| Nov 7, 2008 @ 8:39 AM |
Faith vs. Religion:
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,236
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All religion is based on faith, but not all faith needs to be religious, at least in the sense of requiring adherence to a recognized religious persuasion.
Religion teaches one to be altruistic, but traditionally that spirit of altruism has applied primarily to members of one's own group. All too often, true believers have chosen to show their enthusiasm for their chosen faith by fighting other groups. Our tolerance for this kind of religious zeal is diminishing. Behavior that was admired when the Crusaders went off to fight the infidels and recover the Holy Land is now regarded with suspicion to say the least.
We are entering a period when the panhumanist view is increasingly becoming the preferred view of thoughtful and well-informed people all over the world. Most of us look at sectarian killing in Lebanon, Bosnia, or Bombay, for example, with the same sense of "this is very wrong" that we have for similar killings in places like Burundi that arise from ethnic or linguistic differences rather than religious ones. All this mayhem is wrong, we conclude, even when some of the killers are motivated to a large degree by their faith in the Almighty as their particular group defines it. A terrorist is still a terrorist, even when he invokes God to justify his actions.
The Golden Rule is basically a humanist precept. It resides comfortably at the heart of the panhumanist perception; anywhere else, inside any old-fashioned belief in a God that favors some group over others, it is an alien element, troubling the true believer with contradictions between tribal suspicion of outsiders, and the gnawing thought that maybe that outsider is a human being too. Like the sand in a pearl-bearing oyster, such a doubt can irritate the ranks of the faithful into gradually, over many generations perhaps, expanding the ambit of their faith in a pan-humanist direction, to include all humanity.
Now that humanism is becoming ever more widely accepted, the Golden Rule is finally coming of age. And no proper humanist need feel bothered when asked whether he believes in God. Nor need he feel at all belligerent or defensive. He can simply say, "Yes, I believe in humanity, which is the modern equivalent".
The Limits of Faith:
As a humanist, I am skeptical about the old-fashioned faiths that require uncritical acceptance of the doctrines and dogmas of the major established religions. I have a lot of sympathy for the hard-nosed insistence of some modern humanists, like Richard Dawkins, that nothing be accepted "on faith", that before you accept any idea you should turn it inside out, look it over very carefully, and verify it through the scientific method.
I agree with Dawkins that "faith...is a state of mind that leads people to believe something--it doesn't matter what--in the total absence of supporting evidence." And most of the time I agree with him that "...it is capable of driving people to such dangerous folly that faith seems to me to qualify as a kind of mental illness".
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| Nov 7, 2008 @ 12:07 PM |
Faith vs. Religion: |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 9,865
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Yash,
So is it faith or religion that has caused violence throughout history to the current day?
To me faith is something that you as an individual have to support ideas that make sense to you but cannot be proven. Religion is more like a franchise where people buy into a predetermined blueprint of what they should believe. Religious faith is a product to be bought and sold. Individual faith is a healthy quest to answer the unknown.
Here is a Kabbalah video that tries to explain the difference:
The Difference Between Kabbalah and Religion
Enjoy!
Peace
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| Nov 8, 2008 @ 9:26 AM |
Faith vs. Religion:
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,236
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To me faith is something that you as an individual have to support ideas that make sense to you but cannot be proven I agree with this and the video I reviewed early.
But then alas when it comes to Religion I think Faith takes a different turn in that it is not about you at all, but some concept some other men put forward that cannot be proven.
I call that kind of faith the faith of Attachment you only believe because you want or need to believe as you need some attachment to give you some meaning to life so you do so in the blind via blind faith.
Faith alone is not solely the purview of Religion a person can have faith in others and/or other things, including oneself.
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| Nov 8, 2008 @ 12:06 PM |
Faith vs. Religion: |
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vinnytmd
Posts: 6,004
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The video about Kabballah is bogus. Using this as an interpretation of Kabballah would be like using a bunch of middle age men smoking dope in a teepee with some logs burning talk of Native American spirituality.
Study of Kabballah by actual Jews has several caveats.
The student MUST observe all of the commandments. This is not the 10 - it is the 613 that are believed to be contained in the Torah
The Student MUST have studied Torah with a respected Rabbi
The Student MUST be devoted to Torah studies.
This pop spirituality version of Kabballah is an ignorant, disrespectful, perversion of the intention of it's founders.
The idea that Kabballah and the Jewish religion is separate is so far fetched that it cannot be reeled in.
Sorry to burst your bubble. You will be better served to believe in the spirituality in Oprah.
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| Nov 8, 2008 @ 12:32 PM |
Faith vs. Religion:
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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The student MUST observe all of the commandments. This is not the 10 - it is the 613 that are believe to be contained in the Torah Well that's funny because Jesus tells his disciples to do that as well in Matt 5:17-20 yet how few Christians actually know even one. Do you? Do you know all 613 laws? About 100 of these laws have to do with animal sacrifice. Have you done any animal sacrifices lately?
The Student MUST have studied Torah with a respected Rabbi Why? Are there lots of disrespected rabbis? Who would follow them?
The Student MUST be devoted to Torah studies. 
This pop spirituality version of Kabballah is an ignorant, disrespectful, perversion of the intention of it's founders. Wow, that's a relief. That's should go for pretty much anything that's "pop" like pop psychology self help books. Big revelation....
So if you know what Kabballah is then bless us with your wisdom.
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| Nov 8, 2008 @ 12:56 PM |
Faith vs. Religion: |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 9,865
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Vinny,
I see that you think you are expert in both religion and politics now!
Before you make statements like you have, you should do some research.
Instead of learning from this video, you are blinded by your religious dogma!
Try viewing it again!
The Difference between Kabbalah and Religion
I guess that you feel you know more about kabbalah than Rav Michael Laitman, PhD.
I suggest you listen closely to his closing remark and get down from that high horse you picture yourself riding.
Peace
[Edited on 11/8/2008 1:06 PM]
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| Nov 8, 2008 @ 1:12 PM |
Faith vs. Religion:
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ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 7,434
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Are you surprised by the disagreements you've received so far Vinny???
Time + time again it's been illustrated that it doesn't matter much what your stance on anything is.
If the opinion you express does not mirror the opinion of the unholy triumvirate, then items more-personal, less-related to the topic of the thread, will find themselves sharing the limelight.
Grown men??? Really??
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| Nov 8, 2008 @ 1:14 PM |
Faith vs. Religion: |
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vinnytmd
Posts: 6,004
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Sail - I am not interested in getting into another religious bashing argument with you.
I am a Jew. I went to a Hebrew Talmudic Academy from 5th grade through High School.
I could care less about your internet gleanings on religion.
Do you know what the Pierre Salinger Syndrome is?
Pierre Salinger syndrome n. The tendency for online users, especially new users, to assume any information published on the Internet is automatically true.
Kabballah is part of Judaism and is considered hallowed ground. Kabballah is not seperate from religion as your silly video claims. Kabballah is actually deeply rooted in religion and religious practice.
Now resume your attack on me.
I posted about the topic and your idiot ass video from FOOKIN you tube.
[
[Edited on 11/8/2008 1:29 PM]
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| Nov 8, 2008 @ 2:07 PM |
Faith vs. Religion:
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SunBabe
Posts: 12,279
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The video about Kabballah is bogus. Using this as an interpretation of Kabballah would be like using a bunch of middle age men smoking dope in a teepee with some logs burning talk of Native American spirituality.
Study of Kabballah by actual Jews has several caveats.
The student MUST observe all of the commandments. This is not the 10 - it is the 613 that are believed to be contained in the Torah
The Student MUST have studied Torah with a respected Rabbi
The Student MUST be devoted to Torah studies.
This pop spirituality version of Kabballah is an ignorant, disrespectful, perversion of the intention of it's founders.
The idea that Kabballah and the Jewish religion is separate is so far fetched that it cannot be reeled in.
Sorry to burst your bubble. You will be better served to believe in the spirituality in Oprah.
Sorry, I have to laugh. I've NEVER NEVAH observed two "scholastic" Jews agree on anything, muchless everything. ~grin~
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| Nov 8, 2008 @ 2:12 PM |
Faith vs. Religion: |
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vinnytmd
Posts: 6,004
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Sunbabe - what I posted is Jewish Law - the rest is a bunch of pop Jews that are trying to capitalize on gullible idiots like Madonna.
There are many prayers from the Zohar that are used in everyday Jewish practice.
To separate this from the Religion is wishful thinking from lazy atheists that are incapable of respectful commitment to religion.
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| Nov 8, 2008 @ 2:35 PM |
Faith vs. Religion:
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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Vinny
Iam curious why you couldn't say if you knew all 613 laws and used 100 of those for animal sacrifices. That should be a simple enough question for you.
You seem have gripes with "pop" Jews. I've known a lot of Jews from Brooklyn and Williamsburg but I never met a pop Jew before. Maybe I did and didn't know it. How would I recognize one? Do the yamakas have leds on them or something? Would you be an unpop Jew?
I do have to agree about the Madonna crap. She is playing up publicity because she had a baby and was trying to get all spiritual. She must be learning this stuff from those pop Jews.
Kind of wondering if Jesus was some sort of pop Jew himself.
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| Nov 8, 2008 @ 2:55 PM |
Faith vs. Religion: |
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vinnytmd
Posts: 6,004
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hammetime, I do not agree with the 613 mitzvot nor do I practice them. I do respect people that have devoted themselves to a spiritual religious lifestyle.
In real Kabballah Study it is thought that the only way to experience this high level of spiritual understanding is with devotion to the Laws. I agree.
The Zohar is a spiritual expansion of the Torah. So how can one understand the deep spiritual meaning of the Torah without having studied it?
The pop Kabballah BS is disrespectful and dangerous. It is like going to a Native American Sweat Lodge that is run by burned out white hippies. You will likely have some sort of spiritual experience, just not one that was intended by real devoted Native American practice.
These phony Rabbis are making a freakin fortune on their gullible followers that is for sure. Madonna has made millionaires of many Jewish schleppers with long beards.
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| Nov 8, 2008 @ 2:55 PM |
Faith vs. Religion:
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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SOC
You should know all those laws too. Jesus said so. How many have you memorized? How many? None?
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| Nov 8, 2008 @ 3:26 PM |
Faith vs. Religion: |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 9,865
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Hammer,
Christianity has done to Jesus' teachings what Judaism has done to the teachings of Kabbalah.
Jesus was Jewish not Christian. Those that did not understand Jesus' teachings built and authored Christian dogma. Likewise, Judaism was built and authored by Jews that were unable to understand Kabbalah. Abraham was the first known Kabbalist and Judaism did not exist at that time.
Funny how religious people will twist things. Christians try to tell us that their borrowed pagan myths were actually stolen from Christianity by pagans. Jews try to say that the Kabbalah was developed from Judaism.
Vinny,
Iam thinking that you'renot as knowledgable as you think you are.
Peace
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| Nov 8, 2008 @ 3:32 PM |
Faith vs. Religion:
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vinnytmd
Posts: 6,004
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sail - the Zohar and therefore Kabballah began in the 13th century.
I think you have been duped. DO not send money to these people!
Please sail. Do some googling.
Abraham? Where did you get this gem from? Are you talking about Abraham Goldberg? 
Yup - sure sounds like it is not Religious
The Zohar (Hebrew: ??????, lit Splendor or Radiance) is widely considered the most important work of Kabbalah, or Jewish mysticism. It is a mystical commentary on the Torah (the five books of Moses), written in medieval Aramaic. It contains a mystical discussion of the nature of God, the origin and structure of the universe, the nature of souls, sin, redemption, good and evil, and the relationship between God and man.
The Zohar is not one book, but a group of books; these books include scriptural interpretations as well as material on theosophic theology, mythical cosmogony, mystical psychology, and what some would call anthropology.
The Zohar first appeared in Spain in the 13th century, and was published by a Jewish writer named Moses de Leon. Scholem, based on accounts from De Leon's contemporaries, and on evidence within the Zohar (Spanish idioms and syntax, for example), concluded that De Leon was the actual author.
De Leon himself ascribed this work to a rabbi of the second century, Shimon bar Yochai.[1] Jewish legend holds that during a time of Roman persecution, Rabbi Shimon hid in a cave for 13 years, studying the Torah with his son, Elazar.[2][3] During this time he is said to have been inspired by Elijah the Prophet to write the Zohar.
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| Nov 8, 2008 @ 3:36 PM |
Faith vs. Religion: |
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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So Vinny you are not well versed in the laws and also not well versed in the Kabballah either but you feel you know more than the rest of us. Meanwhile I agree that such knowledge can be misused and misinterpreted but then again all religion is already that way. Look at Christians and their thousands of denominations and wars with each other and everyone else. Jews have far fewer denomination but are very diverse in their beliefs too. To me, all have varying levels of bullshit factor.
As for Kabballah, its been around and available long before Madonna and I learned of it and started my own study in my teens. The biggest issue that I learned from a Rabbi who was shocked I even knew about it was that the Kabballah could drive someone crazy. Kether will do that in its highest emanations but Quantum physics can also do that same. I kind of agree that any religious belief can drive people crazy but I think he just didn't want this sort of sacred knowledge becoming common knowledge. From his point of view it might have cheapened it. Since the beginning of history the elite adepts, would initiate only a few into the inner sanctum to separate the sacred and profane.
Whether you like it or not, this knowledge has been available to those who would seek it. The books are there and the occult circles always existed. The Kabballah is an occult discipine.
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| Nov 8, 2008 @ 3:40 PM |
Faith vs. Religion:
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vinnytmd
Posts: 6,004
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Well hammertime - that may well be true. But without knowledge of the Torah you are studying BS. And the results will be BS.
You can call it Kabballah if you want. Who cares.
I can call an experience with some hippies in a tent a sweat lodge experience. It is not.
Spiritual journey requires some level of devotion to something other than pop culture.
I kind of agree that any religious belief can drive people crazy but I think he just didn't want this sort of sacred knowledge becoming common knowledge. From his point of view it might have cheapened it.
Maybe you just cannot accept that the Rabbi has a level of understanding that you will never have with devotion to the Religion. Of course there is material available to learn about Kabballah.
The first thing you miss is that Kabballist think that Hebrew is a magical language. So how can you study Zohar without understanding Hebrew?
I have read about Kabballah and studied Zohar. We studied it in TA from a historical perspective and to help us understand how deep and powerful Torah is.
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| Nov 8, 2008 @ 3:48 PM |
Faith vs. Religion: |
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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sail - the Zohar and therefore Kabballah began in the 13th century. Get your history right. You're talking about an event, not its origin. Jewish mysticism can be traced back to the Egyptians and Sumerians where the Jews got it from in the first place. The God of Abraham comes from the Sumerian pantheon.
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| Nov 8, 2008 @ 3:51 PM |
Faith vs. Religion:
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hammertime
Posts: 14,071
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The first thing you miss is that Kabballist think that Hebrew is a magical language. So how can you study Zohar without understanding Hebrew? Right!! and have you seen the movie Pi?
As for the magical mystical stuff, its all about guessing what God's real name is and thats nothing more than a Rumpelstiltskin story. I kind of thing that fairytale is a metaphor for the Tetragrammaton. I prefer to leave out the superstitions when I study this stuff.
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| Nov 8, 2008 @ 3:57 PM |
Faith vs. Religion: |
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vinnytmd
Posts: 6,004
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Get your history right. You're talking about an event, not its origin. Jewish mysticism can be traced back to the Egyptians and Sumerians where the Jews got it from in the first place. The God of Abraham comes from the Sumerian pantheon.
Prove that.
We are talking about the Kabballah. While some believe that the Zohar was the result of God's revelation to Avram there is no proof. Likewise there is no proof that the Zohar was written prior to the 13th Century.
Are you saying that there were Jews that happened to be Mystics BCE?
Or are you saying that there is documentation that a school of thought of Jewish Mysticism existed?
How can a guy that does not believe in God defend the Kabballists and Zohar?
They are the deepest believers in God?
So how can you understand the Zohar without understanding Hebrew? It is impossible.
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