| Sep 13, 2008 @ 1:37 PM |
Historical Jesus
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,291
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We have to keep in mind, and never lose sight of the fact that the historical "Jesus" was culturally a product of the ancient Near East, and in an area under Roman sovereignty. "Christ" was a product of the people and times that came after him: Most notably Pauline thought, as well as a Greek influence.
The parables and stories of the historical Jesus were the product of a first century Jewish "rabbi-sage-cynic" from Galilee who had an enormous influence on a handful of people around him.
We will refer to the historical figure as "Jesus" from now on and the person of mythology as being the "Christ" of our modern religion.
Christianity, in its simplest terms, is the result of previous centuries of Jewish and Greek myth and conjecture. It's about the coming of a "Messiah," and revolves around the resurrection.
The teachings of Jesus were altered to fit the legend but definitely took a secondary role.
We all know that the gospels were composed many years after the death of not only Jesus, but even of most of the people who knew him directly. Not only were these Gospels displaced in time, but were also displaced culturally. Since Greek speaking Christians composed them, even further meaning was lost in translation from the Aramaic.
There are now two main, and disparate, schools of thought about the origin of Christianity.
The first, and mistaken belief is that Jesus himself, as well as his teachings, was the founder.
The other is that the Christ or "Anointed One" of the Resurrection, (Shaped by Pauline thought) is the bases of this religion.
This may seem to be a small distinction upon first inspection, but in the end a very crucial one.
If it is based on the teachings, and more importantly, the example of Jesus, then his words take on enormous significance. If, on the other hand, the "Resurrection" and "Pauline thought" is taken as the bases for Christianity, then it is based on the ideas and beliefs of the people who came after him!
Remember a very important fact! Jesus never personally claimed to be conducting his ministry to "erase man's sins," just as he never claimed to be Divine himself. Jesus constantly referred to himself as the "son of God,"-- just as we all are!
The early Christian gospels are not historical biographies of Christ and do not really give us insight into the life of Jesus.
These gospels proclaim a message about Jesus and express a significance that the early Christians found in Jesus.
They are written in a way that appeals to historical truth, but they are not history in any actual sense.
The gospels expressed what people experienced about Jesus in the context of the first century Near East. This experience was taken as a "revelation" of the Divine, and they tell us what the early Christians actually believed about Jesus!
Until the recent deciphering of the Gospel of Thomas and the discovery of the "Q" sayings, this knowledge of Christ was the only bases we had to explore the historical Jesus. As a result, it was very difficult to differentiate between the actual words of Jesus and the words his followers (Christians) attribute to him. Fortunately, this is changing.
It must be noted that "Q" (German for Quelle, or source) has only recently been deciphered from the first three gospels by comparing them side by side. In this comparison, there were many divergent views and stories, but scholars also found a commonality within them that made no mention of the miracles of Christ. Rather they pointed to the striped down sayings and parables that were probably the "authentic words of Jesus."
Since the first gospel, Mark, was not written until thirty-five or forty years or so after the death of Jesus, (Well over a generation later!) we have to remember that early Christian preachers told stories about Jesus in order to convey the significance they saw in him.
In explaining his parables and stories, it was necessary to paraphrase them and even add to them by way of clarification.
The early Christians did not distinguish between the actual Jesus and the Christ of their religion. They also did not distinguish between the sayings of the earthly Jesus and the explanations and interpretations of Christ's sayings given by their leaders.
Here we have a case where the actual sayings of the earthly Jesus, (Q) were mixed with Christian interpretations of his words.
Then, various popular sayings and words of wisdom of the time, and the purported words of the risen "Christ" were all collected in a primary work which started out with the synoptic gospels of Mark, then Matthew and Luke. After these three gospels, things took an even sharper turn and went in the direction of our modern version of Christianity with the apocalyptic works of John.
The authors of the gospels were actually anonymous, but for convenience sake, we use the traditional names of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John. The first gospel - Mark, is loosely based on the first three or four decades of oral tradition plus "Q," and the "Gospel of Thomas," which was passed down to the author(s)
The first gospels were written largely in an attempt to provide some standard collection of the stories circulating about Jesus. All, that is, with the exception of the Gospel of John, which is apocalyptic and more concerned with making a theological statement. These gospels were not immediately recognized as authority. As late as 96 A.D. Clement, the Bishop of Rome proclaimed the on
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| Sep 13, 2008 @ 1:42 PM |
Historical Jesus |
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,291
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proclaimed the only authoritative texts of Christianity to be the Old Testament and the various sayings attributed to Jesus then in circulation. The Gospels did not appear in Christian writings until around 135 AD.
The same lack of authoritarian certification can be said of the Gospel of Thomas, which might well be the most informative discovery about Christian origins in modern history.
The Gospel was often mentioned in early Christian literature, but no copy was thought to have survived until the discovery of a Coptic manuscript in 1945 at Nag Hammadi in Egypt.
Portions of Greek versions of the Gospel of Thomas were found in Oxyrhynchus Egypt about one hundred years ago and these can be dated to about 140 C.E. or somewhat before. A complete version in Coptic (the native Egyptian language written in an alphabet derived from the Greek alphabet) as we mentioned, was found in Nag Hammadi Egypt in 1945. That version can be dated to about 340 C.E. The Coptic version is a translation of the Greek version.
Thus most, if not all, of the Gospel of Thomas was written prior to 100 C.E. Thomas is a pure sayings gospel; that is, it consists only of a collection of the sayings of Jesus without any extended narrative or explanation.
While Thomas is not Q, its discovery proves the theory that such collections existed in the early days of Christianity. The discovery of Thomas as part of a Gnostic library has led many to believe it a Gnostic creation. However, very little of it would have been considered unorthodox to the early church. What little questionable material can be found is probably a later addition.
Thomas does represent a Jewish "Wisdom" philosophy that was embraced by Jesus and the Gnostics. - "That the kingdom of God is not something we must await for - but is in fact already here, if only we can become spiritual enough to see it".
One of these documents found at Nag Hammadi begins with a note in the margin, "The Gospel According to Thomas." The first sentence of that document says, "These are the secret words which the living Jesus taught and which Judas Thomas Didymos wrote down." Then they start over 110 sayings, each introduced with "and Jesus said."
Now this is very reveling since some of those sayings have parallels with the gospels of Mark, Matthew and Luke, -- and some not.
However, we can state that sayings or parables that are repeated two or more times in any of the early Gospels have a much higher chance of being an actual utterance by the historical Jesus.
These sayings may go back to a very early period of Christianity; some of them may have been added later. The document itself comes from the fourth century and as with all gospel text, we have to remember that these texts were fluid. Remember, scribes could add, could leave things out, or could add comments and even their own interpretations. They not only could, but also did!
We cannot, reconstruct with certainty, what the Gospel of Thomas looked like around the year 100 or earlier. It is very likely that it existed at that time or before, and that a good deal of the material that's now in that manuscript was already in a Greek manuscript that dates back to the first century.
Now what is typical about these sayings is that in each instance, they tell us that if you want to understand what Jesus said, you have to first recognize yourself. You have to know yourself, know who you are. It begins with a saying about the Kingdom of God, which is probably one of the most important, and reveling proclamations.
"If you seek the Kingdom of God in the sky then the birds will precede you, and if you seek it in the sea, then the fish will precede you, but the Kingdom is in you, and if you know yourself, then you know the Kingdom of the Father."
"However, if you do not know yourself, you live in poverty, not knowledge!"
To know yourself is the knowledge of our Divine origin -- the fact that we have come from the Kingdom of the Father.
What does it mean really to know oneself? To know is to have insight into one's own ultimate Divine identity.
"Know yourself" is a very old Greek maxim... That is, you have to know that your own soul is Divine, and then you know that you are immortal. Whereas, the body is the mortal part of human existence.
Now this is radicalized in the Gospel of Thomas into saying that everything that is experienced physically and through sense perception, everything in the world that you can perceive in this way is nothing. It is, at best, chaos and, at worst, it does not even exist in reality.
The only thing that really exists is your Divine spirit or your Divine soul, which is identical in its quality with God.
How interesting that Buddhism, Taoism, Zen and many other belief systems along with what was said above all point inward for the answers, not reading and spouting endless quotes by an unknown author as the true path.
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| Sep 13, 2008 @ 1:47 PM |
Historical Jesus
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ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 7,441
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"We will refer to the historical figure as "Jesus" from now on and the person of mythology as being the "Christ" of our modern religion."
 No WE won't. You might. But WE won't do any such thing.
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| Sep 13, 2008 @ 1:53 PM |
Historical Jesus |
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,291
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Sigh yes we know you would not know truth nor accept it even if you understood what truth really means. Truth does not mean a person lost in revelry about a mythical something that does not have any basis in fact, only fiction. Go read Pauline, get a grip or at least an education.
"Jesus" was culturally a product of the ancient Near East, and in an area under Roman sovereignty. "Christ" was a product of the people and times that came after him: Most notably Pauline thought, as well as a Greek influence. Read it and weep  no more my son.....
There was a something that was nothing, and a nothing that was something.
Jesus a philosopher and Christ a messiah conceived by mortal man. Never the two will meet nor embody themselves as a one thing except in mythology.
[Edited on 9/13/2008 2:23 PM]
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| Sep 13, 2008 @ 3:36 PM |
Historical Jesus
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jamminjerry
Posts: 4,085
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thanks dude. by the way, is "the gospel according to Thomas" in english print? e be jammin 
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| Sep 13, 2008 @ 3:41 PM |
Historical Jesus |
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16knots
Posts: 3,627
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"We will refer to the historical figure as "Jesus" from now on and the person of mythology as being the "Christ" of our modern religion."
Excellent~!!!!!
I knew a Jesus at work once. Plenty of them about for sure.
Never met a Christ though. Must be mythological.
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| Sep 13, 2008 @ 4:04 PM |
Historical Jesus
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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Yash
Awesome post 
SOC
 I bet you couldn't even read the whole post let alone understand it.
JJ
Perhaps this might help...
http://users.misericordia.edu//davies/thomas/Trans.htm
Take note of #108
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| Sep 13, 2008 @ 5:18 PM |
Historical Jesus |
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,291
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZ0373FD5f4
For SOC Holy Ghost terrifying people in Church. 
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| Sep 13, 2008 @ 5:27 PM |
Historical Jesus
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,291
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 Where are all the Christians?
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| Sep 13, 2008 @ 6:06 PM |
Historical Jesus |
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16knots
Posts: 3,627
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Hiding behind their weak dogma as usual. What else. Nothing substantial in logic or argument. 
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| Sep 13, 2008 @ 6:23 PM |
Historical Jesus
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ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 7,441
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The other Christians probably have more sense than me.
They probably know what they know and have enough sense to stay out of threads like this.
As difficult to believe as this seems to be; not many here, (besides a few of us), are willing to rise to the bait of hammertime, sail_dancer, 16knots, or yourself.
Most of the other Christians probably read the posts by your little group and then shake their heads. They probably have the good sense to avoid the little traps you guys set for anyone who disagrees with you.
Matthew 10:16--"I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves."
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| Sep 13, 2008 @ 6:31 PM |
Historical Jesus |
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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Yash
For once post a link the right way huh?? 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZ0373FD5f4
SOC
How small in mind can you make for yourself? Its like living in a box with no windows. You really haven't got a clue about anything regarding the history of Christianity or pretty much anything else for that matter. For once in your life pick up a book that is not written for children.
The actual fact is there is NO witness that wrote anything about Jesus. Go find an author who did. See what you come up with.
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| Sep 13, 2008 @ 6:34 PM |
Historical Jesus
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ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 7,441
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okay 
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| Sep 13, 2008 @ 6:45 PM |
Historical Jesus |
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16knots
Posts: 3,627
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It appears that if a religious discourse can not hold to its truths it needs to be exposed and trashed. What use is it????
If Christians are to weak in their knowledge's and realisation's of the truth then it would be time to re-evaluate their belief systems.
The Absolute truth withstands any scrutiny and has nothing to FEAR!
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| Sep 13, 2008 @ 7:14 PM |
Historical Jesus
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sail_dancer
Posts: 9,866
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SOC,
As difficult to believe as this seems to be; not many here, (besides a few of us), are willing to rise to the bait of hammertime, sail_dancer, 16knots, or yourself. You have to be kidding!
Just because a person posts their beliefs and those beliefs do not agree with yours, you consider it as baiting christians? 
If that is the case every post you and your croonies (those that sign your same song) about christianity are done to bait non-christians. If anything, it fits christians more because christians are trying to convert people to their sick and harmful dogma. 
I give a sh*t whether you agree with my beliefs. I'm not here to convert anyone to anything. I am here to give people that are searching information that is important for them to know.
All christians have to do is make a valid case for their dogma to be true. I have been posting to R&S for 3 years now and not one christian member has even come close to validating what their dogma teaches. They can't even explain why the christian bible actually contradicts the teachings of christian dogma.
Most of the other Christians probably read the posts by your little group and then shake their heads. And they may be shaking their heads while saying to themselves .... "I didn't know that" or "I never look at it that way before" or "that makes more sense than what we were taught".
That is what scares you and your cult mates. People thinking with open minds are the biggest threat to christianity and more and more people are questioning christianity's true worth.
Peace
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| Sep 13, 2008 @ 7:39 PM |
Historical Jesus |
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Aeromuse
Posts: 3,979
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I keep misreading the thread title as "Hysterical Jesus"
Just thought I'd share 
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| Sep 13, 2008 @ 8:02 PM |
Historical Jesus
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BandTMom
Posts: 38,063
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I'm sure he is sometimes. 
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| Sep 13, 2008 @ 8:12 PM |
Historical Jesus |
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Aeromuse
Posts: 3,979
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If he ever peruses this forum I've no doubt
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| Sep 13, 2008 @ 8:14 PM |
Historical Jesus
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16knots
Posts: 3,627
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Ask bev, she will know.
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| Sep 13, 2008 @ 8:26 PM |
Historical Jesus |
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BandTMom
Posts: 38,063
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But will she tell us the truth?
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