| Apr 27, 2009 @ 9:01 AM |
Ted Haggard Explains the Pleasures of Christian Sex...
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iam01
Posts: 7,567
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SOC,
doesn't your condition often take you off reality?
Its not off topic. Its a request for clarification of what someone said. Maybe you should answer it but you're never capable of answering anything that requires thinking most of the time. You have no need for knowledge and logic.
I no longer need to employ either knowledge or logic in my life.
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| Apr 27, 2009 @ 9:15 AM |
Ted Haggard Explains the Pleasures of Christian Sex... |
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southernlass
Posts: 2,989
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Sail, I'm of the personal opinion that atheists can put their sign up anywhere they want as long as they understand that we'll continue to do the same. And as for prayer? We've been publicly praying in this nation since it was founded. Yes, you can say our forefathers were deists etc., but there is far more proof around that show that many of them believed in a Creator and prayed to Him/It.
Prayer hurts no one and it's similar to the moment of silence. No one is making anyone else pray. Meditate during the prayer or say your own version of a prayer or simply allow those who pray to do so. The hyper vigilance to stamp out everything religious is a spirit of antichrist within those who cannot tolerate other people's beliefs.
No one promised you or those who think like you FREEDOM FROM RELIGION. They promised FREEDOM OF RELIGION. Try to grasp this. You are free to express your non belief, your non religiousness, or not. And we are free to express ours or not as well. This is still a free country for the time being.
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| Apr 27, 2009 @ 9:17 AM |
Ted Haggard Explains the Pleasures of Christian Sex...
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iam01
Posts: 7,567
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If one group can pray then all groups can pray but Christians don't want that...
Meanwhile, what atrocities did you say Christians are responsible for?
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| Apr 27, 2009 @ 9:43 AM |
Ted Haggard Explains the Pleasures of Christian Sex... |
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Thor1960303
Posts: 3,555
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Why would you argue that believers have less right to influence government and forward their agendas?
I don't, that is until constitutional lines are crossed. That goes for both sides.
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| Apr 27, 2009 @ 9:45 AM |
Ted Haggard Explains the Pleasures of Christian Sex...
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Thor1960303
Posts: 3,555
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No one promised you or those who think like you FREEDOM FROM RELIGION. They promised FREEDOM OF RELIGION. Try to grasp this. You are free to express your non belief, your non religiousness, or not. And we are free to express ours or not as well. This is still a free country for the time being.
What's the difference? You still seem to imply that one deserves an advantage over the other.
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| Apr 27, 2009 @ 10:06 AM |
Ted Haggard Explains the Pleasures of Christian Sex... |
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Thor1960303
Posts: 3,555
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Does common sense also include things of morality?
Of course it does. Morality is basically common sense. Instead of blanketly jumping on the bandwagon and accusing those of us of non religion of being "relativists", take an objective look at any "moral" issue. Ask yourself why a certain action is deemed "moral" or "Immoral".
The difference between the morals of a religionist and non religionist is the religionist doesn't question a commandment or ask any reasons for it. The non religionist looks at the same and applies logic. Why is something forbidden or allowed? Not merely "thou shalt" or "thou shalt not".
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| Apr 27, 2009 @ 10:44 AM |
Ted Haggard Explains the Pleasures of Christian Sex...
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iam01
Posts: 7,567
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First Amendment...
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
What part of that do Christians not understand especially the part underlined? A school is not a place of worship but there is plenty of free time to pray. In the toilet, lunch time, free periods, walking to school, walking from school, recess, when a substitute teacher shows up, etc.... Not good enough???
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| Apr 27, 2009 @ 10:56 AM |
Ted Haggard Explains the Pleasures of Christian Sex... |
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CPUfan
Posts: 7,987
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Freedom of religion no longer means or implies the freedom to inculcate new generations of children in beliefs over which they have not yet achieved any degree of personal choice. That is the outcome of cases like the Dover case. The keyword here is choice. If children are given a choice of religion, or an opportunity to learn a religion alongside their real schooling and education, this is something entirely different to simply inculcating them in one religion. This is why religion has been declining at a diametric rate throughout the Western World.
Inculcating children in one religion is going to be so-very-obsolete during the course of this century. Including Islamics who voluntarily emigrated to the West.
Just as there is a secular state in the West, the future 'state' of education and schools will also be entirely secular. Religion and science WILL be kept separate and all children will KNOW the difference. That is the import of the Dover case. The bell tolls for religious indoctrination...
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| Apr 27, 2009 @ 11:36 AM |
Ted Haggard Explains the Pleasures of Christian Sex...
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southernlass
Posts: 2,989
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Thor: What's the difference? You still seem to imply that one deserves an advantage over the other.
No, I don't. How so?
Inculcating children in one religion is going to be so-very-obsolete during the course of this century. Including Islamics who voluntarily emigrated to the West.
Just as there is a secular state in the West, the future 'state' of education and schools will also be entirely secular. Religion and science WILL be kept separate and all children will KNOW the difference. That is the import of the Dover case. The bell tolls for religious indoctrination...
I disagree completely with these statements, CPU. More and more of the religious/spiritual are realizing that we prefer to teach our children at home or in a private Christian school of some sort instead of leaning toward the public school system, which is becoming increasingly problematic. This realization for many ensures that religion will never merely "go away." I'm sure the thought is appealing for you, but nevertheless it is unreaslistic.
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| Apr 27, 2009 @ 11:54 AM |
Ted Haggard Explains the Pleasures of Christian Sex... |
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iam01
Posts: 7,567
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I disagree completely with these statements, CPU. More and more of the religious/spiritual are realizing that we prefer to teach our children at home or in a private Christian school of some sort instead of leaning toward the public school system, This will insure more and more unqualified parents will put out a generation of stupid kids to grow up as stupid adults filled with religious delusions and superstitions. They will not be able to compete in the world. Unless, of course, they get jobs in churches and missionaries or perhaps become military personal praying for war with infidels and playing Left Behind:Eternal Forces on their free time.
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| Apr 27, 2009 @ 1:35 PM |
Ted Haggard Explains the Pleasures of Christian Sex...
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Thor1960303
Posts: 3,555
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Thor: What's the difference? You still seem to imply that one deserves an advantage over the other.
No, I don't. How so?
No one promised you or those who think like you FREEDOM FROM RELIGION. They promised FREEDOM OF RELIGION.
Your statement here seems to imply that non belief wasn't or shouldn't even considered worth protecting. Why can't "freedom of" also mean, "freedom from"?
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| Apr 27, 2009 @ 2:14 PM |
Ted Haggard Explains the Pleasures of Christian Sex... |
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iam01
Posts: 7,567
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Why can't "freedom of" also mean, "freedom from"? We have both and thats clear in the 1st amendment.
As long as religion is not "established" then no particular religion is established. Any religion is free to practice including Satanism. The government recognizes the Church of Satan right of a tax free status and donations are tax deductible.
Of course, all these religious ideas are based on pure superstition and blind faith so all should not have any place in any public learning institution.
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| Apr 27, 2009 @ 2:29 PM |
Ted Haggard Explains the Pleasures of Christian Sex...
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yashaenka
Posts: 10,289
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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereoff It is the last part of this sentence that limits government from deciding what is a religion and what is not or making any law about it.
Beware any constitutional Amendment that might amend this.
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| Apr 27, 2009 @ 2:30 PM |
Ted Haggard Explains the Pleasures of Christian Sex... |
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Thor1960303
Posts: 3,555
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The government recognizes the Church of Satan right of a tax free status and donations are tax deductible.
Actually LaVey's CoS never recieved tax free status. Why this happened depends on which version of history you're reading. One source says that his efforts at gaining 501 C-3 status were unsuccessful while other sources say that he never pursued it because LaVey believed that all churches should be taxed including his own.
The offshoots from the CoS, such as the Temple of Set and the First Church of Satan DID get tax free status.
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| Apr 27, 2009 @ 2:33 PM |
Ted Haggard Explains the Pleasures of Christian Sex...
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CPUfan
Posts: 7,987
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More and more of the religious/spiritual are realizing that we prefer to teach our children at home or in a private Christian school of some sort instead of leaning toward the public school system,
Well then that would most definitely limit the target group to a clear maximum of the children of the religious/spiritual then, would it not? Presumably in rural areas to boot? That is truly a declining curve if there ever was one.  
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| Apr 27, 2009 @ 3:22 PM |
Ted Haggard Explains the Pleasures of Christian Sex... |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 10,218
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SL,
We've been publicly praying in this nation since it was founded. That just goes to show that enough people complained for this practice to be stopped. A public gathering is not a christian gathering just because you and some of your christian friends show up.
If you went to a public concert or something similar and it was started by a prayer but that prayer was to Allah, would you feel any resentment that the prayer was not directed to your god?
Prayer hurts no one and it's similar to the moment of silence. Then why not just say a silent prayer?
No one is making anyone else pray. Meditate during the prayer or say your own version of a prayer or simply allow those who pray to do so. Why should anyone have to do anything silently while you christians pray out loud in unison to attract attention? Jesus forsaw this christian attitude and that is why he told us how to pray:Matthew 6 (King James Version)
5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
If I remember correctly, the Pope was able to pray and say mass at Yankee Stadium recently. If the gathering is a christian gathering, there are no bans on prayer. If the gathering is not religious, you have no right to try and change it into a christian prayer group.
Peace
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| Apr 27, 2009 @ 3:40 PM |
Ted Haggard Explains the Pleasures of Christian Sex...
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Heaveninawildflower
Posts: 19,366
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Heck, there are prayers at every NASCAR race. I have no problem with anyone saying that they're asking God for a safe race. Even if I were an atheist I'd feel they had the right to pray to anyone they pleased, and at worst I'd just quietly hope for a safe race.
I don't think it's the public school's right to teach that to young and supposedly impressionable children though unless all religions were represented, including atheism, in order to meet the letter of the law in the Constitution. Failing that, it's necessary to keep public prayer out of the schools or run the risk of violating the sanction against government support of one religion over another.
Of course there are no guarantees about those 'impressionable' children anyway. I was almost invariably the one chosen to read the bible psalms at assembly when I was a kid. OK, it was because of my lungs, not my religiosity. There ain't no microphones in opera.
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| Apr 27, 2009 @ 4:12 PM |
Ted Haggard Explains the Pleasures of Christian Sex... |
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CPUfan
Posts: 7,987
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Heaven, that's why it's an issue of the integrity of the educational system - and NOT one of the survival of religion...
Personally I feel that everyone has the right to choose their own religion. I do NOT feel that anyone else has the right to choose their religion for them. That is authoritarian, reactionary and prejudicial.
People who choose their own religion have the right to pray and think as they wish.
Indoctrinating children forms no part of either the consitution or Western morality. We live in pluralist, open societies in which people have the right to believe - but NO ONE has the right to think on the behalf of others or to act as the mouthpieces of GOD. So that kind of 'religion' and arch-reactionary propaganda can happily descend into oblivion from any constitutional or Western pluralist standpoint.
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| Apr 27, 2009 @ 7:20 PM |
Ted Haggard Explains the Pleasures of Christian Sex...
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southernlass
Posts: 2,989
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Thor: Your statement here seems to imply that non belief wasn't or shouldn't even considered worth protecting. Why can't "freedom of" also mean, "freedom from"?
I believe that any belief or non belief is worth protecting. I don't believe in censorship of any kind, short of the currently illegal kind like child porn.
As to your question, non belief has no right to freedom from because in order to have complete freedom from, one has to infringe upon the rights of believers. No one has the right to censor expression of religious belief or non religious belief. I believe the non religious agenda is to do exactly that. I'm talking about the militant, of course, and those who are incapable of a live and let live philosophy.
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| Apr 27, 2009 @ 7:27 PM |
Ted Haggard Explains the Pleasures of Christian Sex... |
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Heaveninawildflower
Posts: 19,366
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in order to have complete freedom from, one has to infringe upon the rights of believers. No one has the right to censor expression of religious belief or non religious belief. I believe the non religious agenda is to do exactly that. I'm talking about the militant, of course, and those who are incapable of a live and let live philosophy.
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