| Aug 19, 2009 @ 12:09 PM |
Words of wisdom sans man made religion
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yashaenka
Posts: 10,289
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CHAPTER XVII - OF THE MEANS EMPLOYED IN ALL TIME, AND ALMOST UNIVERSALLY, TO DECEIVE THE PEOPLES.
HAVING thus shown the irreconcilable inconsistencies between the real word of God existing in the universe, and that which is called the word of God, as shown to us in a printed book that any man might make, I proceed to speak of the three principal means that have been employed in all ages, and perhaps in all countries, to impose upon mankind.
Those three means are Mystery, Miracle, and Prophecy, The first two are incompatible with true religion, and the third ought always to be suspected.
With respect to Mystery, everything we behold is, in one sense, a mystery to us. Our own existence is a mystery: the whole vegetable world is a mystery. We cannot account how it is that an acorn, when put into the ground, is made to develop itself and become an oak. We know not how it is that the seed we sow unfolds and multiplies itself, and returns to us such an abundant interest for so small a capital.
The fact however, as distinct from the operating cause, is not a mystery, because we see it; and we know also the means we are to use, which is no other than putting the seed in the ground. We know, therefore, as much as is necessary for us to know; and that part of the operation that we do not know, and which if we did, we could not perform, the Creator takes upon himself and performs it for us. We are, therefore, better off than if we had been let into the secret, and left to do it for ourselves.
But though every created thing is, in this sense, a mystery, the word mystery cannot be applied to moral truth, any more than obscurity can be applied to light. The God in whom we believe is a God of moral truth, and not a God of mystery or obscurity. Mystery is the antagonist of truth. It is a fog of human invention that obscures truth, and represents it in distortion. Truth never invelops itself in mystery; and the mystery in which it is at any time enveloped, is the work of its antagonist, and never of itself.
Religion, therefore, being the belief of a God, and the practice of moral truth, cannot have connection with mystery. The belief of a God, so far from having any thing of mystery in it, is of all beliefs the most easy, because it arises to us, as is before observed, out of necessity. And the practice of moral truth, or, in other words, a practical imitation of the moral goodness of God, is no other than our acting towards each other as he acts benignly towards all. We cannot serve God in the manner we serve those who cannot do without such service; and, therefore, the only idea we can have of serving God, is that of contributing to the happiness of the living creation that God has made. This cannot be done by retiring ourselves from the society of the world, and spending a recluse life in selfish devotion.
The very nature and design of religion, if I may so express it, prove even to demonstration that it must be free from every thing of mystery, and unincumbered with every thing that is mysterious. Religion, considered as a duty, is incumbent upon every living soul alike, and, therefore, must be on a level to the understanding and comprehension of all. Man does not learn religion as he learns the secrets and mysteries of a trade. He learns the theory of religion by reflection. It arises out of the action of his own mind upon the things which he sees, or upon what he may happen to hear or to read, and the practice joins itself thereto.
When men, whether from policy or pious fraud, set up systems of religion incompatible with the word or works of God in the creation, and not only above but repugnant to human comprehension, they were under the necessity of inventing or adopting a word that should serve as a bar to all questions, inquiries and speculations. The word mystery answered this purpose, and thus it has happened that religion, which is in itself without mystery, has been corrupted into a fog of mysteries.
As mystery answered all general purposes, miracle followed as an occasional auxiliary. The former served to bewilder the mind, the latter to puzzle the senses. The one was the lingo, the other the legerdemain.  
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| Aug 23, 2009 @ 7:22 PM |
Words of wisdom sans man made religion |
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Angel54214
Posts: 19,005
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Thomas Paine...Age of Reason. It would have been nice yash if you had provided the link to give this man the credit for his writing.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
When Paine wrote "Rights of Man" 1791-1792, he ridiculed monarchy and hereditary. Thus he was charged with seditious libel. In fear of his life, he exiled to France. He then found himself being threatened by hanging and his books were banned. Paine was arrested by orders of the Jacobin leader when Louis XVI was brought to trial. This was the day he completed his writing of Age of Reason.
Paine daily watched his Girondin friends one by one taken to the guillotine from his prison window. When Robespierre fell from his power in 1794, Paine was freed. He was next on the list to be executed.
He was denied entry back to England, so he stayed in France until 1802 when he returned to America. He found that his colony American friends abandoned him; they didn't want anything to do with him due to his radical behaviors and writings during the American Revolution. He held no values or liberties that the other Founding Fathers were working so hard to establish in the colonies. He was denied the right to vote due to his abandonment from America to France; he no longer was considered a American citizen, but a deserter and a renegade that turned away from new America and her people.
Paine was feeling pain...he began drinking; he drank heavily drowning is own sorrows in a jug. He just kept getting sicker and sicker. When Paine died on the 8th of June 1809, only a handful of freedman attended his funeral in New York and they buried him at his homestead New Rochelle. The local paper, The New York Citizen published is obituary...
"He had lived long, did some good and much harm."
Through the ages, various politians and clergy have tried to figure Paine's beliefs out; Some determined from his actions and writings that he was athiest. Some determined him to be Deist. I don't think Paine even knew...
~ "I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life." ~
The Creed of Thomas Paine - Age of Reason (Chapter 1, Part 1)
http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/paine/aor/index.htm
From Thomas Paine's Will...
The last will and testament of me, the subscriber, Thomas Paine, reposing confidence in my Creator, God and in no other being, for I know of no other, nor believe in any other. http://www.davemckay.co.uk/philosophy/paine/paine.php?name=vol10.19.the.will.of.thomas.paine
[Edited on 8/23/2009 7:58 PM]
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| Aug 23, 2009 @ 10:36 PM |
Words of wisdom sans man made religion
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southernlass
Posts: 2,989
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Yash appears to believe he is above citing what he sources. I think different people have asked him to start citing his sources now approximately on four or five different occasions that I'm aware of; he continues to ignore those who ask and attempts to take credit for what other people have written. Tacky.
In reference to Thomas Paine:
He had lived long, did some good and much harm."
Sounds like an utterly miserable human being, which doesn't surprise me in the least. Perhaps one should think twice about gleaning much wisdom from a person who obviously has little conscience or morality, due to a lack of guidance in his life. A little religion might have done him good, from the look of things. Seems that subscribing to reason only doesn't help one with integrity, morality, or conscience development in the least -- he also drank himself to death.
Thanks for the research, Angel. Good work.
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| Aug 23, 2009 @ 11:19 PM |
Words of wisdom sans man made religion |
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Angel54214
Posts: 19,005
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Thanks SL...and I agree with your thoughts as well.
I also have come to understanding that we should not be measured as to what we believe, but how we work and live within our lives from what we believe. Action certainly speakers louder than words.
Paine concentrated all his life in passing judgement upon others, that he negelected to judge himself, therefore he lived in a circle of chaos; never settling down completely. From his writings I see much pain in is lashings-out; he lost his young wife to childbirth as well as lost the child. He never married again or Fathered other children. From his "Will", he didn't have any relatives to leave his life time of possessions to.
The only writing that I found admirable from Paine, was his early writing called A Discourse at the Society of Theophilanthropists. You should read it and read it slowly to absorb his thoughts. It's really profounding!
http://www.deism.com/paine_essay_atheism.htm
You know SL...Paine when he was in England where he was raised, he followed his Father's footsteps...he became a Quaker Minister. After the loss of his wife and child, he left the ministry.
[Edited on 8/23/2009 11:25 PM]
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| Aug 25, 2009 @ 9:08 AM |
Words of wisdom sans man made religion
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yashaenka
Posts: 10,289
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You as a semi educated woman of 55 are making judgments about a man with a very limited education of your own. It seems the more ignorant the more opinionated... 
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| Aug 25, 2009 @ 9:16 AM |
Words of wisdom sans man made religion |
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iam01
Posts: 7,571
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Paine concentrated all his life in passing judgement upon others, that he negelected to judge himself, therefore he lived in a circle of chaos; never settling down completely. From his writings I see much pain in is lashings-out; he lost his young wife to childbirth as well as lost the child. He never married again or Fathered other children. From his "Will", he didn't have any relatives to leave his life time of possessions to.
Could Christians be attempting to paint Paine with Christian brush strokes? As we know by statistics, the Bible Belt contains the highest concentration of divorce, child abuse, spousal abuse, murder, racial bigotry, alcoholism, cohabitation, STDs, abortions and pornography. A lot of miserable people calling out for God's help and getting God's wrath only they, themselves are responsible for. They are the spiritual black hole of the world were no light shines from.
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| Aug 25, 2009 @ 10:30 AM |
Words of wisdom sans man made religion
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yashaenka
Posts: 10,289
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Friday, March 17, 2006
Thomas Paine: Founding Father and Genius
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I believe the equality of man, and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy.
But, lest it should be supposed that I believe many other things in addition to these, I shall, in the progress of this work, declare the things I do not believe, and my reasons for not believing them.
I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit...
EVERY national church or religion has established itself by pretending some special mission from God, communicated to certain individuals. The Jews have their Moses; the Christians their Jesus Christ, their apostles and saints; and the Turks their Mahomet; as if the way to God was not open to every man alike.
Each of those churches shows certain books, which they call revelation, or the Word of God. The Jews say that their Word of God was given by God to Moses face to face; the Christians say, that their Word of God came by divine inspiration; and the Turks say, that their Word of God (the Koran) was brought by an angel from heaven. Each of those churches accuses the other of unbelief; and, for my own part, I disbelieve them all.
As it is necessary to affix right ideas to words, I will, before I proceed further into the subject, offer some observations on the word 'revelation.' Revelation when applied to religion, means something communicated immediately from God to man.
No one will deny or dispute the power of the Almighty to make such a communication if he pleases. But admitting, for the sake of a case, that something has been revealed to a certain person, and not revealed to any other person, it is revelation to that person only. When he tells it to a second person, a second to a third, a third to a fourth, and so on, it ceases to be a revelation to all those persons. It is revelation to the first person only, and hearsay to every other, and, consequently, they are not obliged to believe it  Thomas Paine
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| Aug 26, 2009 @ 4:16 AM |
Words of wisdom sans man made religion |
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southernlass
Posts: 2,989
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Could Christians be attempting to paint Paine with Christian brush strokes? As we know by statistics, the Bible Belt contains the highest concentration of divorce, child abuse, spousal abuse, murder, racial bigotry, alcoholism, cohabitation, STDs, abortions and pornography. A lot of miserable people calling out for God's help and getting God's wrath only they, themselves are responsible for. They are the spiritual black hole of the world were no light shines from.
Could I use this extremely biased opinion for toliet paper? lol.. oh, it's virtual. I guess not.
Source some worthwhile stats for us, please, to validate your OPINION. And then, explain how your stats are going to differentiate in who is actually truly a practicing, believing Christian, because these people are RARE. I would imagine the validity factor is nill based upon the stats for this very reason.
Friday, March 17, 2006
Thomas Paine: Founding Father and Genius
Genius? I think not. Miserable, on the other hand, obviously. Anyone taking this one's advice best tread extremely cautiously.
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| Aug 26, 2009 @ 4:59 AM |
Words of wisdom sans man made religion
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Thor1960303
Posts: 3,555
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And then, explain how your stats are going to differentiate in who is actually truly a practicing, believing Christian, because these people are RARE
Well if the actual number of REAL Christians is in reality quite small in an area where there is a fundy church on just about every other street corner in every big city or small town in the Bible Belt, then it doesn't say much for the power of conversion, does it?
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| Aug 26, 2009 @ 5:27 AM |
Words of wisdom sans man made religion |
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southernlass
Posts: 2,989
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And who was arguing for the power of conversion? We merely do the best we can. We can only deliver the message. I believe one's heart is receptive and open to God or it is not; that has nothing to do with the messenger or the message.
Edit: Many may think they are followers of Christ but the bible says that Jesus Christ will say that He never knew them. Followers of Christ are doing the will of the Father and of Christ Jesus. They are striving their best to live as we've been admonished to live on a daily basis. The "realness" is in that striving, imo, and in the heart of the one striving. And God knows that heart.
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| Aug 26, 2009 @ 5:55 AM |
Words of wisdom sans man made religion
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Thor1960303
Posts: 3,555
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And who was arguing for the power of conversion?
You guys argue it as "evidence" of your version of reality. "Power of changed lives" I believe you call it. Not only can people change their lives in a myriad of other ways besides religious conversion, there is discrepancy among Christians as to who are the "true" Christians. This, to me, shows just another argument with meaningless loopholes.
Why is there so much dysfunction on the Bible Belt if Christianity has the power to change lives? Because the number of true Christians mong them is very small.
Yet changed lives is evidence that Christianity is true? Logic would dictate that if changed lives was evidence of the reality of Christian dogma, the stats would tell a different story, just like the claim of the supposed power of prayer. If prayer had any real power, there would be consistency in the numbers of people who respond to it and it could be empirically proven over and over. Yet Christians hide behind yet another loophole with, "God's ways are different from ours and mysterious" or "God's not interested in stats" and my personal favorite, "God doesn't have to prove anything to science". Yeah, OK whatever.   
 
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| Aug 26, 2009 @ 10:10 AM |
Words of wisdom sans man made religion |
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Deborah551
Posts: 1,519
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But admitting, for the sake of a case, that something has been revealed to a certain person, and not revealed to any other person, it is revelation to that person only. When he tells it to a second person, a second to a third, a third to a fourth, and so on, it ceases to be a revelation to all those persons. It is revelation to the first person only, and hearsay to every other, and, consequently, they are not obliged to believe it Preachit brother Paine, preach it!!! Amen and glory Hallelujiah.
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| Aug 27, 2009 @ 9:42 AM |
Words of wisdom sans man made religion
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yashaenka
Posts: 10,289
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SL how can you separate God from Christ and the Spirit that is flying in the face of what the Trinity claims 3 Gods in one? 
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