| Jul 14 @ 8:22 AM |
"Miracle" or "Ignorance of the capabilities of the heart"?
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sail_dancer
Posts: 9,866
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This was one of Yahoo's featured stories today:
British girl's heart heals itself after transplant
AP – This April 12 2006 picture shows Hannah Clark, of Cardiff Wales, who has made a full recovery after she … By MARIA CHENG, AP Medical Writer Maria Cheng, Ap Medical Writer – Tue Jul 14, 12:40 am ET
LONDON – British doctors designed a radical solution to save a girl with major heart problems in 1995: they implanted a donor heart directly onto her own failing heart.
After 10 years with two blood pumping organs, Hannah Clark's faulty one did what many experts had thought impossible: it healed itself enough so that doctors could remove the donated heart.
But she also had a price to pay: the drugs Clark took to prevent her body from rejecting the donated heart led to malignant cancer that required chemotherapy.
Details of Clark's revolutionary transplant and follow-up care were published online Tuesday in the medical journal Lancet.
"This shows that the heart can indeed repair itself if given the opportunity," said Dr. Douglas Zipes, a past president of the American College of Cardiology. Zipes was not linked to Clark's treatment or to the Lancet paper. "The heart apparently has major regenerative powers, and it is now key to find out how they work."
In 1994, when Clark was eight months old, she developed severe heart failure and doctors put her on a waiting list to get a new heart. But Clark's heart difficulties caused problems with her lungs, meaning she also needed a lung transplant.
To avoid doing a risky heart and lung transplant, doctors decided to try something completely different.
Sir Magdi Yacoub of Imperial College London, one of the world's top heart surgeons, said that if Clark's heart was given a time-out, it might be able to recover on its own. So in 1995 Yacoub and others grafted a donor heart from a 5-month-old directly onto Clark's own heart.
After four and a half years, both hearts were working fine, so Yacoub and colleagues decided not to take out the extra heart.
The powerful drugs Clark was taking to prevent her from rejecting the donor heart then caused cancer, which led to chemotherapy. Even when doctors lowered the doses of drugs to suppress Clark's immune system, the cancer spread, and Clark's body eventually rejected the donor heart.
Luckily, by that time, Clark's own heart seemed to have fully recovered. In February 2006, Dr. Victor Tsang of Great Ormond Street Hospital in London, Yacoub and other doctors removed Clark's donor heart.
Since then, Clark — now 16 years old — has started playing sports, gotten a part-time job, and plans to go back to school in September.
"Thanks to this operation, I've now got a normal life just like all of my friends," said Clark, who lives near Cardiff.
Her parents marveled at her recovery, and said that at one point during Clark's illness, they were told she would be dead within 12 hours.
Miguel Uva, chairman of the European Society of Cardiology's group on cardiovascular surgery, called Clark's case "a miracle," adding that it was rare for patients' hearts to simply get better on their own.
"We have no way of knowing which patients will recover and which ones won't," Uva said.
Still, transplants like Clark's won't be widely available to others due to a shortage of donor hearts and because the necessary surgeries are very complicated. In the last few years, artificial hearts also have been developed that can buy patients the time needed to get a transplant or even for their own heart to recover.
Zipes said if doctors can figure out how Clark's heart healed itself and develop a treatment from that mechanism, many other cardiac patients could benefit.
At the moment, doctors aren't sure how that regeneration happens. Some think there are a small number of stem cells in the heart, which may somehow be triggered in crisis situations to heal damaged tissue.
Experts said Clark's example is encouraging both to doctors and patients.
"It reminds us that not all heart failure is lethal," said Dr. Ileana Pina, a heart failure expert at Case Western Reserve University and spokeswoman for the American Heart Association. "Some heart failure patients have a greater chance of recovery than we thought." Yahoo's header for this story was: Girl's heart heals itself
For 10 years Hannah Clark lived with two hearts beating inside her, but then "a miracle" occurred. Notice how "miracle' is stressed in the heading, yet when you read the article, the doctor was obviously using the word miracle to indicate a rare happening that needs research to explain rather than a "miracle from god".
What is your opinion on how the word "miracle" is used?
If you use the word "miracle", what exactly are you trying to communicate?
Peace
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| Jul 14 @ 8:33 AM |
"Miracle" or "Ignorance of the capabilities of the heart"? |
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Banned_Knots
Posts: 1,125
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No such thing as miracles on the premise that anything and everything in existence is the result cause from and action that created it. When an action occurs there is always a consequence.
A healing heart comes about because of the actions taken to help create the condition whereby it can heal itself.
No miracles, just the right actions for the positive outcome.
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| Jul 14 @ 8:33 AM |
"Miracle" or "Ignorance of the capabilities of the heart"?
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iam01
Posts: 6,283
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At the moment, doctors aren't sure how that regeneration happens. Some think there are a small number of stem cells in the heart, which may somehow be triggered in crisis situations to heal damaged tissue. Stem cell research has lead to using therapies that allow patients to grow their own bypasses. Instead of opening their chests, they get an injection. Who can we thank for holding up stem cell research in the US?
What is your opinion on how the word "miracle" is used? Its a casual expression, nothing more. It just means, "I don't understand what happened". Medicine is not an all knowing science. When they ran across acupuncture some decades ago, they didn't know how it worked and called it a fraud. Yet acupuncture did work and was used throughout China for thousands of years. So anyone might call acupuncture a miracle because open heart surgery can be done without anesthesia.
p.s. Welcome back Sail....
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| Jul 14 @ 9:43 AM |
"Miracle" or "Ignorance of the capabilities of the heart"? |
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Deborah551
Posts: 1,019
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Miguel Uva, chairman of the European Society of Cardiology's group on cardiovascular surgery, called Clark's case "a miracle," adding that it was rare for patients' hearts to simply get better on their own.
This is the only place in the article I see the word miracle used. I'm glad about that, since the word miracle is used so much it's become like any other word that is misused or over used.
Most people really don't know what the word miracle means.They think the normal birth of a baby is a miracle. A drunk who walks away from a horrific accident is a miracle. People who miss a plane that later crashes are miracles. These are everday occurances, yet people call them miracles because they don't know any other words to describe them.
A miracle can be described as an event that is outside of normal laws that rule the world. Many things we once thought of as miraculous are now everyday events. The telephone, automobile, space travel, medical advances were thought of as miracles when they were first produced or discovered.
A real miracle would be the girl growing a new heart, not a Dr. placing it in her chest. A real miracle would be a man growing a new leg, not a Dr. putting a new one on his body. If there is any human intervention then it's not a miracle. It might be amazing and wonderful, but it's not a miracle.
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| Jul 14 @ 9:55 AM |
"Miracle" or "Ignorance of the capabilities of the heart"?
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iam01
Posts: 6,283
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A real miracle would be the girl growing a new heart, not a Dr. placing it in her chest. A real miracle would be a man growing a new leg, And thats exactly what stem cell research and cloning promises to do. No wonder the religious fanatics fight against any kind of medical progress. They don't want anyone doing a much better job than their unemployed god.
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| Jul 14 @ 10:14 AM |
"Miracle" or "Ignorance of the capabilities of the heart"? |
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Heaveninawildflower
Posts: 18,615
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The telephone, automobile, space travel, medical advances were thought of as miracles when they were first produced or discovered.
You can add aspirin to that list, as well as moldy bread that became penicillin.
A miracle is a supernatural occurrence. A supernatural occurrence is something that we don't yet understand - lightning was once considered supernatural, earthquakes and windstorms and infestations of locusts too. People prayed and offered up sacrifices to the gods to protect them...some in fact still do.
Apparently nobody's set up special prayer sessions for this girl or anything like that, or at least they're not claiming they did...for every 'miracle' there's somebody out there who's had extraordinarily bad luck. There's a lady who's won over 150K in scratch off lottery tickets, but I'm sure there are a lot more who've never won more than a couple of bucks, and there might even be one or two who've played plenty and never won yet.
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| Jul 14 @ 10:39 AM |
"Miracle" or "Ignorance of the capabilities of the heart"?
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CPUfan
Posts: 7,983
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I guess stem cell research will discover whether all or any organs can be regenerated...  
It has been established that in certain conditions, direct stem cell application can restore the severed spines and spinal cords of mice, leading to the normal use of their legs. Their backs are a bit wonky but they can run again !
Maybe we should try three blind mice next time, to see how they run?
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| Jul 15 @ 12:09 PM |
"Miracle" or "Ignorance of the capabilities of the heart"? |
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iam01
Posts: 6,283
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Another miracle...
Chihuahua Survives 3 Days With BBQ Fork in Brain
>here<
"His nerve endings around the eye still seem to be a little slow but I think that will heal over time," said Smith. "He really is a little miracle."
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| Jul 15 @ 12:14 PM |
"Miracle" or "Ignorance of the capabilities of the heart"?
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Thor1960303
Posts: 3,345
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A miracle is a supernatural occurrence. A supernatural occurrence is something that we don't yet understand - lightning was once considered supernatural, earthquakes and windstorms and infestations of locusts too.
Actually the term "supernatural" is a misnomer. There is no such thing. There is only natural and to imply otherwise would be to infer that the laws of physics can be violated. They cannot.
When something is unexplained it is merely that...unexplained. It doesn't mean that the laws of physics were violated in order to make an unexplained event happen.
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| Jul 15 @ 6:47 PM |
"Miracle" or "Ignorance of the capabilities of the heart"? |
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Bj864
Posts: 3,964
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When something is unexplained it is merely that...unexplained. It doesn't mean that the laws of physics were violated in order to make an unexplained event happen.
I do not believe that the laws of physics have anything to do with the spiritual world.
I do think the spiritual self uses the physical world to exist on this plane, but I do not think the spirit needs the physical world to exists.
I think miracles can happen.
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| Jul 15 @ 8:14 PM |
"Miracle" or "Ignorance of the capabilities of the heart"?
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Deborah551
Posts: 1,019
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Chihuahua Survives 3 Days With BBQ Fork in Brain
I read that story this morning and I almost cried. I felt so sorry for the poor little guy and he was so cute. I hope he'll be okay.
Years ago I decided to count how many times I heard the word miracle in a day. I counted over 50 times, but that was when I was watching christian TV and listening to religious radio shows. But, the point is, the word miracle is used so much that it no longer means anything. Same as when everyone claims to be a victim and that when a real victim comes along, you don't believe them.
[Edited on 7/15/2009 8:22 PM]
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| Jul 15 @ 8:43 PM |
"Miracle" or "Ignorance of the capabilities of the heart"? |
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Jankia
Posts: 11,909
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Interesting questions sail.
Thor said it well...
When something is unexplained it is merely that...unexplained. It doesn't mean that the laws of physics were violated in order to make an unexplained event happen.
Thats why we can have miracles in anything but what is a miracle to one person isnt to another.
When two people meet and become short term temporary friends when they are children,never see each other for fifty years and after they do,they both admit to having love for the other all those years,its an accomplishment thats unexplainable to anyone but them.
That to me is a miracle.
My full recovery in health that was unexpalinable by the medical staff wasnt really a miracle to me but it was to my mom.
Miracles can be made by anyone..including God. 
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| Jul 15 @ 9:37 PM |
"Miracle" or "Ignorance of the capabilities of the heart"?
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sealacamp
Posts: 3,681
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No such thing as miracles on the premise that anything and everything in existence is the result cause from and action that created it. When an action occurs there is always a consequence.
Such a limited and narrow view. There are millions of substantiated events through out history that supersede what is considered natural courses of events. That by definition makes them supernatural and qualifies these events as miracles. When an action occurs there is not "always" a consequence. Rather when an action occurs there is usually a reaction but not necessarily one that is predictable within the confines of what is considered "normal" or "natural".
S
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| Jul 16 @ 12:00 PM |
"Miracle" or "Ignorance of the capabilities of the heart"? |
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iam01
Posts: 6,283
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There are millions of substantiated events through out history that supersede what is considered natural courses of events. That by definition makes them supernatural and qualifies these events as miracles For example ? Since there are millions why not post the first 500. 
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| Jul 17 @ 10:13 AM |
"Miracle" or "Ignorance of the capabilities of the heart"?
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Thor1960303
Posts: 3,345
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What is your opinion on how the word "miracle" is used?
The word is much like the term, "supernatural" or "paranormal". There is no such thing, only what we don't yet understand.
When I hear the word "miracle" used by medical professionals, I get leary. In my experience such a word is used when someone in the chain of medical events screwed up and despite that, the patient lived. Since the family is usually ignorant of medical porcedures and physiology, if they have religious beliefs, they can accept a "miracle" and the real fault goes hidden. I saw this happen back in 1995 with my aunt. The "M" word worked on everyone in the immediate family accept myself and my skeptical shrink cousin, who believes to this day someone accidently gave her the wrong medication and thus had to scramble to save her life and then fell back on the , "It's a miracle" explanation.
Miracles in the medical profession are many times feux pas that are covered with sleight of hand and good PR. That's my experience anyway.
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| Jul 17 @ 10:41 AM |
"Miracle" or "Ignorance of the capabilities of the heart"? |
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iam01
Posts: 6,283
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I sometimes say "God bless you" to people who sneeze and I know that expression comes from the superstition that you lose your soul from a sneeze. Its just part of our cultural influence we take for granted. I know its a superstition but it seems harmless enough. From another point of view, its not harmless in the sense it perpetuates the superstition. I don't think most people know what the superstition is however. I say it because its seems so polite to say "God bless you" to perfect strangers across a room. Its kind of fun. One might even sneeze deliberately to hear people say it and use it as excuse to get acquainted and make conversation. I very often shorten to "bless you" because I could still personally bless people and leave God out of it. In fact, I think the personal blessing is much better because its personally from you, not a mythical magical being.
Words and expressions like "miracle", "god only knows", "god bless you", "in god's hands", and "goddamit" are cliches. For religious fanatics however, they're real things. I'm sure they get upset when you use them as cliches. Thats fun too.
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| Jul 17 @ 10:51 AM |
"Miracle" or "Ignorance of the capabilities of the heart"?
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Thor1960303
Posts: 3,345
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I sometimes say "God bless you" to people who sneeze and I know that expression comes from the superstition that you lose your soul from a sneeze.
As one who suffers allergies and sinus trouble, I've found that the soul looks a lot like dirty mucous. 
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| Jul 17 @ 11:01 AM |
"Miracle" or "Ignorance of the capabilities of the heart"? |
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iam01
Posts: 6,283
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You know, that sounds like a joke but medical thought in medieval times placed a lot of significance on stuff called "humors" which are the fluids of the body. So maybe that might be part of how that got all started.
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| Jul 17 @ 9:37 PM |
"Miracle" or "Ignorance of the capabilities of the heart"?
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Deborah551
Posts: 1,019
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For example ? Since there are millions why not post the first 500. Many years ago I wrote to Benny Hinn asking him for proof of a miracle. I used the criteria set forth by James Randi on his website and books for proof that a miracle really took place.One of the criteria was that a medical Dr. had to confirm that the person really had the disease he/she claimed to have. Anyone can go to Hinn and claim they have a disease and are "healed". Another criteria was that the healed person couldn't have an operation or take drugs of any kind before the healing All I got from Hinn was a letter begging me for money. The jerk didn't even try to prove that one of his "miracles" really happened.
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| Jul 18 @ 1:19 PM |
"Miracle" or "Ignorance of the capabilities of the heart"? |
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Thor1960303
Posts: 3,345
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All I got from Hinn was a letter begging me for money. The jerk didn't even try to prove that one of his "miracles" really happened.
Welcome to the world of corporate Christianity.
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