| Sep 20, 2008 @ 10:48 AM |
Why do sexual matters seem to upset the Christian community so much?
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Thor1960303
Posts: 3,345
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After reading SoC's post about America being on "thin ice" due to it's lack of morality, I had to ponder a few things.
It seems to me if God was as vengeful on moral issues as the Christians make him out to be, there was ample opportunity back in the day when moral violations were far worse in my opinion, to execute judgement.
How about when the Native American was being ousted from his home? What about when the first African slaves were being loaded on ships and brought over to the New World to serve the new nation "concieved in liberty".? I guess liberty only applied to white Christians.
Someone please explain to me why homosexuality is a worse sin than forcing people into internment camps because they're the same nationality as the country's enemy. Someone show me in the Bible where a couple living together without marriage is worse than genocide. Also, regardless of what you may think of abortion, how is that worse than raping,pillaging and murdering people and taking their land from them? 
It seems that Christians only care about morality when it applies to sex, at least that's the morality they're most vocal about. Their silence on other moral matters is deafening. What does that say about the religion?
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| Sep 20, 2008 @ 11:41 AM |
Why do sexual matters seem to upset the Christian community so much? |
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waterfire
Posts: 2,946
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Good question but I am sure there were lots of Christians that were against slavery, interment camps, etc. I think one of the reasons they get upset is the Bible mentions something about homosexuals (man laying with man?) and it not being accepted by god, well at least that is how it is interpreted.
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| Sep 20, 2008 @ 11:50 AM |
Why do sexual matters seem to upset the Christian community so much?
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bevrice
Posts: 11,141
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Amen, waterfire, you got it.
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| Sep 20, 2008 @ 11:50 AM |
Why do sexual matters seem to upset the Christian community so much? |
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,270
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The reason it is even mentioned is that the Roman legions marched with a full compliment of women and small boys behind them. Small boys who were assistants to officers were regularly used as boy toys by the Legions.
This is true and documented.
Although the hierarchy found within Judaism and the Church of those times thought small boys were fair game also. And it continues to this day within the Catholic church and Fundamentalist perverted Christian leaders as well that is well documented by the news.
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| Sep 20, 2008 @ 11:52 AM |
Why do sexual matters seem to upset the Christian community so much?
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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The reason it is even mentioned is that the Roman legions marched with a full compliment of women and small boys behind them. Small boys who were assistants to officers were regularly used as boy toys by the Legions.
This is true and documented. Jesus blesses a Centurion and his male-servant. Given this was common knowledge, Jesus himself would have known it. Of course, Jesus has a naked boy sleeping over night with him too. Strange people...
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| Sep 20, 2008 @ 11:52 AM |
Why do sexual matters seem to upset the Christian community so much? |
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16knots
Posts: 3,627
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The Bible is the Word of God to a Christian therefore they will not say the Bible speaks crap!
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| Sep 20, 2008 @ 11:53 AM |
Why do sexual matters seem to upset the Christian community so much?
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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Although the hierarchy found within Judaism and the Church of those times thought small boys were fair game also 3 years + 1 day is written in the Babylonian Talmud. They start them young.
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| Sep 20, 2008 @ 11:56 AM |
Why do sexual matters seem to upset the Christian community so much? |
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,270
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Christianity and homosexuality: are they compatible?
It concludes that yes they are provides links to prove so. 
Christianity and Homos 
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| Sep 20, 2008 @ 7:03 PM |
Why do sexual matters seem to upset the Christian community so much?
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Thor1960303
Posts: 3,345
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am sure there were lots of Christians that were against slavery, interment camps, etc.
True, the abolishonist movement was started by a church I believe, however, I only know of a few churches and Christian groups who actively spoke out. I remember the black churches and "liberal, heathen, yakee churches" that spoke out against segregation back in the early 60's. However, there were just as many, if not more Christians that supported those things. The belief that slavery was a chance to get the gospel to the "heathens" from Africa justified slavery to many Christians (as well as the fact that the Bible does NOT condemn slavery), and the right wing, flag wavers were in favor of the internment camps (don't be surprised if you see that same sentiment against Middle eastern Americans, you already have, I'm sure) and NOT ONE to my knowledge ever spoke in favor of the Native American.
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| Sep 20, 2008 @ 9:33 PM |
Why do sexual matters seem to upset the Christian community so much? |
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waterfire
Posts: 2,946
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liberal, heathen
I resemble that,well that was what grandpa called us as he chased us with is cane 
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| May 4 @ 10:57 AM |
Why do sexual matters seem to upset the Christian community so much?
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Deborah551
Posts: 1,029
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[/QUOTE]The belief that slavery was a chance to get the gospel to the "heathens" from Africa justified slavery to many Christians (as well as the fact that the Bible does NOT condemn slavery), and the right wing, flag wavers were in favor of the internment camps (don't be surprised if you see that same sentiment against Middle eastern Americans, you already have, I'm sure) and NOT ONE to my knowledge ever spoke in favor of the Native American. [QUOTE]
About 4 years ago I attended a Presbyterian church that was very conservative. (I am now agnostic so I'm telling this story only to confirm the truth of what Thor has said) Anyway, after church we shared a meal and this woman, who was from Alabama, and had just returned from there, told us about a trip she had taken to her old church and a book from the 1700's or 1800's that had a listing of slaves who converted to chrisitianity.
Well I was horrified and told her I couldn't believe that christians could actually own slaves, what with having to kidnap them and all. I knew slavery was permitted in the Bible, but kidnapping wasn't. I also knew that slavery was only permissible if the Jewish people took the land that bible god said was theirs. ( I have since changed my mind and find all the OT killing machine god evil.) Anyway, she said it was a good thing they were taken because they were allowed to attend church and learn about the good news. I told her that wasn't how Jesus converted people and not one person at the table of about 15 supported me. In fact, one man said they had to own slaves to compete with the other slave owners. It made me sick and it was just one more nail in the coffin that brought me to agnostism as of a week or so ago.
Most slaves were owned in the south....the Bible Belt where more slavery, lynchings, burnings, mobbings, and killings of black have taken place than anywhere else in the USA.
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| May 4 @ 11:06 AM |
Why do sexual matters seem to upset the Christian community so much? |
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Gallows_Humor
Posts: 13,672
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welcome to the forums... 
told us about a trip she had taken to her old church and a book from the 1700's or 1800's that had a listing of slaves who converted to chrisitianity,,,,,.Well I was horrified and told her I couldn't believe that christians could actually own slaves
to be accurate....the book would have had to say....this is a record of slaves who were owned by the christian members of this church.....who converted to Christianity against the wishes of their owners... to have any relevance to your very valid point..
is is christian..to own slaves.......??
but as every christian is a sinner until shown the path...it is a moot point as..slavery has been abolished in these times by ... christians...( and some non christians)
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| May 4 @ 11:07 AM |
Why do sexual matters seem to upset the Christian community so much?
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CPUfan
Posts: 7,983
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Sounds like you might previously have been worshipping in the company of shallow, narrow-minded brainlocks, Deb. I'm sorry to say you aren't entirely out of the woods yet, not here on MD. There are plenty of Christian deniers of the Christian immorality of slavery right here... But with you here, one less it seems. 
That's a pretty good start right off... 
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| May 4 @ 11:27 AM |
Why do sexual matters seem to upset the Christian community so much? |
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Deborah551
Posts: 1,029
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[QUOTE]to be accurate....the book would have had to say....this is a record of slaves who were owned by the christian members of this church.....who converted to Christianity against the wishes of their owners... to have any relevance to your very valid point.[QUOTE]
According to this woman, Susan, the converted slaves were listed in a separate part of the book, which is how she knew they were slaves, and they also had their own pews to sit in. I guess the white people didn't want to get tainted with black ink or black people.
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| May 4 @ 11:52 AM |
Why do sexual matters seem to upset the Christian community so much?
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Gallows_Humor
Posts: 13,672
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which also is wrong....
btw...the2nd [QU OTE] should look like this...[/QUOTE]
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| May 4 @ 12:02 PM |
Why do sexual matters seem to upset the Christian community so much? |
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beckyiv42000
Posts: 14,576
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Maybe because it is something they cannot CONTROL without being non Christ like?? They cannot in one breath condemn a homosexual and in another with a clear conscience follow the *love thy brother* that Christ taught.. it causes a meltdown in the logic of it all yanno??  
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| May 4 @ 1:44 PM |
Why do sexual matters seem to upset the Christian community so much?
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CPUfan
Posts: 7,983
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Deb, According to this woman, Susan, the converted slaves were listed in a separate part of the book, which is how she knew they were slaves, and they also had their own pews to sit in. I guess the white people didn't want to get tainted with black ink or black people. The slaves had their own pews but were not as yet segregated to their own church? The locals may have regressed at a later point.
Fortunately the (later?) establishment of African American churches was a very enlightened and positive experience. Which amongst other things gave us the positive energy of Gospel and of enjoying the social experience.
I also get the distinct impression of a higher level of forgiveness and brotherly love. No wonder such churches were so unpopular amongst the KKK.
BTW we are discussing a common ancestry here. Slavery was established by us British in the charters of our 'colonies', not by Americans (as yet!). 
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| May 4 @ 3:26 PM |
Why do sexual matters seem to upset the Christian community so much? |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 9,866
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Hi Deb!
Glad to see that you have started posting here. 
Hope to hear more from you.
Peace
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| May 4 @ 8:06 PM |
Why do sexual matters seem to upset the Christian community so much?
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Thor1960303
Posts: 3,345
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is is christian..to own slaves.......??
Sam Harris did a very good job, in my opinion on handling the issue of Christianity and slavery. He uses many Biblical refferences.
In assessing the moral wisdom of the Bible, it is useful to consider moral questions that have been solved to everyone's satisfaction. Consider the question of slavery. The entire civilized world now agrees that slavery is an abomination. What moral instruction do we get from the God of Abraham on this subject? Consult the Bible, and you will discover that the creator of the universe clearly expects us to keep slaves:
As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are round about you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you, to inherit as a possession forever; you may make slaves of them, but over your brethren the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another, with harshness.
—leviticus 25:44—46
The Bible also makes it clear that every man is free to sell his daughter into sexual slavery— though certain niceties apply:
When a man setts his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. If she does not please her master, who has designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed; he shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has dealt faithlessly with her. If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights. And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.
—exodus 21:7-11
The only real restraint God counsels on the subject of slavery is that we not beat our slaves so severely that we injure their eyes or their teeth (Exodus 21). It should go without saying that is not the kind of moral insight that put an end to slavery in the United States.
There is no place in the New Testament where Jesus objects to the practice of slavery. St. Paul even admonishes slaves to serve their masters well—and to serve their Christian masters especially well:
Slaves, be obedient to those who are your earthly masters, with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as to Christ....
---EPHESIANS 6:5
Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be defamed. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful on the ground that they are brethren; rather they must serve all the better since those who benefit by their service are believers and beloved. Teach and urge these duties. If any one teaches otherwise and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching which accords with godliness, he is puffed up with conceit, he knows nothing; he has a morbid craving for controversy and for disputes about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, base suspicions...
7
---1 TIMOTHY 6:1-4
It should be clear from these passages that, while the abolitionists of the nineteenth century were morally right, they were on the losing side of a theological argument. As the Reverend Richard Fuller put it in 1845, "What God sanctioned in the Old Testament, and permitted in the New, cannot be a sin." The good Reverend was on firm ground here. Nothing in Christian theology remedies the appalling deficiencies of the Bible on what is perhaps the greatest—and the easiest—moral question our society has ever had to face.
In response, Christians like yourself often point out that the abolitionists also drew considerable inspiration from the Bible. Of course they did. People have been cherry-picking the Bible for millennia to justify their every impulse, moral and otherwise. This does not mean, however, that accepting the Bible to be the word of God is the best way to discover that abducting and enslaving millions of innocent men, women, and children is morally wrong. It clearly isn't, given what the Bible actually says on the subject. The fact that some abolitionists used parts of scripture to repudiate other parts does not indicate that the Bible is a good guide to morality. Nor does it suggest that human beings should need to consult a book in order to resolve moral questions of this sort. The moment a person recognizes that slaves are human beings like himself, enjoying the same capacity for suffering and happiness, he will understand that it is patently evil to own them and treat them like farm equipment. It is remarkably easy for a person to arrive at this epiphany - and yet, it had to be spread at the point of a bayonet throughout the Confederate South, among the most pious Christians this country has ever known
Now I know our representatives of the God Squad will jump up and accuse Sam of quoting out of context, but in my opinion that argument about quoting out of context with regard to a subject like slavery is moot. IF the Bible is the undisputed, infallible Word of God that speaks for all of man's morality through ALL of the AGES for ALL TIME as Fundy Christians would have you believe, then, it would stand to reason that the Bible would've blanketly condemned slavery or any other type of indentured, unpaid servitu
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| May 4 @ 8:10 PM |
Why do sexual matters seem to upset the Christian community so much? |
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Thor1960303
Posts: 3,345
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servitude...
Cont.
Now back to the OP. Why is that sexual matters upset the fundies so badly? Again, Sam Harris looks at this in Letter to a Christian Nation:
One of the most pernicious effects of religion is that it tends to divorce morality from the reality of human and animal suffering. Religion allows people to imagine that their concerns are moral when they are not—that is, when they have nothing to do with suffering or its alleviation. Indeed, religion allows people to imagine that their concerns are moral when they are highly immoral—that is, when pressing these concerns inflicts unnecessary and appalling suffering on innocent human beings. This explains why Christians like yourself expend more "moral" energy opposing abortion than fighting genocide. It explains why you are more concerned about human embryos than about the lifesaving promise of stem-cell research. And it explains why you can preach against condom use in sub-Saharan Africa while millions die from AIDS there each year. You believe that your religious concerns about sex, in all their tiresome immensity, have something to do with morality. And yet, your efforts to constrain the sexual behavior of consenting adults—and even to discourage your own sons and daughters from having premarital sex—are almost never geared toward the relief of human suffering. In fact, relieving suffering seems to rank rather low on your list of priorities. Your principal concern appears to be that the creator of the universe will take offense at something people do while naked. This prudery of yours contributes daily to the surplus of human misery.
Consider, for instance, the human papillomavirus (HPV). HPV is now the most common sexually transmitted disease in the United States. The virus infects over half the American population and causes nearly five thousand women to die each year from cervical cancer; the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) estimates that more than two hundred thousand die worldwide. We now have a vaccine for HPV that appears to be both safe and effective. The vaccine produced 100 percent immunity in the six thousand women who received it as part of a clinical trial. And yet, Christian conservatives in our government have resisted a vaccination program on the grounds that HPV is a valuable impediment to premarital sex. These pious men and women want to preserve cervical cancer as an incentive toward abstinence, even if it sacrifices the lives of thousands of women each year.
There is nothing wrong with encouraging teens to abstain from having sex. But we know, beyond any doubt, that teaching abstinence alone is not a good way to curb teen pregnancy or the spread of sexually transmitted disease. In fact, kids who are taught abstinence alone are less likely to use contraceptives when they do have sex, as many of them inevitably will. One study found that teen "virginity pledges" postpone intercourse for eighteen months on average—while, in the meantime, these virgin teens were more likely than their peers to engage in oral and anal sex. American teenagers engage in about as much sex as teenagers in the rest of the developed world, but American girls are four to five times more likely to become pregnant, to have a baby, or to get an abortion. Young Americans are also far more likely to be infected by HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases. The rate of gonorrhea among American teens is seventy times higher than it is among their peers in the Netherlands
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and France. The fact that 30 percent of our sex-education programs teach abstinence only (at a cost of more than $200 million a year) surely has something to do with this.
The problem is that Christians like yourself are not principally concerned about teen pregnancy and the spread of disease. That is, you are not worried about the suffering caused by sex; you are worried about sex. As if this fact needed further corroboration, Reginald Finger, an Evangelical member of the CDC's Advisory
Committee on Immunization Practices, recently announced that he would consider opposing an HIV vaccine—thereby condemning millions of men and women to die unnecessarily from AIDS each year—because such a vaccine would encourage premarital sex by making it less risky. This is one of many points on which your religious beliefs become genuinely lethal.
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