| Aug 6 @ 7:23 AM |
"Salvation" - Is accepting Jesus as god and savior required?
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sail_dancer
Posts: 9,866
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Donna Kaplan asks:
I have a question about the scripture passage from St. John's Gospel that you quoted recently in one of your columns: "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by me (meaning Jesus)." What about the Jews?
Dear Donna,
There are several levels on which an answer to your question must be contemplated:
1. Did Jesus actually say these words? I doubt it. They appear in the Fourth Gospel, which was written 65-70 years after the death of Jesus. They are also part of a series of "I Am" sayings, which appear nowhere except in John and are regarded by most biblical scholars today as the words of the Christian community that have been placed onto the lips of Jesus. They are clearly not the words of the Jesus of history. The scholars in the Jesus Seminar regard nothing in the Fourth Gospel, not a single one of the sayings attributed to Jesus in that gospel, to be the authentic words of the Jesus of history.
2. Most of the Christians at the time that John's gospel was written were still Jews. The Jews who were the followers of Jesus had just been expelled from the Synagogue. The tensions between Revisionist Jews, who were also disciples of Jesus, and the Orthodox Jews who controlled the Temple are in the background of this gospel.
3. These words were certainly not meant to fuel an imperialistic missionary campaign to convert Jews and others as they were interpreted by later generations of Christians. The actual split between the Jews who were disciples of Jesus and the Orthodox Party of traditional Jews did not occur until almost 60 years after the crucifixion. That is, for the first 60 years of Christian history, Christianity was itself a Jewish movement within in the synagogue.
4. At this moment, I am reading Rudolf Bultmann's The Gospel of John: A Commentary. He argues, persuasively I believe, that John portrays Jesus as the logos enfleshed in human life, calling us all to a deeper sense of what it means to be whole and human. To come to the God present in Jesus for John was to discover the logos in each of us. That, argues Bultmann, is what Jesus represented to the people of his day. It was that discovery, not some form of doctrinal Christian belief or faith that was for John the only doorway into the ultimate reality we call God. That is quite different from saying that only those that believe in what Christianity says about Jesus will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Recall that in Matthew's parable of the judgment (Mt. chapter 25), Jesus says the criterion for eternal life is not what you believe but how you respond to the presence of God in another human being, especially those regarded as the least of our brothers and sisters. In that parable neither the sheep nor the goats are ever asked what creed they say. They are asked "did you see and respond to the presence of God in another human being." It was the Epistle of John that states that if you cannot love your neighbor whom you have seen, how can you expect to love God whom you have not seen?
Those who quote John's gospel to validate their own exclusive religious prejudices simply have no idea what John's Gospel is about. This Gospel does not lend itself to proof texting. It is far too profound a work for that.
– John Shelby Spong
Here is the scripture from the gospel of Matthew that Spong referenced: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Continued
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| Aug 6 @ 7:24 AM |
"Salvation" - Is accepting Jesus as god and savior required? |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 9,866
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So does Bishop Spong have a valid point that the earlier gospel of Matthew does not require accepting Jesus as a savior for salvation?
There are many other quotes attributed to Jesus that also fail to require this christian belief.
Let’s discuss.
Peace
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| Aug 6 @ 9:39 AM |
"Salvation" - Is accepting Jesus as god and savior required?
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Merchitown
Posts: 6,130
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I'm sorry, Sail, I had started another thread with this same theme in mind and I got discussed out and just plain frustrated. Better luck with yours!
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| Aug 6 @ 9:51 AM |
"Salvation" - Is accepting Jesus as god and savior required? |
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southernlass
Posts: 2,240
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I couldn't help but notice that it's yet ANOTHER thread talking about God/Jesus/and Christian salvation.
With Heretic Bishop Spong, no less. Where's the gagging emoticon? 
I'll give Sail a break. He's been gone. He's entitled to obsess over us and our religion for a little, but sheesh! When do you people ever talk about and think about your own spirituality and what you all believe? Why does it always come back to CHRIST and CHRISTIANS for all of you.
Don't you see how freaking weird that is?
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| Aug 6 @ 10:05 AM |
"Salvation" - Is accepting Jesus as god and savior required?
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iam01
Posts: 6,283
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Bishop Spong had about 15 death threats so far. Do you want him dead too? Aren't heretics supposed to be put to death?
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| Aug 6 @ 10:12 AM |
"Salvation" - Is accepting Jesus as god and savior required? |
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iam01
Posts: 6,283
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"Salvation" - Is accepting Jesus as god and savior required? Its not necessary to read scripture to know the answer is NO because other religions don't believe in scapegoats but instead take personal responsibly, like grown ups, for themselves. This is why the Abrahmic religions, especially Christianity and Islam breed immature psychopathic killers and megalomaniacs. The Jews have a better handle on things for the most part. They were the originators of these myths and know much of it, as Lewis Black says, is bullshit. Of course, there are lunatic Jews who flip out if you whistle on the sabbath or gather sticks. They're just as mentally ill as the other 2 death cults.
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| Aug 6 @ 10:51 AM |
"Salvation" - Is accepting Jesus as god and savior required?
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alivenwell351
Posts: 3,040
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I find it pretty telling that Sail presents a very detailed writing about a specific point. A point that, if wrong, should easily be debunked by any true christian with biblical knowledge enough to actually refute Bishop Spong's thoughts.
Yet, the best the current queen of the local god squad can come up with is labeling the good bishop a heretic and labeling a concept conflicting with her obviously limited knowledge of scripture and her very tunnel visioned view of what she does think she knows of it, as just "ANOTHER thread talking about God/Jesus/and Christian salvation".
Now THAT'S freaking weird!! But I guess that's what happens when you're not saying Amen!!
Of the many biblical things I came to see as contradictory, conflicting, and out & out myths back as I made my conversion from believer to heathen, this one is at the top of the list.
The christian god (a loving, giving, and fair & just god!) would create such a diverse place as earth, and fill with such an abundance of different forms of life, including many variations of humans, give humans so many different paths to walk, and on top of it all give humans this "free will" thing, presumably to pick and chose for themselves what to embrace from among the many options, both physical and thought wise....but then tell them that in order to get into heaven, despite all the variations they will encounter, they MUST do this one, very defined, very necessary thing.
And then on top of that, they can live the most evil, criminal, terrible life on earth, but if they do this one little thing before taking their last breath, all is forgiven and they are in. While others, who may have lived an exemplary life on earth but in using their godgiven free will, chose not to buy into the christian myth, or chose to follow another religious path, and those who never had a chance to be christian believers because they were never exposed to it in the first place, will suffer eternal damnation for not doing the JC loyalty thing!!
Ummm....sure...OK.
[Edited on 8/6/2009 10:56 AM]
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| Aug 6 @ 10:54 AM |
"Salvation" - Is accepting Jesus as god and savior required? |
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,267
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What do you expect from those who coined the term. "It is written". 
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| Aug 6 @ 11:18 AM |
"Salvation" - Is accepting Jesus as god and savior required?
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CPUfan
Posts: 7,983
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Personally I'm not worried about being sent to hell. If we can behave as badly as we like down there, I'll start by knocking out a couple of Satan's teeth.  If I get a shot at Hitler,  I might even have a chance of taking over the whole show. I mean, what can they do to you, you're dead already, right? And so are they... If everyone I know is down there, I think we're in with a chance...   Satan, who the hell is he?? 
"Right, we gotta big flameout on our hands... Enemy's already dead... let's kick their tired, ugly arses right out of hell..." 
Best way to improve hell would be to send a few thousand English soccer fans down there... Soon have the place sorted and in order.  
In all seriousness and with all due respect to your research Sail, I think it's clear that everyone was a heretic at some point or other - and that the first Christians were Jews. Isn't that also true of Jesus, anyway? I seem to remember some Nazi propaganda about Jesus being a Jew and the bible being a Jewish bible... 
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| Aug 6 @ 11:30 AM |
"Salvation" - Is accepting Jesus as god and savior required? |
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iam01
Posts: 6,283
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What do you expect from those who coined the term. "It is written". Well nothing's been written by you in a long time. Welcome back!
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| Aug 6 @ 12:26 PM |
"Salvation" - Is accepting Jesus as god and savior required?
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iam01
Posts: 6,283
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I find it pretty telling that Sail presents a very detailed writing about a specific point. A point that, if wrong, should easily be debunked by any true christian with biblical knowledge enough to actually refute Bishop Spong's thoughts.
Yet, the best the current queen of the local god squad can come up with is labeling the good bishop a heretic and labeling a concept conflicting with her obviously limited knowledge of scripture and her very tunnel visioned view of what she does think she knows of it, as just "ANOTHER thread talking about God/Jesus/and Christian salvation".
I couldn't have said it better myself 
You see, there is no debate with dogma. It is what they do and is taught in the CRASH COURSE: HOW-TO BE A CHRISTIAN
For example
# Use arguments that make no sense and then say "You just don't understand."
# When given a Bible verse that looks bad just say that's not what it means.
# Argue that the Bible stories are all true and written by God.
# Tell them only a Christian can understand the Bible because they are guided by the Holy Spirit
and to avoid answering or addressing anything in the OP or direct questions just send up a smoke screen with some religious rants:
# To avoid a debate, change the subject or complain about militant atheists trying to destroy your religion.
# Blame everything wrong in society on evolution, atheism, ACLU, and homosexuals.
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| Aug 6 @ 2:22 PM |
"Salvation" - Is accepting Jesus as god and savior required? |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 9,866
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In all seriousness and with all due respect to your research Sail, I think it's clear that everyone was a heretic at some point or other - and that the first Christians were Jews. Isn't that also true of Jesus, anyway? That is exactly the point. Jesus was a Jew and his teachings should be looked at with this fact in mind.
Peace
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| Aug 6 @ 2:27 PM |
"Salvation" - Is accepting Jesus as god and savior required?
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alivenwell351
Posts: 3,040
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I suppose Rev. Barry Lynn would be considered a heretic too...
I mean what's an ordained minister/lawyer doing strongly advocating ironclad separation of church & state??.....
Why that's....that's.....fair to ALL!!
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| Aug 6 @ 3:15 PM |
"Salvation" - Is accepting Jesus as god and savior required? |
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Merchitown
Posts: 6,130
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I'll give Sail a break. He's been gone. He's entitled to obsess over us and our religion for a little, but sheesh! When do you people ever talk about and think about your own spirituality and what you all believe? Why does it always come back to CHRIST and CHRISTIANS for all of you.
Why...thanks for implying I'm not a Christian. 
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| Aug 6 @ 7:40 PM |
"Salvation" - Is accepting Jesus as god and savior required?
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ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 7,441
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Sorry Merch, but maybe it's got something to do with how blurry your testimony is.
In southernlass' defense, I didn't know until just now that you considered yoursef to be a Christian either.
Be honest about it. Although I haven't seen you posting the hate-filled sort of trash of some of the others in this forum. You don't exactly seem overflowing with love for the Saviour either.
But I'm glad this came to my attention. 
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| Aug 6 @ 7:45 PM |
"Salvation" - Is accepting Jesus as god and savior required? |
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ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 7,441
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And Merchitown, I just looked at your description...
Where are you hiding that particular tidbit of information??
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| Aug 6 @ 8:13 PM |
"Salvation" - Is accepting Jesus as god and savior required?
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BandTMom
Posts: 38,061
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OMG!
Merch has talked about her Methodist background and her pastor parents numerous times here.
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| Aug 6 @ 8:53 PM |
"Salvation" - Is accepting Jesus as god and savior required? |
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iam01
Posts: 6,283
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I was born in a Methodist hospital by a Jewish doctor who looked like Lorne Greene. That's the extent of my Methodist background.
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| Aug 6 @ 9:23 PM |
"Salvation" - Is accepting Jesus as god and savior required?
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Merchitown
Posts: 6,130
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LOL Iam.
I have a different viewpoint on Christianity, but it doesn't mean that I'm not. I think by your definition of Christianity, I am not Christian.
I just happen to think we're not the only ones who got it right...and frankly I think in getting it right, alot of Christians seem to be shooting themselves in the foot. It takes all kinds to make a world.
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| Aug 6 @ 10:36 PM |
"Salvation" - Is accepting Jesus as god and savior required? |
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southernlass
Posts: 2,240
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Yet, the best the current queen of the local god squad can come up with is labeling the good bishop a heretic and labeling a concept conflicting with her obviously limited knowledge of scripture and her very tunnel visioned view of what she does think she knows of it, as just "ANOTHER thread talking about God/Jesus/and Christian salvation".
I don't waste my time expending much effort in this forum anymore, Alive. It's not worth the time or trouble to refute or argue with people who just enjoy arguing for the sake of insulting others, not to actually learn anything or actually consider the other person's point of view. See, I'm learning that. It's taken me a little while to understand that the majority of the people who participate here are simply out to vent, insinuate or just outright babble nasty, hateful anti-religious rhetoric at "the other side," and they have absolutely no intention of altering their opinions.
I don't desire to bother anymore, at least I don't for now. I pop in here to visit with SOC, Seal, Jankia, BJ, and the other people on my friends list. Oh, and I do enjoy the blogs. I also pop into politics some now and then, but it's pretty much the same over there too. Not much point to discuss too much of anything.
I'm much more inclined toward a forum where people are capable of discussion without the neverending need to slur others; it's just not necessary when there is a certain intellect present within the participants that is confident, secure in what they believe, and thus has no reason to put others down or prove anything. It's possible to really exchange thought in that kind of an environment and learn from one another, and that kind of environment is not possible here, unless you're a non religious individual that thinks the way that everyone else (the majority) want you to think.
Anyway, as to the topic of what Bishop Spong thinks, the Catholic church and his own kind call him a heretic. These are not my words. When I researched Spong after Yash was quoting him in these forums daily, I found out all I needed to know about his reputation; it's rather easy to find out the same by merely googling his name and reading. There are lots of Catholic brothers who think he's half nuts.
And, in my opinion, the title of the thread is outright blasphemy and belief in this notion is a one way ticket straight to hell, so no, I'm not interested in exploring the topic further. My mind is firmly closed and isn't open even a hair's width when it comes to the salvation of Jesus Christ.
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