judaea, thereby putting Judaea directly under Roman rule as part of Iudaea Province. Annas served in the office for ten years, until the procurator Gratus dismissed him in AD 15.
After that, Annas saw several members of his family succeed him as High Priests:
Eleazar ben Ananus (16–17)
Joseph Caiaphas (18–36), who had married the daughter of Annas (John 18:13)
Jonathan ben Ananus (36–37 and 44)
Theophilus ben Ananus (37–41)
Matthias ben Ananus (43)
Ananus ben Ananus (63)
Josephus comments on this situation:
"It is said that the elder Ananus was extremely fortunate. For he had five sons, all of whom, after he himself had previously enjoyed the office for a very long period, became high priests of God - a thing that had never happened to any other of our high priests." (Jewish Antiquities XX, 9.1)
References in the Mosaic Law to "the death of the high priest" (Num 35:25, 28) suggest that the high-priesthood was ordinarily held for life. Perhaps for this reason, Annas was still called "high priest" even after his dismissal, along with Caiaphas (Luke 3:2). He also may have been acting as president of the Sanhedrin, or a coadjutor of the high priest.
According to the Gospel of John (the event is not mentioned in other accounts), Jesus was first brought before Jonathan Ananus, and after a brief questioning of him (John 18:19-23) was sent to Caiaphas, where some members of the Sanhedrin had met, and the first trial of Jesus took place (Matt. 26:57-68).
After Pentecost, he presided over the Sanhedrin before which the Apostles Peter and John were brought (Acts 4:6).
Acts 4:6
6 And Annas the high priest, and Caiaphas, and John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the kindred of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem.
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| Aug 17 @ 2:52 AM |
Paul (Saul) - Who and What was He? |
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uncrazy
Posts: 1,539
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Angel54,
Who were the John and Alexander spoken of in Acts?
Sail,
Found a reference in Laurence Gardner's work on Magdalene on Ebionites from Ireaneus, bishop of Lyons who was born in 120AD. This is an early church father who had great influence on the direction the church was taking. He is the man I earlier noted that if christians today read his writings, they would call him guilty of blasphemy and heresy. He actually commits a vile sin from the point of their beliefs about Jesus. It points clearly that this man was teaching something else than what Jesus said...he declared Jesus was mistaken and practicing the wrong religion.
Thank goodness Iraneus was there to set the stage for what we now have today.
Anyway on the reference from Gardner on page 135, Gardner quotes Iraneus writing on the Nazarenes, who he named as Ebionites "They, like Jesus himself, as well as the Essenes and Zadokites of the two centuries before, expound upon the prophetic books of the Old Testament. They reject the Pauline epistles, and reject the apostle Paul, calling him an apostate of the Law".
Here finally we have located a bishop of the Roman faction of the Jewish cult telling us that even Jesus rejected Pauls writings and Paul himself. It is easy for christian to quote Iraneus as a source of truth about the inspired word, until we read this.
Amazing that todays christians hold Paul so sacred when the most rigid followers of Jewish law, the Essenes, and the priests in the line of John the Baptist, and Jesus himself reject Paul and his work as not in line with the Nazarene sect led by Jesus. Is it any wonder they rely so heavily on the idea of inerrant truth and God inspired?
The ministers and clergy/seminarians I would have thought would know this but they remain silent except to call us doomed for twisting the holy words. I pray they may begin to be of service in sharing fruits of their educations with us.
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| Aug 17 @ 10:18 AM |
Paul (Saul) - Who and What was He?
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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Here finally we have located a bishop of the Roman faction of the Jewish cult telling us that even Jesus rejected Pauls writings and Paul himself. It is easy for christian to quote Iraneus as a source of truth about the inspired word, until we read this. This brings up the big question. What was Paul's rationale and motive in his creation of his own religion?
Paul obviously didn't hold early christian doctrine to heart. He was the number one christian persecuter of the time.
Paul was considered a Pharisee so why would he suddenly change his strong Jewish beliefs? There already existed Jewish sects that were altering their doctrines; accepting and recruiting Gentiles in the process.
Could Paul have been carrying out a plan of the Pharisees to convert early christians to one of the new Jewish sects that were already existent. The plan would be perfect since it would stop the spread of Jesus' true teachings while expanding the new Jewish cult recruiting efforts.
Is christianity of today really a Jewish sect that used Jesus' popularity to sell their own dogma?
Think about it!
This approach would:
1) Help stop the spread of the doctrines of Jesus which attacked the Pharisee concept of religion.
2) Aid in recruiting people to this new Jewish religious sect, including gentiles.
3) Create a hoax that the old Jewish sects were responsible for the execution of the Messiah.
So in one sweep true christianity would be wiped out; the new jewish sect would grow faster; and opposition to the old Jewish sects would escalate.
Seems like the perfect plan.
So could Paul have just been promoting a new Jewish sect under the guise of christianity?
Peace
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| Aug 17 @ 3:19 PM |
Paul (Saul) - Who and What was He? |
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Angel54214
Posts: 14,074
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Who were the John and Alexander spoken of in Acts? Uncrazy...for timeline and biblical discription purposes, lets start with the location and the current event. In Acts 4, we are told of the 5,000 in Jeruselem that came from all over for this special pentacostal event; the speaking of tongues, receiving the Holy Spirit, etc. When this event ended they left Jeruselem to back to their own lands. At this point the the total high Jewish council of the sanhedrim, were gathering into Jeruselem due to this event and the conversions being made through baptism by the Apostles of these 5,000.
Upon the gathering of Sanhedrim Jewish council, which were 71 members in their seats. They consisted of the Jewish priests, elders, rulers and scribes of both Pharisees and Saducees schools. These 71 members did not all live in Jeruselem. Which now brings us back in history of Alexander the Great and his conquest of the Persian Empire. This "name" is hold utmost importance in Acts 4. (notice I said name, not person).
Uncrazy...now that we have the focal point in view, we can move on to your question.
JOHN:
The name John is English as you probably already know. The name John also falls within the name Johnathan. But in hebrew it is spelled differently as vowels were added and the letter "J" was in hebrew usage as "Y". This "John" in Acts 4 is non other that the Jewish Rabbi "Yochanan ben Zaccai (also spelt Zakai)." Rabbi of the 2nd Jewish Temple. I don't need to be lengthy here on Rabbi Yochanan, for there's much annals written of him and he lived to be 120 years old; survivor during the Jewish-Roman revolt. Rabbi Yochanan was an elder member of the Sanhedrim Council; a student of the Hillel Pharisee school. Rabbi Yochanan was in strong resistance of the Saducees for their teachings. I will end this here on the Rabbi identification for your own outside/inside research interests.
ALEXANDER:
Through the conquests land by Alexander the Great, this name became well known throughout Mesopotamia region. Through his siege of the Persian Empire, the Jewish in exile were released to their home lands. Upon their release, Alexander made a decree with the Jews that of a first born son would carry his sirname. We can walk through the Jewish history and see the Alexanders. The Alexander in Acts 4 is non other than Alexander Lysimachus, which can be read about in many history annuals as well. (I will use A.L. in continuance). A.L. was the Alabarch (governor) of the Jews in Alexandria Egypt. A.L. held other occupance. A.L. was not only governor there, but was a very rich man. He supplied the Jeruselem temple gates of the gold and silver. A.L. is one of those rulers in Acts 4:5. Some annals speak of Flaccus Philo, who was governor of Egypt and brother to an Alexander Alabarcha; a family line of priests. Being the same person, I do not know from the wide scope of annals. If A.L. was Priest/Governor dual occupance, he would fill the "rulers" as well well as "priests" Sanhedrim Council seat(s).
Uncrazy, as I know you are careful and thorough in your research as like I am  , this information will find worthy to the 2nd temple sage. And you know where to find me for any further "quest"ions. 
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| Aug 17 @ 6:43 PM |
Paul (Saul) - Who and What was He?
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Angel54214
Posts: 14,074
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While I ponder the history books of wealthy information at hand, understanding the Roman Empire expansion can bring Saul/Paul into harmony play here. Him being a Roman citizen by birth (free born), which his parents resided in Tarsus of Cilicia, maybe even his grandparents lived there. Tarsus/Cilicia falls in the compass wheel needle pointing westward within Cilicia. During J. Caesar's Cilicia campagnes, the west remained "independant" until Vespasian joined the territorial providences of Cilicia in 74 B.C.E. So Tarsus was a free independant city within the independant state western providence Cilicia.
In the Roman Empire at that time, families claiming governed citizenship was was by either military service or community service. Saul/Paul's occupancy was tent making. He most likely when older, proved his citizenship by deed through his craft trade. Lots of military tents were needed in the Roman Empire legions for the campagne conquering. Jews becoming under citizenship gradually as providence territories were added, most likely signed a proclamation, such as the Lex Lulia. or a new proclamation created by Mark Anthony. (I do not know without researching).
What I do witness biblically in the book of Acts, Saul/Paul very poorly used his asset free born Roman citizenship spiratically as he saw fit to use during a very dangerous situation at Jeruselem upon his 2nd return there. He is taken captive and is beatened for his teachings by his jewish protocal. He caused such an uproar upon himself, that he almost was killed by the Roman government. Seems Saul/Paul feared the Jews more than the Romans while he presents his coversion enlightment. Then he opens his mouth and wishes to appeal to Ceasar in Rome and caused a vast Roman army legion to transport him there. But as the biblical scripture message goes, it was God's will that he leave the Jews and go unto the Gentiles to spread the God Kingdom word. (But I don't want to get into the spiritual aspects at this time, so I limit it in wording).
If we do happed to read Acts 13, we can see the revealing of the Saul/Paul names and the surrounding scriptures that proclaim the change. What I find in dabbling there is, Saul who is also called Paul; which is not unusual duality name in Mesopotamia. From his history that I have read outside the scriptures, Saul was his Jewish name and Paul was Roman Gentile name. They all had 2 names back then, some even more so.
In Acts 13 construction here, we see is where Saul of the O.T. is brought in as I mentioned in an earlier posting. We also see Saul and Barnabas heading to Cyprus, which the story entails the sorcerer Barjesus/Elymas there that "Paul" condemns him and then becomes blind. This sorcerer was with a certain deputy there. The name of him is not mentioned because this person's name is "Sergius Paulus." Right at this point Saul/Paul begins using his gentile name Paul. And this Sergious Paulus was the proconsul of Cyprus in 1 A.D. And through Paul's acts upon the sorcerer caused belief and conversion of Sergious Paulus. So was the beginning of Paul's gentile mission that was delivered to him by God in Jeruselem.
On an end note; It was most common in 1 A.D. as one to have a duality name in Galillee; a name in Israel and then a name in Judah. Paul being of Jewish descent from his parents and from his ancestry fathers of the tribe of Benjamin of his proudness he carries into the gentile world in his letters, but denounces the name "Saul" and leaves it behind to the memory of the first King of Israel that died in unrighteousness and leaves the name Saul as a reminder of his own unrighteousness of persecutions he committed. We see Paul struggling through this all through his letters.
He is now transformed, forgiven, baptized by the Holy Spirit and a believer which he is given heir to the spiritual afterlife Kingdom.
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| Aug 18 @ 6:38 AM |
Paul (Saul) - Who and What was He? |
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bevrice
Posts: 11,144
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Yes, angel, you cleared up the citizenship of Paul very well, and his conversion, thank you.
Now, I have one question for un, how could anyone know that Jesus disagreed with Paul's writings? Jesus was not here when Paul began his service. He only appeared to Paul.
Paul worked in conjunction with the other disciples, now I only remember one disagreement and that was between Paul and Peter. Paul was accepted by the other disciples, as were his teachings.
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| Aug 18 @ 7:02 AM |
Paul (Saul) - Who and What was He?
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bevrice
Posts: 11,144
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Un, I see no reference to Herod Antipas being called a lion of judah.
http://newsinfo.iu.edu/OCM/packages/bethstar.html
"Astrologers associated Jupiter with the birth of kings and Venus with fertility. The meeting of Jupiter and Venus took place in the constellation Leo the Lion, which the Old Testament of the Bible specifically associated with the Jewish people. And it happened near the brightest star in Leo, Regulus, most closely identified with kingship.
There has not been a brighter, closer conjunction of Venus and Jupiter in Leo so near to Regulus in the 2,000 years before or since."
This is the star the wise men followed, this is how they knew that Jesus was born. This was the star denoting the birth of a king, and the Lion of Judah, the Jewish Messiah.
Guys, this in itself, a scientific fact, astronomy, gives revelance that Jesus was born and did exist.
Now, logically, Jesus was born under this configuration of the stars, and since this configuration hasn't happened for 2,000 years before or since, how could Herod be a "lion of judah" ? He would have had to have been at least two thousand years old.
Jesus is the Lion of Judah.
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| Aug 18 @ 7:54 AM |
Paul (Saul) - Who and What was He? |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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Now, I have one question for un, how could anyone know that Jesus disagreed with Paul's writings? Jesus was not here when Paul began his service. He only appeared to Paul. Good question!
Someday we may have the answer to it.
Hope that you have open mind to accept what is found.
Peace
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| Aug 18 @ 8:03 AM |
Paul (Saul) - Who and What was He?
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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Guys, this in itself, a scientific fact, astronomy, gives revelance that Jesus was born and did exist. 
You can't let even one thread go without preaching your sick dogma!
The topic is Paul/Saul. What did your last post have to do with the topic at hand?
This thread has been progressing well without conflicts. If you wish to read about Paul, or post your knowledge of Paul, fine. Otherwise stop your nonsense!
Please refrain from preaching in this thread and try to keep on topic.
Peace
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| Aug 18 @ 9:03 AM |
Paul (Saul) - Who and What was He? |
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bevrice
Posts: 11,144
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Sail, for starters, I was replying to un's calling Herod the lion of judah. You fail to read the posts, I guess. Maybe it is selective reading that you practice.
Now, do you want to tell us how Paul's teachings disagreed with those of Jesus?
Also, do you want to explain how Paul the disciples agreed or disagreed?
Preaching?  I was simply referring to you guys constantly averring that there is no proof that Jesus existed.
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