| Nov 15, 2008 @ 10:03 AM |
Does the Soul or Spirit Really Exist? A Follow-Up
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,235
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Our current understanding of how the physical brain creates our mind should in my opinion be sufficient to reject the idea that our personality can exist in a non-physical form.
It is true, and will probably always be true, that science does not understand everything about how our brain/mind works. It is, for example, a total mystery how the basic functionality of the brain hardware creates a conscious mind. In fact, it is pretty much a mystery what a conscious mind is.
Thus, in the same way that theists can push an increasingly elusive God into the gaps that still exist in our understanding of the physical universe, super naturalists can try to make a soul or spirit fit into the gaps in our current knowledge about the brain. I argued in my previous article about this subject that since an appeal to the supernatural is unnecessary for understanding the mind, it does not really explain anything, and since we reject these kind of pseudo-explanations in other situations in life, we should also reject it here.
The belief in a soul (or spirit) is closely tied to belief in human immortality. We have always observed that the human body is destroyed by natural processes after death. For our conscious self to survive physical death, we would need to have some component that is not material, and that survives death, bringing our personality, thoughts and memories into some transcendental existence. The ancient Egyptians used embalment to try to preserve the body for the afterlife. Most contemporary religions who espouse an afterlife doctrine argues that since we have a soul (or spirit), we don't need our bodies. We can still somehow live on.
As much as I personally would like to believe in an afterlife, I find that it contradicts everything we currently know about the world. Thus, I cannot believe it.
Now, I must hasten to add that there are many different definitions of both "soul" and "spirit", and this can easily confuse any debate to the point of becoming meaningless. Both 'soul' and 'spirit' is often used as a reference to artistic expression, a person's deepest conviction, or the depth of a person's character, and many other meanings. I am not presently discussing such things. I do refer to 'soul' (which I for this purpose consider synonymous with spirit) only in the meaning 'a non-physical entity that can carry our conscious selves after the body is destroyed.' If we have such a soul, this means that 'we' can survive death, and we will preserve at least some of our memories and personal qualities from this life. This being will have a sense of being a continuation of a past corporal life, of being 'us' in a real sense.
There are two dilemmas, or problems, I would like to point out to those who believe in such a soul.
Firstly, some super naturalists point to known holes in our scientific knowledge of the world. Or they point to ill-understood, or perhaps more correctly, counter-intuitive scientific theories like quantum mechanics. I see this as an appeal to inaccurate knowledge. How can we reasonably conclude that lack of knowledge about certain details necessarily, or even probably, point us in the direction of the ancient beliefs of cultures that often didn't even know that the Earth was round? If a new discovery should actually point us in another direction, surprisingly giving us some support for the idea that we do have a soul, fine, then we should go along with that. But future developments are just as likely to point in the opposite direction (or more so). To hold on to a belief that conflicts with all present knowledge, expecting that evidence will mysteriously appear to support it in the future, is obviously irrational.
Furthermore, I will point out that the progress of scientific discovery has been consistently leading us away from supernaturalism and towards wholly naturalistic explanations. As science has been able to shed more and more light on the workings of the universe, previous supernatural explanations have been found superfluous at best, flawed at worst, and were rejected. The understanding of electricity has explained to us how lightning works. If there still existed people who believed in ancient Greek mythology, they would perhaps still postulate that somehow lightning bolts were really, somehow, on a metaphysical plane, the works of an angry Zevs, but I doubt anybody else would consider this a serious explanation.
The argument above is inductive, and somebody could still argue that sometime, in the future, scientists will discover facts that finally supports their particular supernatural beliefs, but in doing so, they violate everything we call common sense. Natural laws are derived from continued observation and inductive arguments, and once you have seen apples falling down a sufficient number of times, you no longer really believe it is possible they will fall upwards tomorrow.
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| Nov 15, 2008 @ 10:07 AM |
Does the Soul or Spirit Really Exist? A Follow-Up |
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,235
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The reason I suspect that quantum mechanics is currently en vogue as a hiding spot for the soul is that this is a fantastically counter-intuitive branch of science, and it is also complicated, generally only understood (if 'understood' is a good term here) by people who have a firm grasp of mathematics and physics. Previously, the theory of relativity has been popular among adherents of all sort of pseudo-science and new age'isms. It has the same convenient qualities as quantum mechanics: it is difficult to understand and its implications are quite baffling. Where understanding is lacking, it is easy to try to fit in some preconceived ideas. I am certainly no expert in either field, but I have never seen anyone giving a rational explanation of why QM or relativity should really support any form of supernaturalism. Rather, I see many examples of complicated terms being misused, and often used to baffle believers to conclude that a particular preacher knows more than he or she really does. Thus, I admise caution in adapting the terminology from science and using it where it does not belong.
The second problem I want to point out to supernaturalists who believe in the soul is an argument I already touched in my first article.
We know from empirical data that physical damage to the brain sometimes permanently damages a part of a person's memory. Sometimes, also, various abilites and talents are lost. When the physical brain is damaged, through accidents, disease or use of restricted substances, the personality and memory is directly affected. Sometimes scientists can learn a lot by observing which parts of the brain is damaged, and what effects this have on the patient, thus making meaningful conclusions about how the brain operates.
Now, if we really have a soul, which somehow retains all (or most of) this information independent from the physical brain, why does physical damage to the brain have this effect? Furthermore, as a person dies, more and more of the brain is destroyed, and the personality disappears along with it. This is a tragic spectacle to experience for anyone who has seen a loved one die a slow death. We see no evidence that there is a soul who keeps the mind alive through the decay and eventual destruction of the brain.
Why, then, should we believe that when the brain is totally destroyed, the personality, memories and abilities suddenly reappears in a non-physical form? Is the soul a metaphysical backup of our physical brain that is somehow liberated, tranformed to spirit form (whatever that is) and can live on?
I will reassert that the belief in a soul is a rudiment of an ancient, supernatural understanding of the world. It may have make sense for an ancient. who tried to understand how a person can live, to postulate an inanimate power within that was the 'real' person. It could then follow that this power, or soul, could survive death. But when it became obvious that thougths are directly linked to electrical and chemical processes in our physical brain, this view ceased to be rational. It defies reason and it defies the actual facts we have on the table. That many intelligent, otherwise rational people subscribe to this idea, I attribute to our species' remarkable tendency to be conservative in retaining beliefs and practices long after their usefulness is over.
The 'soul' is a relic of the past, an expression of nostalgia. To a significant degree it is also an expression of our desire for immortality. But wanting something to be true does not make it factual.
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| Nov 15, 2008 @ 10:22 AM |
Does the Soul or Spirit Really Exist? A Follow-Up
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,235
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A counter to this argument is what if the Soul is not a part of the body but resides within a Life Force some refer to as Chi, Ki, Hara, or some say your center. The energy that is the essence to all life, and all things stated as All That There Is and Is Not. Westerners may refer to this as Spirit, Soul or holy trinity.
In various forms of Eastern mysticism some may refer to this as your True Nature, a Life Force that was never born, thus it is not subject to that which man kinds concept refers to as Death. If ones Soul resided there then you could take all that you were in this temporal existence with you, or could you?
Could this explain the term Reincarnation?
Of course in this view there is no death, it is but a man made Concept and if anything humans are stuffed full of false concepts starting from birth.
Let us try to have some intellectual exchanges regarding this without using dogma. I am more interested in what you think, rather than you citing old writings that have no verifiable source.
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| Nov 16, 2008 @ 8:09 AM |
Does the Soul or Spirit Really Exist? A Follow-Up |
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eyesofastranger
Posts: 922
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about 104k years ago we developed language 78k years ago we developed art. this was the big bang in human thought. art made us able to see what is only in abstract. from this point we have evolved language into a truly wonderful thing. language gave us a sense of self aware that is a mystery. the soul if exists is independant of chemistry hormones steroids feramones. but the soul can experience the deeps of love and sex impossible for the spirit being.
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| Nov 16, 2008 @ 10:03 AM |
Does the Soul or Spirit Really Exist? A Follow-Up
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waterfire
Posts: 2,946
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personally i think people confuse the issue by thinking we the mortal imprint the immortal, take a glass of water and pour it into the ocean then look for your water.
the right or wrong of incarnation, we dieing then getting a new body, our soul advancing to a higher level is all really just (IMO) mental masturbation since we are alive now and all too soon will not be.
I think there is more than enough to learn about being alive than about something (death) that no one has ever came back from and given us the low down.
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| Nov 16, 2008 @ 11:39 AM |
Does the Soul or Spirit Really Exist? A Follow-Up |
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willowy1
Posts: 9,181
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I can not trust an independent reality of an external world beyond my own thoughts.  ..Ashes to ashes dust to dust, unless of course one of the mighty spirits decides to give me a good spit.
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| Nov 16, 2008 @ 12:06 PM |
Does the Soul or Spirit Really Exist? A Follow-Up
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BandTMom
Posts: 38,041
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I can not trust an independent reality of an external world beyond my own thoughts.
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| Nov 17, 2008 @ 12:49 AM |
Does the Soul or Spirit Really Exist? A Follow-Up |
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beckyiv42000
Posts: 14,576
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I know there is something.. whether it is a soul a life force and essence its there .. it makes ME .. ME and YOU .. YOU but to think that it is exclusively a human thing is kinda silly... every living sentient thing has a SOMETHING.. that makes them alive...makes them react ... and that SOMEthing in some may be more evolved but I kinda doubt that we are just here... and the whole sentient being is questionable too... until we pass we wont KNOW for sure ...
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| Nov 17, 2008 @ 8:29 AM |
Does the Soul or Spirit Really Exist? A Follow-Up
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,235
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Very profound i think people confuse the issue by thinking we the mortal imprint the immortal, take a glass of water and pour it into the ocean then look for your water. It would be the other way around, would it not?
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| Nov 19, 2008 @ 10:44 AM |
Does the Soul or Spirit Really Exist? A Follow-Up |
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waterfire
Posts: 2,946
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It would be the other way around, would it not?
YEs it would!
I mean think about it!
Back in the day when we first started to take pictures the shutter speed was so slow that anything that moved was a blur (people. plants, etc )! Guess what the conclusion was, "anything with a soul can not be photographed" 
I can not trust an independent reality of an external world beyond my own thoughts
Exactly!
I mean that is all one should trust especially with all the explanations running amok in the world today from people that do JUST NOT KNOW but are really good at making things up 
Trust yourself, follow that need YOU have and not what others say you have or say you need.
i mean everyone has that need to FEEL peace and because others know this they offer THEIR ideas on how this may be achieved. The really funny thing is that almost ALL say you need to die before this can happen
I mean WTF That is the same as saying "hey you are hungry wait till you die to eat: To me that need of joy, peace, contentment is a promise that it can happen NOW in this life not in another or some form of heaven.
Because we dont know people come up with concepts of why this or that can not happen in this life while that hunger exists in us daily. So what happens, we shed that tear of longing but people will still explain the why of this instead of saying "yes, that tear can be washed away now"
So yes, feel that need but know that yes regardless of what others believe it is real, it is a need in us and yes it can be satisfied NOW.
[Edited on 11/19/2008 11:49 AM]
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| Nov 19, 2008 @ 12:34 PM |
Does the Soul or Spirit Really Exist? A Follow-Up
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,235
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The only person that can make you happy in reality is but Self, your own self.
The only person that can make you love another and accept love from another is also your own self.
The only way you can give your love 100% or receive love 100% is to accept yourself and love yourself now 100%.
To attempt this any other way is just fooling yourself.
Any Concept of all that there is and is not, or that which you label God spelled in any way is but the God that resides in your own mind, Where else could in reside, in a book, in your heart, what heart, your heart is just a muscle that acts as a pump.
A soul can also be called a Spirit or Chi ones life force. There are many names and labels but some how they all point to the same thing.
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| Nov 19, 2008 @ 12:51 PM |
Does the Soul or Spirit Really Exist? A Follow-Up |
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bevrice
Posts: 11,141
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You are right in one aspect, yash, we are the only ones who can make us happy, that is a choice we make.
Now, there are lots of things that we CAN'T do for ourselves, like fill that empty space inside when God is not present. That is HIS place.
Do we have a soul, a spirit? Have you ever talked to anyone who has left their body, yash. Some say we do it every night in our dreams. You are still thinking, still feeling, you know.
People who have died and been brought back to life can tell you what they experienced. My grandmother died on the operating table. She left her body and could see and hear everything the doctors were doing. She said it was beautiful, peaceful and all she wanted to do was go into the waiting room and tell her dad and my grand dad to never fear death. She was certainly hearing, seeing and feeling.
If there is no such thing as a soul or a spirit, how do you explain the paranormal, yash?
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| Nov 19, 2008 @ 12:57 PM |
Does the Soul or Spirit Really Exist? A Follow-Up
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,235
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Put on your glasses and read I never said a soul or spirit does not exist and to clarify something. The only person who can make you happy is yourself, happiness does not come from without, but from within.
In your own words if you chose to let your God within you that will make you happy, when? After he or it is within you and not before that. Even you can see that if not I will pity you from this point onward.
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| Nov 19, 2008 @ 1:16 PM |
Does the Soul or Spirit Really Exist? A Follow-Up |
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waterfire
Posts: 2,946
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People who have died and been brought back to life can tell you what they experienced. My grandmother died on the operating table
yes and i have drank 'near beer' and that just simply does not take you there
sheesh, near death means nothing, did one follow through...no instead they gave an account of what they experienced UP TO the moment they came back. Hell I have had that experience but all it brought o me was that yes, I will experience something and that yes something will be there when I leave this body BUT no it is not the whole of it.
If there is no such thing as a soul or a spirit, how do you explain the paranormal
Why you call it paranormal is beyond me, I see it as normal, something that happens. Hmm, I guess since it is not on a McDonalds menu it can be considered para 
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| Nov 19, 2008 @ 1:56 PM |
Does the Soul or Spirit Really Exist? A Follow-Up
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Tarzan
Posts: 499
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Reincarnation is proven.
Just because you dont experience and remember what you do in the spirit isnt other peoples problems and falsified nonsense.
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| Nov 19, 2008 @ 1:56 PM |
Does the Soul or Spirit Really Exist? A Follow-Up |
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Tarzan
Posts: 499
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Reincarnation is proven.
Just because you dont experience and remember what you do in the spirit isnt other peoples problems and falsified nonsense.
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| Nov 19, 2008 @ 2:23 PM |
Does the Soul or Spirit Really Exist? A Follow-Up
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sail_dancer
Posts: 9,857
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Yash,
You may appreciate this video:
The Primacy of Consciousness - Peter Russell
Mr. Russell seems to equate soul/spirit with consciousness.
Enjoy!
Peace
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| Nov 19, 2008 @ 2:41 PM |
Does the Soul or Spirit Really Exist? A Follow-Up |
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,235
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Thanks Sail I will check it out..
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| Nov 19, 2008 @ 3:52 PM |
Does the Soul or Spirit Really Exist? A Follow-Up
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bevrice
Posts: 11,141
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Gee, you guys just die one day, go down to that buddhist hell, be chased by hungry demons or lost and judged by some demon god. Then have the hell of having to live over and over with no memory of who you were.
Then return one day, no memory of yourself, none of yourself left, just this soul.
Gee, you may as well lie in the grave forever.
When I die and go to heaven, I will be ME and not some conglomeration of mes, or some tiny part of some unknown entity, ME.
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| Nov 19, 2008 @ 5:52 PM |
Does the Soul or Spirit Really Exist? A Follow-Up |
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waterfire
Posts: 2,946
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Reincarnation is proven
yeah right, nothing but claims
I really dont care if you believe in reincarnation or not. To me I have this life NOW and want to discover it NOW not waste it thinking..."next time around it may happen".
proven my....
When I die and go to heaven, I will be ME and not some conglomeration of mes, or some tiny part of some unknown entity, ME.
When i die I will find out what happens then 
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