| Sep 10 @ 5:01 PM |
The Myth of Changed Lives
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Thor1960303
Posts: 3,345
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[QUOTE]Pollster Can't Find that Christianity is Transforming Lives
http://pub53.ezboard.com/fatheismfrm12.showMessage?topicID=56.topic
VENTURA, Calif. -- Pollster George Barna, known these days as the bearer of bad tidings about the state of Christianity in America, arrived in his office a few minutes late for a 10 a.m. appointment.
His hair was ruffled; his eyes puffy. Shoulders slouched. Being the George Gallup of the conservative evangelical world is a heavy burden for Barna, who often works into the early morning, deciphering numbers generated by his surveys to find church trends.
The 48-year-old author of 30 books, who describes himself as a raging introvert, is a popular national speaker. And he produces enough in-your-face statistics and blunt talk to irritate pastors, cost him business and earn a reputation for having, as one magazine put it, "the gift of discouragement."
His data undercut some of the core beliefs that should, by definition, set evangelicals apart from their more liberal brethren. Findings of his polls show, for example, that:
• The divorce rate is no different for born-again Christians than for those who do not consider themselves religious.
• Only a minority of born-again adults (44 percent) and a tiny proportion of born-again teenagers (9 percent) are certain that absolute moral truth exists.
• Most Christians' votes are influenced more by economic self-interest than by spiritual and moral values.
• Desiring to have a close, personal relationship with God ranks sixth among the 21 life goals tested among born-agains, trailing such desires as "living a comfortable lifestyle."
'Are people's lives being transformed" by Christianity? Barna has asked. "We can't find evidence of a transformation."
Even Barna's toughest critics concede that Barna Research Group's polls carry considerable weight because of his first-rate surveying techniques and his 17-year-long record of tracking church and cultural trends.
His work has been used by major companies (Ford Motor Co. and Walt Disney, for example) and religious organizations such as the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and World Vision.
"He is the accepted authority on church trends," said Bob Cavin, director of the Texas Baptist Leadership Center. "He gives pastors insight, not only into the effectiveness of the church, but with trends in society that help the pastors with their strategic planning."
Because of his influence, many are watching with interest as Barna branches out from his usual business. He has been preoccupied with quantifying contemporary Christian beliefs, attitudes and practices; comparing them with biblical truths; and delivering the results to pastors, Christian leaders and laity. He said that he once hoped his analyses would be used as building blocks for more relevant churches.
But he decided this year to take a more active role by helping to identify and develop new and better church leaders who will boldly go where their predecessors haven't gone before: to radically revamp the church. He said he believes the process will take decades -- generations -- to complete.
"One of our challenges is to revisit the structures and means through which people experience Christ," Barna said. "People have been talking about developing the 'new church' for the past several decades, but nothing new has been forthcoming."
According to Barna, pastors are great teachers, but not necessarily adept at leadership. To back up his claim, he cited one of his own polls: It showed that only 12 percent of senior pastors say they have the spiritual gift of leadership and 8 percent say they have the gift of evangelism. In contrast, two-thirds say they have the gift of teaching or preaching.
"We, not God, have created a system that doesn't work and that we're reluctant to change."
Barna also is in the early stages of establishing a genuine and appealing Christian presence in secular entities: film, music, media and politics. He has identified these as the institutions that hold the most influence over Americans.
What's needed are "skilled professionals who love Christ and model his ways through their thoughts, words and behavior in enviable and biblically consistent ways," he said.
For Barna, the need for better leadership and better Christian role models in the secular world was underscored by a poll he released this month.
9/11 opportunity lost
The survey showed that the Sept. 11 attacks had virtually no lasting effects on America's faith, despite a 20 percent rise in church attendance during the first few weeks afterward.
"We missed a huge opportunity," he said, adding that, because of their own shallow faith, church regulars needed so much reassurance themselves that they couldn't minister to newcomers.
This kind of comment bothers evangelical Christians.
Mike Regele, author of "The Death of the Church," is one of many who believe the Barna Research Group's statistical work is excellent, but the conclusions drawn by the company's founder are too harsh.
The hypocrisy of Christians, Regele said, "has been a part of the church, probably since the day of Pentecost" and doesn't indicate its collapse.
"It sounds like he's very, very angry at the church," said Regele, a church critic himself who is ultimately an optimist. "There are reasons to be disappointed, but scripture never said we'd be perfect. We shouldn't view the whole institution as a fail
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| Sep 10 @ 5:30 PM |
The Myth of Changed Lives |
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Jankia
Posts: 11,900
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This kind of comment bothers evangelical Christians.
OK,show us why Christians are "bothered" by his personal statement that church regulars needed so much reassurance themselves that they couldn't minister to newcomers.
I'm bothered more by his personal BS then what he knows to be fact according to a survey of how many people?
Mike Regele, author of "The Death of the Church," is one of many who believe the Barna Research Group's statistical work is excellent, but the conclusions drawn by the company's founder are too harsh. Much like your heading to this thread Thor.
How can changed lives be a myth when none of the percentages of people he related to in this article are over 50%.
He says he can't find Christianity transforming lives maybe before looking for Christianity to transform anything he should look to the only one that can.
Jesus Christ
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| Sep 10 @ 5:47 PM |
The Myth of Changed Lives
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Thor1960303
Posts: 3,345
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He says he can't find Christianity transforming lives maybe before looking for Christianity to transform anything he should look to the only one that can.
Jesus Christ
Why not look to Allah? Jusaf Islam (formerly known as Cat Stevens) can attest to a changed life through the god of Islam.
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| Sep 10 @ 6:00 PM |
The Myth of Changed Lives |
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Jankia
Posts: 11,900
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I wouldnt know Thor your going to have to ask the Baptist himself or find another survey that asks how many lives have been changed by Allah.
Who knows? You might find that a myth as well. 
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| Sep 10 @ 6:21 PM |
The Myth of Changed Lives
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iam01
Posts: 6,276
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The Barna Group is only one of may statistical sources. The other sources such as the CDC and other government gives us statistics for murder, STDs, abortion, pornography, cohabitation, child abuse, infidelity, etc. The Bible Belt contains the highest infractions compared to the rest of the country. Places with the highest religiosity has the highest immorality. Its no surprise these same places have the highest level of stupidity. For example, Liberty Universe claims to have dinosaur fossils 3000-5000 years old. Bob Jones University only hires biology professors willing to teach the young earth myth and the school has a very long history of racial bigotry. Its no surprise we find in this region exists Creationism Museums that have dioramas dedicated to the Flintstones and Christian loons speaking in tongues going "Yaba daba doo".
Here is a page from a Creationist coloring book hung on the wall in a study room at one of their museums. A talking dinosaur. Is his name Dino?
Here is a particular exhibit that denotes the stupidity of its the designer, those designers being a Christian museum directors.
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| Sep 10 @ 6:45 PM |
The Myth of Changed Lives |
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Bj864
Posts: 3,960
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Even though I am not of the Christian faith, I have seen lives changed by it.
One uncle was an alcoholic until he went to church. He never drank again and his entire lifestyle changed.
I had another uncle that liked to run around with women and drink (he was married). He started going to church and after a few years became the minister there. He was their minister for many years. He was so well loved, the church people sat with him around the clock for weeks before he passed away.
I had another uncle that became a Catholic priest after spending time with a sick neighbor that was catholic. I think his life was certainly "transformed".
Many people in prison turn to various religions to help them cope.
Anyway my point is that lives CAN be changed when people make God the focus of their lives, no matter what their faith is.
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| Sep 10 @ 6:52 PM |
The Myth of Changed Lives
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BandTMom
Posts: 38,059
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Lives can be changed when a person finds a "focus" in their lives and religion doesn't have to enter into it. 
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| Sep 10 @ 7:51 PM |
The Myth of Changed Lives |
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MrPaul
Posts: 1,633
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Lives can be changed when a person finds a "focus" in their lives and religion doesn't have to enter into it. True   But it can help and also give one a good support group of friends that care and have something in common, Just as meeting at the Buddhism temple and developing a better understanding of self and building a support group of friends that have something in common will help. The sooner we all realize that one way will not fit all is not the answer and work on encouraging and uplifting each other when we can no matter what path one chooses the better we ALL will become
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| Sep 10 @ 8:07 PM |
The Myth of Changed Lives
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Deborah551
Posts: 1,015
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'Are people's lives being transformed" by Christianity? Barna has asked. "We can't find evidence of a transformation." Well, I didn't see any transformed lives when I was a christian and my own life wasn't all that transformed. There were nice christians and not so nice christians. There were gossips, liars, mean spirited people just like anywhere else. There were lazy christians and hard working christians. I didn't see any difference between christians and unchristian people. Christians might be all lovey dovey and nice during church service, but disagree with one of their pet doctrines and they can get angry as a ram. I witnessed this many times in christians too. Or, they don't study their Bibles and know next to nothing about it and are only there for friendship and to participate in other activities. That's the kind of christian I saw at most the churches I attended.
OK,show us why Christians are "bothered" by his personal statement that church regulars needed so much reassurance themselves that they couldn't minister to newcomers.
I'm bothered more by his personal BS then what he knows to be fact according to a survey of how many people? I thought Barna was Christian, Jankia? Even if he isn't, why would he make this stuff up since it can so easily be proven false? It's just another nail in the coffin of so called christians being better than anybody else. They aren't and I witnessed it personally myself.
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| Sep 10 @ 8:12 PM |
The Myth of Changed Lives |
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BandTMom
Posts: 38,059
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The sooner we all realize that one way will not fit all is not the answer and work on encouraging and uplifting each other when we can no matter what path one chooses the better we ALL will become
Sometimes life is hard enough and being alone makes it so much harder. We should come together, support one another and learn from one another.
Many paths and one destination. We can get there so much easier when we work together.
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| Sep 10 @ 8:39 PM |
The Myth of Changed Lives
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iam01
Posts: 6,276
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I thought Barna was Christian, Jankia? Even if he isn't, why would he make this stuff up since it can so easily be proven false? It's just another nail in the coffin of so called christians being better than anybody else. They aren't and I witnessed it personally myself. What exactly is Jankia complaining about? Is it because Jankia himself is a statistic Barna counted?
If there is any group in the world who could rightly be considered better than others are the Jains. Of course, unlike Christians, they would never consider such an egotistical thought. These people really embody compassion so much they sweep the ground in front of them so they don't kill bugs. They regard all life as sacred far beyond any Christian could or would. They are so nonviolent they are careful not to cause any influence where harm comes to others and that includes non-human life. Unlike Christians, they never condemn other faiths or beliefs.
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| Sep 10 @ 9:00 PM |
The Myth of Changed Lives |
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MrPaul
Posts: 1,633
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If there is any group in the world who could rightly be considered better than others are the Jains. Of course, unlike Christians, they would never consider such an egotistical thought. These people really embody compassion so much they sweep the ground in front of them so they don't kill bugs. They regard all life as sacred far beyond any Christian could or would. They are so nonviolent they are careful not to cause any influence where harm comes to others and that includes non-human life. Unlike Christians, they never condemn other faiths or beliefs Sounds wonderful 1am are you joining 
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| Sep 10 @ 9:19 PM |
The Myth of Changed Lives
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southernlass
Posts: 2,223
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My life being changed is no myth.
(Shrug) Of course, no one bothered to interview me and ask about the changes.
I wonder how many others of us this guy missed.
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| Sep 10 @ 10:06 PM |
The Myth of Changed Lives |
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Jankia
Posts: 11,900
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Deb- I thought Barna was Christian, Jankia? I never said he wasnt Deb.
Southerlass-I wonder how many others of us this guy missed.
It really doesnt matter how many he missed when he can cause people to make the wrong interpretation with those he didnt miss. 
Mr Paul-Sounds wonderful 1am are you joining I doubt it,it would take up to much of his recess time Paul.
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| Sep 10 @ 10:35 PM |
The Myth of Changed Lives
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ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 7,438
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My life being changed is no myth either southernlass. 
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| Sep 10 @ 10:36 PM |
The Myth of Changed Lives |
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Deborah551
Posts: 1,015
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Well, I did a little study of the Jains and you have to give up meat to become a Jain. Now, I don't eat a lot of meat anyway, but I'm not ready to give it up totally. So, that could be a very good reason why Iam wouldn't be a Jain. Anyways, my husband still eats meat and I'd have to buy it and prepare it for him and that would still be a reason I couldn't be Jain. They seem like a peaceful group of people though.
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| Sep 10 @ 10:47 PM |
The Myth of Changed Lives
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iam01
Posts: 6,276
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Deb
Once upon a time I became a vegetarian and drove my mom crazy. That lasted about a year and one day she was making one of her famous cheese burgers with onions and all I had to do was smell it and I became a carnivore again. The whole experience made me mindful however. I try to hold the Native American view of the animal. Unlike the Elmer Fudd hunters who kill for sport, the Native Americans revered the animals they kill. They would pray for the animal spirit before killing it and leave behind offerings to its disembodied spirit. They didn't consider themselves superior to the animal and inferior in some ways because they must kill it to take its power. Christians had no respect for Native Americans. They almost completely destroyed these people so badly that some of them even became Christians themselves.
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| Sep 10 @ 10:57 PM |
The Myth of Changed Lives |
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Jankia
Posts: 11,900
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Christians had no respect for Native Americans. They almost completely destroyed these people so badly that some of them even became Christians themselves. True,all sorts of people and Christians from yesterday did have little respect for Native Americans.
But today that kind of kills the OP's idea that changed lives are a myth today doesnt it?
Native Americans leave the past right where it belongs...and so do people of today that have expierienced changed lives.
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| Sep 10 @ 11:01 PM |
The Myth of Changed Lives
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Deborah551
Posts: 1,015
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Once upon a time I became a vegetarian and drove my mom crazy. That lasted about a year and one day she was making one of her famous cheese burgers with onions and all I had to do was smell it and I became a carnivore again. Your story is similar to mine, Iam. I became a vegetarian when I was about 19. I gave up meat for almost a year and one day I just got this incredible craving for a burger. I call it my Big Mac Attack. I finally gave in and I was sick because I hadn't eaten any meat in such a long time that my body rebelled. But, I won't eat veal or rabbit and I won't cook it either. I think of them as pets and I couldn't eat an animal I'd own as a pet.
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| Sep 10 @ 11:11 PM |
The Myth of Changed Lives |
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iam01
Posts: 6,276
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True,all sorts of people and Christians from yesterday did have little respect for Native Americans. They did and why is that? They still do. Christians still continue to have little respect for other faiths. Look at these idiots disrupting the prayer opening by a Hindu Chaplin for the US Senate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ9To30Hz7A
The fact is Christians remain psychopaths who want freedom of religion only for themselves but want others banned. They only want their own brand of delusion to be heard.
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