| Jun 10, 2009 @ 8:55 PM |
SECOND CHANCE FOR SALVATION AFTER DEATH?
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Thor1960303
Posts: 3,555
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Thor, would you say that the native American's religion is "spiritualist?"
Actually, Spiritualism is a branch of Christianity that was started about the same time as Mormonism. Spiritualists believe in more of a metaphorical approach to the Bible and they believe in such things as psychic phenomena and communication with the dead. They support such beliefs with scripture.
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| Jun 10, 2009 @ 9:33 PM |
SECOND CHANCE FOR SALVATION AFTER DEATH? |
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Jankia
Posts: 12,600
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Thats true,I believe it began in the early 1800's and the Native Americans were spiritualist's long before that.
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| Jun 11, 2009 @ 5:07 AM |
SECOND CHANCE FOR SALVATION AFTER DEATH?
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southernlass
Posts: 2,969
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Sail: You asked for something to show that Jesus would support my attacks on christianity. Well here it is:
What you've quoted in your highlighted box of scripture does not support the awful things you say about Christianity here on a daily basis, Sail. You merely see what you want to see within the scripture and somehow are interpreting it in such a way that you perceive it agreeing with your heated personal attacks upon Christianity. I don't see what you're seeing or anything even close to what you're seeing within what you've highlighted in that lengthy box. I think you are seeing something that is only within your own mind and the particular dogma that you personally subscribe to, (that I have been looking into quite at length the last few evenings; I'll begin a thread about this "dogma" that you believe in soon, I assure you.)
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| Jun 11, 2009 @ 7:06 AM |
SECOND CHANCE FOR SALVATION AFTER DEATH? |
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ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 7,922
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 Good morning southernlass my friend.
Welcome to sail's world. I think upon deeper investigation, you'll find that he has embraced bits of several of the world's religions.
But the entire premise of each of those bits is not fully embraced...cannot be fully embraced. Were any of these non-Christian intricasies to be true/authentic, then the ground for some of the other points of sail-dom would not be fertile enough to still exist. There is a conflict.
he has a smattering of many different religions. These are all jumbled into one set of beliefs. his very own personalized view of the spiritual world.
Most of his beliefs do appear to be truly good. But the collection of his beliefs are not able to co-exist. 
Unlike hammertime, sd believes that such a world beyond the tangible exists. And he is fairly consistent here. I will give him that. 
Over the years, sd and myself have had several very brief times of peace, (the peace he gives the appearance of valuing so greatly.)
Yet within days, the reason for the peaceful illusion is forgotten by him.
his former self becomes evident again. Too great is the appeal. 
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| Jun 11, 2009 @ 7:57 AM |
SECOND CHANCE FOR SALVATION AFTER DEATH?
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sail_dancer
Posts: 10,205
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SL,
What you've quoted in your highlighted box of scripture does not support the awful things you say about Christianity here on a daily basis, Sail. You merely see what you want to see within the scripture and somehow are interpreting it in such a way that you perceive it agreeing with your heated personal attacks upon Christianity. I don't see what you're seeing or anything even close to what you're seeing within what you've highlighted in that lengthy box. I think you are seeing something that is only within your own mind and the particular dogma that you personally subscribe to I'm sure that the Pharisees would react exactly the same way to Jesus' teachings as you are to my post. Blind faith in a dogma doesn't make its teaching true or valid. Jesus pointed out how the jewish religion strayed from the wishes of his Father and became a religion of man not god.
You preach and teach a toxic dogma that is far from the teachings of the Master Jesus. You follow the dogma that Peter and/or Paul developed.
In the last days, Jesus was still surprised that his apostles did not understand his teachings. If they didn't understand his teachings, how, pray tell, can you rely on the BS they present in their scriptural writings and dogmatic concepts?
Christians, as the Pharisees of old, have gone astray by the teachings of man and lost the message that Jesus taught. They have completely ignored Jesus' "Gospel of the Kingdom of God" and center their beliefs on gospels of salvation that Jesus never taught.
As I have said many times, if Jesus was to return to earth and preach his "Gospel of the Kingdom of God", christians would react the same way the Pharisees reacted and would label him the anti-christ.
Think about it. Christianity has woven a dogma where god could never correct any misconceptions that dogma may have adopted. If god or Jesus were to publicly announce that a christian dogma belief was a misunderstanding, christianity would just say that god or Jesus would never contradict the scripture so the message must be a ploy of Satan or the Anti-christ.
So even god himself cannot correct any misconceptions that christian founding fathers may have had.
Does this type of belief make sense or was it adopted to protect the teachings of a false dogma?
Peace
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| Jun 11, 2009 @ 8:17 AM |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 10,205
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SOC,
But the entire premise of each of those bits is not fully embraced...cannot be fully embraced. Were any of these non-Christian intricasies to be true/authentic, then the ground for some of the other points of sail-dom would not be fertile enough to still exist. There is a conflict. If you make a statement like this ..... provide the information you are basing it on. 
Give examples of where my posts conflict in any way with each other. 
I have pointed out conflicts within christian dogma but I also provided the information I based my opinion on. You just make statements that you cannot verify. 
Most of his beliefs do appear to be truly good. But the collection of his beliefs are not able to co-exist. Examples please.
Over the years, sd and myself have had several very brief times of peace, (the peace he gives the appearance of valuing so greatly.)
Yet within days, the reason for the peaceful illusion is forgotten by him.
his former self becomes evident again. Too great is the appeal. My post are consistent. It is your reaction to them that causes you to have this opinion.
When I am in a discussion where the information I provide doesn't conflict with your beliefs, you consider it a time of peace. If however I post information that conflicts or tarnishes your dogma you consider it a personal attack. If you are going to participate in R&S discussions, stick to debating the topic and stop reacting to the posts as personal attacks. If a person posts something detrimental to your dogma, it should not be taken as a personal attack.
Peace
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| Jun 11, 2009 @ 9:37 AM |
SECOND CHANCE FOR SALVATION AFTER DEATH?
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CPUfan
Posts: 7,987
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It's not a personal attack to point out that extremists and control freaks have always used the Bible in a dogmatic way to further religious and political agendas.
This is particularly the case with the King James' Bible, which was produced on behalf of an Anglo-Scottish Protestant King. He had very good reasons for this. It was done in order to reinforce the position of what was then a heretic religion by making scripture more accessible to the lowest oiks and peasants in the United Kingdom and colonies.
The clergy of certain radical, controlling types of denominations such as Quakers and Puritans used the scripture in the King James' editions in very specific ways, selectively processing scripture in order to present the scariest case to doubters and sceptics. This is an ancient method of ideological control of local communities which goes way back to medieval times. The scarier the hell portrayed, the better.
Pointing out such extremist tactics does not amount to personal attacks. Nor does quoting other, more hopeful sources of scripture qualify as personal attacks. When this is done in opposition to noxious religious regionalism, it actually makes quite a refreshing change. 
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| Jun 11, 2009 @ 12:40 PM |
SECOND CHANCE FOR SALVATION AFTER DEATH? |
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iam01
Posts: 7,556
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One must look at each individual who assumes fanatical religious beliefs based on fictional myths and fantasy. Most have some kind of mental, cognitive and/or emotional trauma in their lives. We know for a fact that fanatical beliefs can also cause permanent neural damage. The fanatical religious are intellectually handicapped and psychologically disturbed. Many come from environments where there was abusive alcoholism, drug abuse and other kinds of abuse. They automatically gravitate to codependent relationships and embrace religion as another form of addiction to escape from reality. They are the reality challenged. For them, reality sucks.
Cheers!!!  
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| Jun 12, 2009 @ 2:29 AM |
SECOND CHANCE FOR SALVATION AFTER DEATH?
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southernlass
Posts: 2,969
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Iam: The fanatical religious are intellectually handicapped and psychologically disturbed. Many come from environments where there was abusive alcoholism, drug abuse and other kinds of abuse. They automatically gravitate to codependent relationships and embrace religion as another form of addiction to escape from reality. They are the reality challenged. For them, reality sucks.
What about the neurotic compulsive who can't stop posting, who actually plays different "characters" on the forum so that he can keep furiously posting and posting in order to lift his low self esteem and paralyzing depression, thanks to an utterly futile, empty existence, devoid of anyone or anything very meaningful. Perhaps that's why he embraces atheism/anti theism. He's incapable of true intimacy, even with God. It's easier for him to simply not believe and stay in his safe, isolated hovel.
Sail said: I'm sure that the Pharisees would react exactly the same way to Jesus' teachings as you are to my post. Blind faith in a dogma doesn't make its teaching true or valid. Jesus pointed out how the jewish religion strayed from the wishes of his Father and became a religion of man not god.
Oh, I see. So the Christians here are the Pharisees, and you who frequently states your hatred of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, is supposed to be the one who is teaching and bringing all of us the true meaning of the gospel and how to preach it even. This is good comedy, Sail. I mean, you don't even believe that Jesus is the son of God; you think he was simply a good teacher but a man nevertheless, yet you deem to dictate a more accurate, "godly" interpretation then mainstream biblical scholars and theologians. How absurd that you even suggest such a thing. It's like us asking satan to teach Sunday school.
You preach and teach a toxic dogma that is far from the teachings of the Master Jesus. You follow the dogma that Peter and/or Paul developed.
In the last days, Jesus was still surprised that his apostles did not understand his teachings. If they didn't understand his teachings, how, pray tell, can you rely on the BS they present in their scriptural writings and dogmatic concepts?
Please. We attempt to live according to all of the red words that Jesus preached. You conveniently attempt to create a dogma from the words of Jesus that you happen to agree with and leave the rest of the red words that you don't. You seem to think that the words of Peter or Paul don't apply all, but when taken together with the Bible as a whole, all of it brings forth pure spiritual truth but you prefer the tossed salad of new ageism and want Christianity to embrace it as its own.
Christians, as the Pharisees of old, have gone astray by the teachings of man and lost the message that Jesus taught. They have completely ignored Jesus' "Gospel of the Kingdom of God" and center their beliefs on gospels of salvation that Jesus never taught.
Yes, well, I've been looking into all of this "gospel of the kingdom of god" stuff that you tout so frequently. You would be amazed at what I'm finding.
As I have said many times, if Jesus was to return to earth and preach his "Gospel of the Kingdom of God", christians would react the same way the Pharisees reacted and would label him the anti-christ.
Think about it. Christianity has woven a dogma where god could never correct any misconceptions that dogma may have adopted. If god or Jesus were to publicly announce that a christian dogma belief was a misunderstanding, christianity would just say that god or Jesus would never contradict the scripture so the message must be a ploy of Satan or the Anti-christ.
No one here is arguing with teaching others about God's kingdom, but you want to create an entire doctrine around it and squeeze Jesus and His death for the sins of the world out of it, along with the salvation experience. And it's understandable why. You don't believe Jesus is the son of God, do you? You don't believe in His resurrection, do you? I wonder what Jesus thinks about that. Your "gospel of the kingdom of god" deflects away from salvation and Jesus Himself as savior, doesn't it? Convenient since the last thing you want anyone doing here is beginning a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and making Him the Lord of their life.
So even god himself cannot correct any misconceptions that christian founding fathers may have had.
Does this type of belief make sense or was it adopted to protect the teachings of a false dogma?
Speaking of false dogma, any thoughts on the topic by chance? What a concept, right?
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| Jun 12, 2009 @ 5:40 AM |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 10,205
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SL,
No one here is arguing with teaching others about God's kingdom, but you want to create an entire doctrine around it and squeeze Jesus and His death for the sins of the world out of it, along with the salvation experience. And it's understandable why. You don't believe Jesus is the son of God, do you? You don't believe in His resurrection, do you? I wonder what Jesus thinks about that. Your "gospel of the kingdom of god" deflects away from salvation and Jesus Himself as savior, doesn't it? Convenient since the last thing you want anyone doing here is beginning a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and making Him the Lord of their life. Jesus never preached a gospel of salvation or that he was god. Jesus, however, did preach that he and all of us are sons and daughters of the Father. I never said that Jesus was not the son of the father, it is a very important message that Jesus delivered. The problem is that christians in order to control people do not accept Jesus' message that we are "ALL" sons and daughters of the father.
Let's face it !
If Jesus was to return to earth, and correct any misunderstanding I may have in my beliefs ..... I would be open and accept his guidance.
You, however, would label him as the antichrist if he tried to correct your beliefs about salvation and eternal damnation.
Christianity has virtually made it impossible for god or Jesus to correct any misunderstandings in their dogma.
What a religion ! Basically it says that if god/Jesus is not in total agreement with the dogma created by Paul, Peter, John and others, that god/jesus must be a false god or an anti-christ. They would place their dogma higher than whatever their god may say.
Is this sound thinking?
Peace
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| Jun 12, 2009 @ 5:07 PM |
SECOND CHANCE FOR SALVATION AFTER DEATH?
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southernlass
Posts: 2,969
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Here is exactly what you said, Sail: SOC get this straight! A man does not have a relationship with a philosophy. And I never said I desired a relationship with a mythical diety. I said I was on a path based on Jesus' teachings.
Jesus was a great MAN not a god. He never claimed to be god and never admitted to be god. His teachings are important to people that actually follow them since he taught how a living person can find the Kingdom of God and in doing so become aware of things not easily understood otherwise.
Now, based upon the fact that you clearly don't believe that Jesus was the son of God, nor do you believe that we can be born again through Jesus Christ, nor probably any of the rest of the basics of Christianity, I'm going to submit again for your perusal scriptural evidence that Jesus Christ is God, who became man in the flesh in order that He might take on the sins of the world.
I think you're a very confused man, Sail, that basically doesn't have a clue what he believes. I've now learned to save my research, particularly scriptural research, that proves my point so that I can quote it to you again and again. Why? Because it won't even be a week since the last time and I will have to quote it to you again. You ignore rebuttals, you outright blatantly deny them. You avoid the truth because you are incapable of accepting it. You mind is eaten up by the dogma of Sail. Try to read this very slowly and attempt to understand scripture. Do not cherry pick and maul one scripture or two and attempt to make an entire doctrine around it. Scripture must be taken as a whole, not piece meal. At any rate, here it is again:
Is Jesus God? How he implied he was God:
The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple. (John 8:57-59)
"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33)
And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me does not believe in Me, but in Him who sent Me. And he who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me. I have come as light into the world, that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness." (John 12:44-46)
And so when He had washed their feet, and taken His garments, and reclined at the table again, He said to them, "Do you know what I have done to you? You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for I am. If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet." (John 13:12-14)
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father'?" (John 14:6-9)
Is Jesus God? How he described himself:
Jesus therefore said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." They said therefore to Him, "Lord, evermore give us this bread." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." (John 6:32-35)
Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life." The Pharisees therefore said to Him, "You are bearing witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true." Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true; for I know where I came from, and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from, or where I am going." (John 8:12-14)
Jesus therefore said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal, and kill, and destroy; I came that they might have life, and might have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." (John 10:7-11)
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| Jun 12, 2009 @ 5:09 PM |
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southernlass
Posts: 2,969
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Martha therefore said to Jesus, "Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You." Jesus said to her, "Your brother shall rise again." Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world." (John 11:21-27)
Is Jesus God? What he said he was sent here to do:
But Jesus called them to Himself, and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. It is not so among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." (Matthew 20:25-28)
For He was teaching His disciples and telling them, "The Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him; and when He has been killed, He will rise three days later." But they did not understand this statement, and they were afraid to ask Him. (Mark 9:31-32)
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:16-18)
"All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:37-40)
http://www.everystudent.com/wires/whodoyousay.html
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| Jun 12, 2009 @ 8:02 PM |
SECOND CHANCE FOR SALVATION AFTER DEATH?
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sail_dancer
Posts: 10,205
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SL,
Is Jesus God? How he implied he was God: Funny that the author had to settle for such a weak title.
Was it Jesus that implied this or are christians using these verses and claiming that he implied them?
I have responed to these verses many times in the past. Since you are fairly new here I will comment on them again.
The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple. (John 8:57-59) Jesus taught us that we are "all" sons and daughters of the father and one with him. Our spirits are all part of the father and as the father we have always existed in spirit.
Yes, Jesus was before Abraham since his spirit existed forever. Our spirits are just like Jesus' and also existed at the time of Abraham. This is something that would be revealed when you finf the "Kingdom of God" within as Jesus instructed.
"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33) The answer to this one is the same as the last ..... Jesus taught that we are "all" one with the father and will "all" return spiritually to the father. Jesus also taught us that we are all gods. I wonder why the author just happened to leave out the next verse:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
I have recently commented on most of the other verses so I will not do so again.
Just remember that the best christians can do is guess that Jesus in any way was implying he was God. There are many verses that strongly show Jesus denying he is god.
Peace
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| Jun 12, 2009 @ 10:04 PM |
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ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 7,922
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That's a good collection of quotes from the Bible southernlass.
But try to remember who your presentation is neant for.
Seared consciences. Words will not be enough.
2Timothy 3:14--"But as for you, continue in what you have learned and become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15--and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Jesus Christ."
Obviously not being spoken to any of the Lost Ones here. (Most of who only have a fleeting intimacy with the Holy Bible.)
But quite clearly Paul is telling Timothy of the necessity of a belief in Jesus Christ as a condition for salvation.
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| Jun 13, 2009 @ 3:52 AM |
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southernlass
Posts: 2,969
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^Yes, I see what you mean, Servant.
Sometimes it just saddens me that despite our great desire to share what we know and help people to see what we see, and the compassion within us for those who don't see, it's as if we're speaking a foreign language. They just don't understand!
Often I find this frustrating, but other times I find it just downright sad and I don't know what else to do. I've grown into a strange sort of fondness for some of the most hardcore rebellious here, despite the frequent wayward behavior... and I wish no harm to befall any of them.
Perhaps it's the non stop daily arguing with them that's brought this on. 
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| Jul 4, 2009 @ 11:13 PM |
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adonair
Posts: 14
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I think you get one second chance. That would be after the Rapture, for the 7 years before Jesus brings all his saints with him to reign on earth for the 1000 years. Of course these folks are still alive and if they can endure what is required of them, acknowledging Christ before everyone left here, that includes the antichrist, then they can be saved. Their life will be so difficult that it's not likely they will make it to the end. That's the only second chance. If they don't endure, they are destined to eternal hell
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| Jul 4, 2009 @ 11:48 PM |
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adonair
Posts: 14
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Sometimes it just saddens me that despite our great desire to share what we know and help people to see what we see, and the compassion within us for those who don't see, it's as if we're speaking a foreign language. They just don't understand!
Although I think we should still try to have them understand, do you agree that this is the reason they don't?
Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
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| Jul 4, 2009 @ 11:51 PM |
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Anaastasis
Posts: 1,434
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You get your threescore and ten..
No second chances. It's a matter of Life or Death.
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| Jul 5, 2009 @ 12:04 AM |
SECOND CHANCE FOR SALVATION AFTER DEATH?
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Anaastasis
Posts: 1,434
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How bad you think the situation is when the Church is more deceived than the world?
THERE AIN'T NO RAPTURE!
THE ANTICHRIST AIN'T COMING HE'S ALREADY HERE!
NO SECOND CHANCES, ONLY THE PAROUSIA OF CHRIST!
YALL HAVE MISSED THE BATTLE AND THE WARE TOO!
WAKE UP YOU BLIND CHRISTIANS!
WHEN THE DOOR IS SHUT THE DOOR IS SHUT!
You feel what I'm sayin'? You better go read your little King James again in the Gospels.
WHEN THE DOOR IS SHUT, IT'S SHUT!
You're either in the boat or you're not!
OUT OF THE SILENT PLANET
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOmWRSU-0rU
Yall Christians think I'm nuts. I'm showing you how apostate and ignorant you are!
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| Jul 6, 2009 @ 9:33 AM |
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Thor1960303
Posts: 3,555
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And ,look, he posts a link to a heavy metal band song to prove his point... I'm impressed. 
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