| Aug 7, 2009 @ 8:30 AM |
Subtle Wisdom
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ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 7,935
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Each of us experience times in our lives when we are forced to make great decisions. Decisions that affect the route we are to journey through life on.
Todays devotional from Our Daily Bread addresses this.
"When I was in college, my co-worker Bud, a fork-truck driver, often enriched my life with his pithy wisdom. We were eating lunch one day, sitting on the back of his fork-truck, when I announed that I was transferring to another school.
'Why?' he asked.
'All my friends are transferring', I answered.
Bud chewed his sandwich for a moment and then replied quietly and with subtle irony. 'I guess that's one way to pick a school.'
His words struck me with rare force. Of course, I thought. But is this the only way to choose a school? Will I follow my friends for the rest of my days, or will I follow Jesus? Will I seek His face and His will and go where He wants me to go?
Twenty-five times in the New Testament, Jesus said to His disciples, 'Follow me.' In Mark 8:34, He said, 'Whoever desires to come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.' No matter what others do or what direction their lives may take, we must do what He asks us to do.
The words of an old song come to mind: 'My Lord knows the way through the wilderness; and all I have to do is follow!'--David Roper
As I walk along God's pathway,
Though the way I cannot see,
I shall follow in Christ's footsteps,
For He has a plan for me.--Thiesen
To find your way through life, follow Jesus.
Mark 8:34-38--'Then He called the crowd to Him along with His disciples and said, 'If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up the cross and follow me. 35--For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for the gospel will save it. 36--What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul? 37--Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? 38--If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in His Father's glory with the Holy angels.' "
None of us may actually face the decision to follow Jesus or else choose death. Yet even though no great crisis involving our safety might arise, I think that what these words are meant to say to us, is that nothing should be more important to us than our love for Jesus Christ.
We should never deny Him. No matter what.
I think He is telling us that our desire to be obedient to His teachings, should be the most important guidance we should live by.
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| Aug 7, 2009 @ 9:24 AM |
Subtle Wisdom |
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iam01
Posts: 7,558
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We must look at the Subtle Stupidity of Our Daily Delusion because Jesus said
Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple and he also said
John 6
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
So you have to hate everyone and then engage in cannibalism.
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| Aug 7, 2009 @ 9:33 AM |
Subtle Wisdom
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ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 7,935
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I am sorry. I did not realize that people armed with guns frequently entered whenever you are when you acess MatchDoctor and forced you to look at everything presented here. 
(But let me make a suggestion...Just turn your head in the direction of the monitor but keep your eyes closed.  )
Once again your response smacks of great wisdom and maturity.
Thank you so much. 
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| Aug 7, 2009 @ 10:42 AM |
Subtle Wisdom |
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yashaenka
Posts: 10,289
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SOC you continue to expound upon the sayings of Jesus as if you have actual proof that he wrote the words cited. But it is a well know fact Jesus along with the Buddha never wrote anything.
All you are citing is hearsay. All that MMLJ say about him is hearsay and those writings were in 70-90AD long after he supposedly existed.
So who wrote the bible?
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| Aug 7, 2009 @ 11:04 AM |
Subtle Wisdom
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SweetNapaGuy
Posts: 9,097
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Yashaenka, the ancient Jewish peoples had some of the highest literacy rates in the world. Is it so hard to believe that, of his thousands of followers, someone could have written down what he said? There is some belief that the "letters in red" in the Gospels was the result of a manuscript that had been circulating for decades, following the death of Jesus/Joshua. Since they had the same manuscript to draw upon, they had a decent starting place for their testimony.
Now, were all of the sayings from Jesus/Joshua? Who knows? There was a tendency in those days (and even today) to attribute wise sayings to important personages, both to raise the esteem for the famous person, and to draw upon their authority in making the saying seem stronger.
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| Aug 7, 2009 @ 11:07 AM |
Subtle Wisdom |
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iam01
Posts: 7,558
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There is no historicity of Jesus yet there were plenty of writers at the time. What that means is that either Jesus was not really newsworthy or simply an embellished myth as so many man-gods were at the time. Of course, SOC has direct evidence, Jesus spoke to him kind of like this guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKGtcVoBhBQ
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| Aug 7, 2009 @ 11:12 AM |
Subtle Wisdom
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yashaenka
Posts: 10,289
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Yashaenka, the ancient Jewish peoples had some of the highest literacy rates in the world. Is it so hard to believe that, of his thousands of followers, someone could have written down what he said?
It is still hearsay as even in MMLJ they differ as to what is said and there is no evidence that MMLJ ever met him or knew him. So they had to be repeating the words of others... 
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| Aug 7, 2009 @ 11:19 AM |
Subtle Wisdom |
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SweetNapaGuy
Posts: 9,097
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I believe there is differences in events, but not so much difference in words...? (I took a course in Religious Studies, when I was attempting to get that as a minor with my degree. Yikes, that class was nuts! Only class I've ever been where I got an 88%... and almost flunked! Damn "grading on a curve"!!! The "A's" ended at 98%, sheesh!)
At the time I took the class (admittedly, 1990...), they said that there is some evidence that, based on the similarity of the texts (i.e., Jesus's words), there was one or possibly two manuscripts of Jesus's sayings circulating. (Granted, they could all have cribbed off of Mark's work, but...)
As for Jesus, he was one of dozens of "prophets" running around. It hadn't been all that long since the Romans took over the country, and people were searching for answers. So one prophet/revolutionary was executed and there was no special mention of him? Well, I wonder how many dozens more of them got killed over the two decades surrounding his ministry?
But yeah. There's nothing written in Jesus's own handwriting. And he didn't dictate any of his ministry. But that doesn't mean someone didn't write it down. (And that doesn't mean that, whomever it was who wrote the manuscript of his sayings, might have combined his sayings with the sayings of the other prophets of that era... Just look at the Old Testament, some of the books had a half-dozen authors, but they're ascribed to someone famous. Why should the "sayings of Jesus" be any different?)
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| Aug 7, 2009 @ 11:29 AM |
Subtle Wisdom
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iam01
Posts: 7,558
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Whether Jesus said anything or not, whether he existed or not is immaterial if we can still look at "what is written" and determine much of it is ridiculous on its own merits. Some of it is nice too and might be fitting for a Hallmark greeting card but nothing is very original or deep.
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| Aug 7, 2009 @ 11:32 AM |
Subtle Wisdom |
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SweetNapaGuy
Posts: 9,097
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It may be a mish-mash of prior ideas, but it IS an interesting philosophy. If people only take away the love and tolerance and acceptance, would the world be such a bad place?
It's the stuff that got added on AFTER Jesus spoke (or whatever mixture of prophets, myths, and so on) that twisted the simple yet beautiful message...
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| Aug 7, 2009 @ 11:48 AM |
Subtle Wisdom
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iam01
Posts: 7,558
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If people only take away the love and tolerance and acceptance, would the world be such a bad place? Well, not when that mish mash includes Jesus telling you to sell everything you own, hate your mother and father, sister and brother and then to eat his flesh and drink his blood. Some wisdom... 
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| Aug 7, 2009 @ 12:15 PM |
Subtle Wisdom |
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ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 7,935
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I hear so often that you are a really smart guy hammertime. Yet you allow your mind to remain lazy in anything dealing with Christianity.
Your initial intellectual action is to accept what other people tell you about the personhood of Jesus Christ, and that it is a work of fiction.
Others have concluded that He must be a fictional character because He doesn't fit into any other description of an individual composed of flesh + blood.
In all your worldly experience, (which admittedly is greater than my own), you have never come across any other examples resembling the awesome characteristics He is attributed as having.
Is basing any conclusions of a complex component of reality on such flimsy evidence, the mark of a wise mind?
Is it through such extensive experience that a person forms realistic conclusions about anything??
Another thing I have seen up until now, is that it seems all the Christians have abandoned me on this thread. Thank you though NapaGuy. Perhaps you weren't rushing in support of SOC or Christianity, but your words were still appreciated. )
[Edited on 8/7/2009 12:20 PM]
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| Aug 7, 2009 @ 12:19 PM |
Subtle Wisdom
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iam01
Posts: 7,558
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SOC,
are you on meds at all?
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| Aug 7, 2009 @ 12:21 PM |
Subtle Wisdom |
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ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 7,935
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No. Are you?
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| Aug 7, 2009 @ 12:27 PM |
Subtle Wisdom
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iam01
Posts: 7,558
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You're incoherent. Do you know what lobes on you were affected? Did you actually read what Napa wrote?
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| Aug 7, 2009 @ 1:33 PM |
Subtle Wisdom |
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iam01
Posts: 7,558
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SOC,
You often ramble nonsense, avoid questions and then run off to hide. Have you understood what Napa wrote? Did you answer Yash's question?
Yash wrote
All you are citing is hearsay. All that MMLJ say about him is hearsay and those writings were in 70-90AD long after he supposedly existed.
So who wrote the bible?
Napa wrote..
Now, were all of the sayings from Jesus/Joshua? Who knows? There was a tendency in those days (and even today) to attribute wise sayings to important personages, both to raise the esteem for the famous person, and to draw upon their authority in making the saying seem stronger.
Do you know what Napa is talking about? Did you ever see the NT say "according to". The technical term Napa is referring to is called Pseudepigrapha. Pseudepigrapha was a tradition where writers would ascribe their writing to someone already famous from the past. Pseudepigraphy was an accepted custom to honor that person.
So Yash asked you who wrote the Bible. How can you answer that simple question without making a sad excuse why you can not?
Napa wrote
It's the stuff that got added on AFTER Jesus spoke (or whatever mixture of prophets, myths, and so on) that twisted the simple yet beautiful message. However, I see nothing beautiful in requiring one's followers to hate their mother, father, etc and requiers you sell everything you own and then requires to eat flesh and drink blood.
So are you really understanding anything that is being posted?
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| Aug 7, 2009 @ 2:08 PM |
Subtle Wisdom
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ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 7,935
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I do not "run off to hide" hammertime.
I simply choose to no longer engage in a discussion that has turned childish. You may not even be aware that this is happening to your discussions, because in almost any discussion in which you are a participant, this is what happens.
Regardless of who you are debating with.
So do not blame it on Christians. Anytime the person you are debating does not so much as kiss your butt, you find something to insult them about.
You do not truly understand the teachings of the Bible. And yet you fancy yourself such a clever little man.
In the passage containing the idea of the hate one should have for their mother + father + siblings, those words are not to be taken literally.
Jesus Christ: a great man of peace. A man even praised by highly-respected non-Christians--Ghandi for one. How could you possibly understand anything written in the Bible about Jesus Christ, to be extolling the act of hating anyone in your own family???
You're pretending right? Pretending to be thick??
Think about it!
You've already shown many times that you are capable of understanding much.
Why do you continue to show these very base non-understandings?
It appears that the wisdom of the Bible escapes you.
Many people even in this forum have been leading you to Water. (The guidance offered in the Bible.)
Yet they cannot force you to drink. (Understand the information before you.)
That stage of the journey is one you'll have to take on your own.
=======================================
Sorry...this is added. I forgot about explaining the hate your mother passage.
He was saying that we are to love none more than we love Him.
As God, He previously wrote in the OT. You may have heard this. (It's one of the 10 Commandments.) Exodus 20:3--"You shall have no other Gods before me."
In both the New + the Old Testaments, God has not made it a secret that He demands our respect.
In the OT, he went about revealing this to us through words He wrote on a stone table.
In the NT, his method of communication was not nearly so dramatic. In the appearance of a humble man, He spoke those words aloud to us.
Many people are unable to hear when He does not shout. 
I pray you learn to hear His voice before it is too late for you.
[Edited on 8/7/2009 2:32 PM]
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| Aug 7, 2009 @ 9:40 PM |
Subtle Wisdom |
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SweetNapaGuy
Posts: 9,097
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iam, from what I understand, the writers of that day did not speak that bluntly. They didn't think like we do today. To apply today's reasoning to the writings of the past, is to be the equivalent of a fundamentalist. Don't take what is said literally.
When Jesus says "hate your mother, etc.," you have to view the subtext. Was he really saying that you should hate your mother? No. The teachers of that time often spoke in allegory. Their listeners knew that it was not meant to be taken literally. What could Jesus (or whatever prophet, composite myth, or whatever) possibly have meant when they said "hate your mother, etc."?
It could be a rejection of the past. Jesus could have meant that following the same old traditions of your parents and your parents' parents would have to stop. He offered a new way of thinking, one that cared more for moral intent than ritual morality. It's not enough to act properly, to stick to the letter of the law. You also have to feel it inside, and see how it's the spirit of the law that matters.
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| Aug 7, 2009 @ 10:35 PM |
Subtle Wisdom
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iam01
Posts: 7,558
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When Jesus says "hate your mother, etc.," you have to view the subtext. Was he really saying that you should hate your mother? No. The teachers of that time often spoke in allegory. Their listeners knew that it was not meant to be taken literally. What could Jesus (or whatever prophet, composite myth, or whatever) possibly have meant when they said "hate your mother, etc."?
Allegory? Whats the allegory for hate? or is it metaphorical? To not love too much or as much? To put 2nd or last?
Jesus said
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple but Jesus also said
Matthew 10
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law
I'll tell you if I met someone today face to face who told me this is what I should do, that person might wind up with a broken nose. Sounds like Jesus is trying to destroy families and come between everyone you love. Jesus should have said, love me as much as you love your own mother and father.
What is allegorical or metaphorical and what is not? Who says and why?
Some examples...
God? God is the ultimate confabulation.
The virgin birth? Virgins are allegorical to purity.
Talking ass? A dumb animal that has more wisdom than its owner.
Resurrection? To cast off old ways and see things in a new light.
Parting of Red Sea? When there is a will to be free, nothing stands in the way.
Man living inside a fish for 3 days? I haven't thought much about but its an allegory for something.
Noah's Ark? Fiction account to explain why there are still animals and people after God wiped everyone out.
Basically your interpretation is certainly better than the literal but thats only because "hate" doesn't sit right with you as it shouldn't for any sane person. It might sit right for others thats why there are 10,000 denominations. The fact is there are no facts but confabulations and interpretations based on anything from brain damage and insanity to an Alice in Wonderland mentality. This is the reason why religion has no foundation for morality.
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| Aug 7, 2009 @ 11:40 PM |
Subtle Wisdom |
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southernlass
Posts: 2,980
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Trolling off topic nonsense by Iam on this thread follows:
We must look at the Subtle Stupidity of Our Daily Delusion because Jesus said
You're incoherent. Do you know what lobes on you were affected? Did you actually read what Napa wrote?
SOC,
You often ramble nonsense, avoid questions and then run off to hide. Have you understood what Napa wrote? Did you answer Yash's question?
Do you know what Napa is talking about? Did you ever see the NT say "according to". The technical term Napa is referring to is called Pseudepigrapha. Pseudepigrapha was a tradition where writers would ascribe their writing to someone already famous from the past. Pseudepigraphy was an accepted custom to honor that person.
So Yash asked you who wrote the Bible. How can you answer that simple question without making a sad excuse why you can not?
You and Yash are off topic, Iam. You are also doing what you always do as an atheist. Why do atheists share nothing but personal insult and deragotory general bigotry aimed at Christians in every single one of their posts? Why? Why do they all share this in common?
To bring us back on topic... in between the off topic bs that has practically destroyed the thread, we'll attempt to resume here:
SOC said: I simply choose to no longer engage in a discussion that has turned childish. You may not even be aware that this is happening to your discussions, because in almost any discussion in which you are a participant, this is what happens.
Regardless of who you are debating with.
Yes, he's off topic. This is all he is capable of. It's apparently an unfortunate problem he shares with others who are anti religious atheist, only he has the problem at near epic proportion. back on topic:
The OP is about following Jesus and attempting to do his will, is what I've gleaned from the OP. We must learn to listen to what Jesus Christ and God have called us to do. Or in other words, what is our purpose here? We need to open our minds to this purpose and not be self absorbed with our own tiny plans and self gratifications. We must be open to do as God would have us do.
Something to consider... on topic:
What if we are incapable of hearing HIS will because of FEAR? What if we can't really follow appropriately due to fear of new situations and new circumstances that may force us to freeze or even regress away from what He really desires of us?
If we are frozen in fear, is this going to prevent us from following, from actually doing and knowing God's will in our lives?
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