| Aug 19 @ 2:42 PM |
Do Nonbelievers Really Want to Infringe Upon Individual Rights?
|
|
Thor1960303
Posts: 3,345
|
It's been suggested that militant nonbelievers have an agenda to stop the religious from practicing their faith. While there are certainly organizations that want to do such things as see that new money is printed sans "In God We Trust" or remove theistic language and imagery from public places and such, I seriously doubt that very many nonbelievers really care about stopping anyone from worshipping in their own home or church or anything else that doesn't infringe upon a person's right to live in their own secular dictates sans belief (freedom from religion).
While I personally would like to see religion adopt a less agressive stance and eventually evolve into living philosophies for life as opposed to their current death cult/fantasy myth worshipping status, I have no desire to infringe upon anyone's First Ammendment rights. Doing away with one person's rights leaves a door open to possibly do away with others' rights, a slippery slope that I'm not willing to go down.
Since when, though, is opposing efforts to get creationism and ID brought into schools infringing upon someone's right to pursue religion? Just how is opposing the RC church's stance on condoms in the sub Sahara region or pushing for stem cell research infringing upon another's right to worship as they please? Just how will the legalization of same sex marriage stop anyone from attending a worship service of choice or anything else that pursuing their faith involves?
As a nontheist, I believe that religion will eventually fall into a less literal interpretation of scriptures, but I believe this will be a natural progression, NOT a government forced sanction as religion is, as Iam puts it, self debunking to anyone with an undamaged mind.
|
|
  |
|
| Aug 19 @ 8:58 PM |
Do Nonbelievers Really Want to Infringe Upon Individual Rights? |
|
Jankia
Posts: 11,900
|
I'm sure the KKK would also love to see the promoters of human rights adopt a less aggressive stance and eventually evolve into an attitude of white supremacy.
Its mind-boggling to see people that want the secularization of America.
I'm still waiting for non-believers to contribute to this country something that has proven itself as beneficial as faith has proven to be...to those that have and use it.
|
| |
|
| Aug 19 @ 9:22 PM |
Do Nonbelievers Really Want to Infringe Upon Individual Rights?
|
|
Loreli
Posts: 25,401
|
Who is anyone here to decide if someone has "an undamaged mind"?
That's where the problem comes in
Not everyone is trying to convince, convert....but discuss.
If it were handled better-by all-there would be no infringing....
|
|
| |
|
| Aug 19 @ 11:07 PM |
Do Nonbelievers Really Want to Infringe Upon Individual Rights? |
|
SweetNapaGuy
Posts: 8,496
|
Its mind-boggling to see people that want the secularization of America.
Yeah, I'm with you there. We need to turn this country into a bastion of Wiccan faith. 
This nation is a nation of many faiths. The trends are that Christianity is in the decline. Within a quarter-century, Christianity may no longer be in the majority.
Why, then, would any Christian want to set a precedent of allowing for a "state religion" status, recognized by the government?
|
| |
|
| Aug 20 @ 12:18 AM |
Do Nonbelievers Really Want to Infringe Upon Individual Rights?
|
|
katydid438
Posts: 8,020
|
Why, then, would any Christian want to set a precedent of allowing for a "state religion" status, recognized by the government? ...very good question  Some people should really sit back and quit their self righteous whining.......government contolled religion could be a nightmare (just look at the cause of most of the fighting in the middle east).Freedom of religion is a right in democratic countries,,,lets all just enjoy and learn from our religious diversity......to do anything else would be going backward in evolution.....I'm not prepared to cover my head and face, but if that is what my religion dictated, then so be it.
Tolerence is the key......just remember that if we had to go to live in a "state controlled religion" country, there would be no question....we would have no control.
With this in mind it would seem that fighting over whether God is mentioned in a school seems petty and uninformed about todays' world.
|
|
| |
|
| Aug 20 @ 8:14 AM |
Do Nonbelievers Really Want to Infringe Upon Individual Rights? |
|
yashaenka
Posts: 8,236
|
Christianity evolved as a State owned religion. Before the Romans made Christianity one of their religions Christianity was a bunch of small cults without uniformity. It was the Romans not the Christians that carried Christianity to the far reaches of the Roman empire. Without that Christianity would have remained a series of cults.
|
| |
|
| Aug 20 @ 8:16 AM |
Do Nonbelievers Really Want to Infringe Upon Individual Rights?
|
|
iam01
Posts: 6,276
|
I really wouldn't mind of churches were transformed into museums and Christians show up on a regular basis as living fossils. The churches would survive by charging admission to spectators.
|
|
| |
|
| Aug 20 @ 8:26 AM |
Do Nonbelievers Really Want to Infringe Upon Individual Rights? |
|
yashaenka
Posts: 8,236
|
The cult of Christianity is still evolving...
|
| |
|
| Aug 20 @ 9:40 AM |
Do Nonbelievers Really Want to Infringe Upon Individual Rights?
|
|
Heaveninawildflower
Posts: 18,606
|
Can we define 'nonbeliever' here? I'm a nonbeliever in atheism and christianity. Are we talking about militant atheists, or are we talking about those who want a secular America (as in keeping God out of the Constitution) in order to protect the freedom of religion of all?
I'm not the first, but I'm definitely the latter. I don't want to see creationism taught in public schools, I don't want any sort of supernatural intervention taught as science. If you want to introduce it into a philosophy or comparitive religion class, that's cool by me, but unless we accept every religious creation theory, all of which have as much scientific standing as creationism, leave it out of the science classes, even as an alternative theory.
I'm still waiting for non-believers to contribute to this country something that has proven itself as beneficial as faith has proven to be...to those that have and use it.
Jankia, it depends on definitions once again. Christianity is your chosen faith, the one you were born into and remained in. As far as I'm concerned you're a lucky man. You, SL, SoC and others here have found your path there, born to it or not. Others like me never felt it rang true and have looked elsewhere for our paths. If you're looking for non-Christians who've contributed to this country, you don't have to look far - as I said, there's a reason that God's not in the Constitution. There was no monolithic Christian majority - it was a conglomeration of splinter groups who couldn't agree on anything. The evidence supports that Washington, Jefferson, Franklin and Payne weren't exactly avid Christians, but far more on the line of Deists. If you've seen references by them to Christ's role in our lives, I'd love to see them because that would be totally news to me. These were men who chose to make America secular as a path to peace and freedom for all.
|
|
| |
|
| Aug 20 @ 9:50 AM |
Do Nonbelievers Really Want to Infringe Upon Individual Rights? |
|
yashaenka
Posts: 8,236
|
United States is not a Christian Nation
One of the hard facts of life is that the United States of America is not a Christian Nation. The following Treaty was made by the United States of America with the Barbary Pirates. It passed the 5th Congress without a hitch. Article 11 was made part of the record to convince the Muslims that the United States of America is not a Christian Nation, and therefore peace could be established between the two nations.
TREATIES AND OTHER
INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENTS
OF THE
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
1776-1949 See Article 11
Treaty of TripoliARTICLE 11
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,4 - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. 
|
| |
|
| Aug 21 @ 8:32 AM |
Do Nonbelievers Really Want to Infringe Upon Individual Rights?
|
|
dharmaseeker
Posts: 39
|
It's not so much wanting to infringe upon others. It is, instead, not wanting our rights infringed. As a Buddhist I must be tolerant, kind, respectful and not judgmental if I am to follow that which I believe. As an American, however, it is my right and indeed my duty to speak up when other people want to perpetuate their religion at my or my families' expense.
Yes, I do want "In God We Trust" off the dollar. I do not trust a god nor believe in the Christian God the phrase speaks of. Should I as a Buddhist be required to promote Christianity by having to use currency with that phrase on it?
In Texas the battle is with the state board of education. Right wing politics and worse, right wing religious views, are seeping into the text books and classrooms via a school board heavily leaning to the right. Several right wing radicals are pushing for Bible classes as a regular part of High School curriculum. Just today an article in the Houston Chronicle mentioned how right wing politics takes center stage in new teaching standards for American History.
As an extreme minority I have no voice in this matter. Even so I must send my children to school or homeschool them. Either way they're penalized. I can teach them well in homeschool, and I have done so up until now, but they loose all the extracurricular activities, mingling with friends, etc., schools provide. In Texas schools, however, Christian influence is strong and getting stronger. "Separation of church and state" rules for public school are a joke here.
As long as dominant religions choose to dominate American politics without consideration of others or their religious beliefs America is not a true democracy but a tyranny of the majority.
Who is infringing upon whose individual rights?
|
|
| |
|
| Aug 21 @ 8:38 AM |
Do Nonbelievers Really Want to Infringe Upon Individual Rights? |
|
Banned_Knots
Posts: 1,125
|
Daharamseeker, what the hell....... who do you think you are to say such things!!!!!
You are so right!
Of course we know who is truly right..... "truth."
|
| |
|
| Aug 21 @ 11:01 AM |
Do Nonbelievers Really Want to Infringe Upon Individual Rights?
|
|
southernlass
Posts: 2,227
|
Who is anyone here to decide if someone has "an undamaged mind"?
That's where the problem comes in
Not everyone is trying to convince, convert....but discuss.
If it were handled better-by all-there would be no infringing....
Good point. Short of someone who is actually licensed to practice in a mental health capacity, I would take these armchair diagnosis' for what they are -- baloney.
As an extreme minority I have no voice in this matter. Even so I must send my children to school or homeschool them. Either way they're penalized. I can teach them well in homeschool, and I have done so up until now, but they loose all the extracurricular activities, mingling with friends, etc., schools provide. In Texas schools, however, Christian influence is strong and getting stronger. "Separation of church and state" rules for public school are a joke here.
In a secular, humanist public school system, you've outlined Christian feeling on this matter well. We feel as if any Christian influence is being rooted out and banished, while the secularists take over. They have their own PACs and political agendas; therefore it should be of no surprise or issue that we have ours. As long as those who are atheist, as well as a host of other philosophical leanings, are able to influence political thought and legislate, why should those who are Christian not be allowed to do so? The argument is futile and absurd unless you intend to ban everyone with a personal stake in it. We all believe as we choose and are capable of influencing law. No one should be barred from doing so in a democratic government.
|
|
| |
|
| Aug 21 @ 4:23 PM |
Do Nonbelievers Really Want to Infringe Upon Individual Rights? |
|
beckyiv42000
Posts: 14,576
|
I have a question...  Now if indeed they choose to teach a bible class in the high schools and make it mandatory ..will they also teach a class on Buddhism, Wicca, Islam, Judaism. etc etc. making them ALL mandatory?? Or how about a class based on Creationism right next to one on the beliefs for EACH religion on how the world came to be?? Or would that just be TOO.. um what would you call it ..um I got it .. EQUAL...
|
| |
|
| Aug 21 @ 5:15 PM |
Do Nonbelievers Really Want to Infringe Upon Individual Rights?
|
|
BandTMom
Posts: 38,059
|
Religion is a personal matter and as I've said many times before, has NO place in a public school system.
Religion, beliefs, or whatever you want to call it, should be taught in the HOME.
|
|
| |
|
| Aug 21 @ 5:27 PM |
Do Nonbelievers Really Want to Infringe Upon Individual Rights? |
|
beckyiv42000
Posts: 14,576
|
I have another idea .. IF they want their religion (whoever it may be) to be taught in school they could send their kids to either a school based on their beliefs or Sunday school or Temple or Catechism etc etc ... ORRRRRRR we could raise taxes and have schools for each religion provided FREE OF CHARGE Religion is a FREE CHOICE .. education is not .. Having a religious belief is not mandatory going to school is 
|
| |
|
| Aug 21 @ 7:06 PM |
Do Nonbelievers Really Want to Infringe Upon Individual Rights?
|
|
Thor1960303
Posts: 3,345
|
Now if indeed they choose to teach a bible class in the high schools and make it mandatory ..will they also teach a class on Buddhism, Wicca, Islam, Judaism. etc etc. making them ALL mandatory?? Or how about a class based on Creationism right next to one on the beliefs for EACH religion on how the world came to be?? Or would that just be TOO.. um what would you call it ..um I got it .. EQUAL...
And while we're at it, let's put a class in there on Satanism and have discussions on post Lavaeyan modern Satanism vs. medieval Satanism. Let's have mandatory classes on Norse creation myths as well as ancient Greek and Roman religions. That's the problem, where do you draw the line? Why does Christianity get special treatment, just because the so called "majority" of the USA claims Christianity as it's home religion? OK fine, now which version of Christianity do you want to uphold as the "true" version to be taught in public schools? Have fun debating that one.
Bottom line here folks and it matters not who gets offended here, SCIENCE is the ONLY thing that should be taught in a SCIENCE class and the overwhelming majority of the scientific community support EVOLUTION as TRUTH, get over it Christians! Shove your stupid conspiracy myths about end times! That's just the FACTS!!!!!! Your pathetic attempts at making ancient myth look like science have failed, there simply is no evidence to support Genesis as anything more than MYTH!!!! Except maybe to a handfull of "creation scientists" who are pathetically still trying to find Noah's ark in the frozen mountain ranges of Turkey.
You have NO evidence, only faith. Faith is fine for your sunday school classes but keep it out of public schools, unless you're teaching a civics class, religion or philosophy class. Your mythology is NOT science!!!!!
|
|
| |
|
| Aug 21 @ 7:22 PM |
Do Nonbelievers Really Want to Infringe Upon Individual Rights? |
|
uab_5
Posts: 4,759
|
Did someone says
PRAYA IN SKEW?
Ol' Fob James ran fo' state foo' on that hate mongerin' ticket!
I heya that Yankees ah settin' up an Bama governor's wing at Terra Haute next to the Illinois governor's wing! 
|
| |
|
| Aug 21 @ 7:49 PM |
Do Nonbelievers Really Want to Infringe Upon Individual Rights?
|
|
Jankia
Posts: 11,900
|
I see youve exhibited your true colors Thor with that rant but sorry... the bottom line is about education.This isnt about having a Bible class in public schools,its about teaching.
How are our children to make a decision about something thats obviously important to this world...religion,if they arent taught what religion is?
By reading the rantings of the non-religious in a dating forum?
You can cry about it having no place in science class till your blue in the face but it wont matter to people that want to broaden our childrens horizons by educating them on religious diversity in this world.
Thats better then hoping theyre educated by somebody not having the credentials necessary to give them the unbiased truth in learning.
Remember... the science we teach in schools today have no valid explanation for the origin of life. Science is defined so as to exclude creationism but it cant.
Why?
Could it be because there isnt anything taught about creationism to our children that one day might become science teachers? 
Not knowing something because its not taught is a hapless tool in discovering the truth IMO.
BTW- If your going to also cry about faith,it would be a good idea to get an education about what it is if you want your personal claims can have any merit in a public forum. 
|
|
| |
|
| Aug 21 @ 8:17 PM |
Do Nonbelievers Really Want to Infringe Upon Individual Rights? |
|
yashaenka
Posts: 8,236
|
Religion and Living Philosophies belong in the home and while your children you the parent hold the responsibility of sharing with them your own Religion or belief system.
It is one thing to teach real History or Philosophy in our schools it is another to try to teach Theology to sub 18 year olds.
|
| |
|
|